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I am currently sat in the middle of a what army next process and it is striking me going through the army lists here and looking at whats winning games in tournaments that its nearly impossible in the current meta to have an army without a lot of bodies or decent screens.

Ideally I wanted to make something small and elite so I could take my time painting (in what little time I have) and not having to paint up a couple of 20+ units of models to be 'competitive'.

Ideas that have tempted me recently for small and elite (just to give you an idea):

Grey Knights: Paladins, terminators, flyers etc
Dark Angels: Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, speeders etc
Deathguard: Deathshroud, Mortarion, terminators.

Now I know with my lack of game time and competition experience that I am never going to top tabling some GT any time soon. But what are peoples opinions and lists looking like for small and elite, personally I think the problem is alpha strike happening to you.

PS: Personally I would collect a Tau or Ork force, but we have all seen how that is going for people at the moment XD

I think Death Guard does the "elite force" thing the best right now, though even then the poxwalker build is almost certainly superior.

Lots of "cool" options, but this is definitely a really hard/bad edition for small and elite armies. It still makes for a damn cool story though...

Honestly I think Dark angels terminators are going to be a fun army to play and be fairly competitive. dropping in an assault terminator squad with a heavy flamer or cyclone missile launcher will be pretty amazing.

Deathwing knights getting a 5 point ignore a psychic power on a 4+ is going to negate one of their weaknesses (once) that is of smite. with the new beta rules making smite spam harder this is going to be huge (I think anyway).

Dark Angels Flyers are pretty baller too.
dark talon being able to just drop mortal wounds on a 4+ once per game, hurricane bolters to shred melee, and the rift cannon with its possibility for d3 dmg + d3 mortal wounds yes please! 200 points, a bargain compared to what most armies get for the points in the flier category

Honestly, I'm just going to say that picking an army that you think will win you games is a poor choice in the long run. Better to go with something you'll enjoy playing, and enjoy aesthetically or thematically.

Low model number elite armies are not viable outside of casual play in 8th, it is as simple as that, 8th is hordehammer.

Main reason as i see it, is lack of decent anti horde weps after the removal of templates, and elite units not having enugh wounds as there is way too mutch multi wound weps in 8th.
(if it was up to me i would buff all 3 wound elite models to 5 wounds as default)

'I too favor low model elite armies as i in reality hate to paint but i have to resort to 500-750p casual games if i want to play that, and even there the horde armies are strong.

So i suggest you place your turny dreams on hold until the next edition and paint the elite army you love and play casualy with it in 8th.

They are fun to play, but they are win-big lose-big armies. Honestly, if you're opponent is really leaning into the current gunline meta and you don't get first turn, it goes south really fast.

Here's the thing with small, elite armies:

Expect to lose.

Build to rampage, you want to be Godzilla, with the expectation of being driven back into the ocean by the Japanese army, with the off chance that maybe things go badly for your opponent and you win (this actually happens more than you'd expect).

Also, tight, nasty, tough packages often force your opponent to make difficult decisions, sometimes they'll make the stupid one (again, happens more than you'd expect).

That being said, I usually try to aim for a couple things when I build lists like this:

1) If you can take the funnest part of your army and hold it off board to be brought in on your terms to use when you want, do that. It will insure that even if you're getting rolled you will hopefully have your one glorious turn of your army doing what you envisioned it doing, at least in some small regard.
2) Another option, take a few things that aren't easily erased in a turn, but that your opponent can't easily ignore. Hopefully, one of those things will survive and you'll get to stomp around and gloriously rampage a bit.
3) Forget objectives, you won't have the units to grab them, focus on killing as much as you possibly can, it's probably a hopeless task that you will fail to achieve, but believe it or not, there is a lot of satisfaction at the end of a game just knowing how much you destroyed with so little.
4) Expect to lose.

while I am not as pesemistic as the above comenators you leave yourself with one huge problem with an only elite army:

Alpha strikes.

You can not deny alpha strikes, and many army can pull of an alpha strike. Raven guard /alpha legion, tyranids, genstealer cultists, blood angels, orks with da jump, to name a few.

If they eat what ever they charge you are already down. Also 8th edition functions best when one unit can counter charge for another. This needs more units.

Also, you need objective grabbers.

A funn low model army I think would be a full on carnifex armie. Give them all sporocysts. Have your opponent be really frustrated.

I think the most effective "elite" armies will be ones with superheavies and flyers. Like maybe Sternguard and Storm Ravens, or Deathwatch and Corvus(?). Or Terminators and a Falchion. Stuff like that.

You're not going to be able to make an elite competitive army in 8th due to alpha strikes, fallback and how armor save penalties work. Unless you're using Guilliman and vehicles it just isn't going to be fun.

Of course, if you play fun games or against inexperienced players it will work.

You can't get much smaller and more elite then Custodes....

Ralis wrote:
You can't get much smaller and more elite then Custodes....

My Imperial Knight Household fields 3 models at 1500 points. Not that it's winning any tournaments.

Ralis wrote:
You can't get much smaller and more elite then Custodes....

they need an HQ sadly. it's coming though

BrianDavion wrote:

Ralis wrote:
You can't get much smaller and more elite then Custodes....

they need an HQ sadly. it's coming though

They also need something to get them to fights, some way of handling models with a Toughness higher than 5, some way of going further than 6" a turn, and some way of engaging models further than 12" away from them.

(They need their 30k arsenal, basically. 3-man squad minimums, Adrathic weapons, alternate guardian spear guns, teleportation transponders/arae-shrikes, the skimmers, dreadnaughts, Saggitarii, jetbikes...)

They're an army, and I've found it immensely disappointing that their 40k rules are for their Troops units stapled together into one entry, minus two thirds of their options, plus a couple of Marine vehicles sprayed gold.

Custodes in 40k are about as much of an army as Assassins are. That may change in the future, but for now they're an auxiliary force for other Imperium armies.

What niche do they fill that would make make them desirable for another army to take? It is a mystery. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How well do elite Tyranids and Eldar do? I haven't been following very closely.

 Nubgan wrote:
PS: Personally I would collect a Tau or Ork force, but we have all seen how that is going for people at the moment XD

Neither has a codex out yet, so things might change significantly. I'd also say that if you were interested in Tau now would be a good time to pick them up cheap. It looks like a lot of people are unloading them on eBay right now.

I often pick up things I like when they're doing poorly. I got a lot of Orks for ~80% off near the end of 7th, and a bunch of Tyranids for nearly the same discount. Once 8th dropped the extremely good deals on both Tyranids and Orks mostly went away, but ~50% off wasn't that hard to find. Once the Tyranid codex was released all the cheap deals on them dried up in a hurry. I think it more likely than not that will happen to Orks once our codex is released. Tau I'm not as sure about, but I think it's also pretty likely.


Also, how competitive do you want to be? You might be able to work out something semi-competitive and elite with Gargantuan Squiggoths, Tankbustas and Supa-Skorcha Big Trakks. It would be pretty expensive though. (Also that Gargantuan Squiggoth is sold out at them moment, IIRC.)

Elite armies just don't work with any competitive viability. They're just too point-inefficient.

The best you'll get would likely be Eldar Shining Spear spam with Dark Reaper backup, but they can still be overwhelmed.

How do you feel about vehicles? If you have an airbrush, you can achieve pretty decent tabletop quality quickly.

A somewhat competitive (although not top table quality) list could be a small harlequin battalion (3 troupes, 3 troupe masters, 3 starweavers) and an alaitoc air wing (mix of hemlocks and crimson hunters), that's about 1600pts for 18 infantry and 6 vehicles.
It would struggle against hordes, and is a bit difficult to expand upon. An Autarch + 3 squads of Shining Spears is ~400pts and would be a decent complement, but that's an additional 10 jetbike models.

Bear in mind that Harlequins are an absolute nightmare to paint with all that diamond hatching!

You can do an elite army to a degree with Orks, people in the competitive Ork thread have been having success with Nob squads in trucks and Battlewagons as they are only marginally less efficient than boyz.

Who says he has to do the diamond thingie though? His army, his painting.

Another option. Inquisition?

Not in a great place at the moment but very characterful.

 Kroem wrote:
Bear in mind that Harlequins are an absolute nightmare to paint with all that diamond hatching!

You can do an elite army to a degree with Orks, people in the competitive Ork thread have been having success with Nob squads in trucks and Battlewagons as they are only marginally less efficient than boyz.

I think you have mixed up two statements about nobz:

a) people are having success with nob squads in trukks and battlewagons
- or -
b) nobz are marginally less efficient than boyz

As soon as you add a trukk or battlewagon, efficiency compared to mobs of 30 boyz gets completely blown out the window since both transports are overcosted by a lot.
The reason why nobz work better in transport because boyz don't work well in small units, nobz do.
You should bring neither if you're trying to win a tournament.

 Nubgan wrote:
I am currently sat in the middle of a what army next process and it is striking me going through the army lists here and looking at whats winning games in tournaments that its nearly impossible in the current meta to have an army without a lot of bodies or decent screens.

Ideally I wanted to make something small and elite so I could take my time painting (in what little time I have) and not having to paint up a couple of 20+ units of models to be 'competitive'.

Ideas that have tempted me recently for small and elite (just to give you an idea):

Grey Knights: Paladins, terminators, flyers etc
Dark Angels: Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, speeders etc
Deathguard: Deathshroud, Mortarion, terminators.

Now I know with my lack of game time and competition experience that I am never going to top tabling some GT any time soon. But what are peoples opinions and lists looking like for small and elite, personally I think the problem is alpha strike happening to you.

PS: Personally I would collect a Tau or Ork force, but we have all seen how that is going for people at the moment XD

Never consider tournaments results and what is competitive at the moment when it comes to decide to start a new army. What is overpowered now can be useless just after a new FAQ, in fact units and lists are always shifting and changing in competitive 40k.

Keep in mind that tournaments aren't real 40k games, and competitive 40k is just a part of the hobby.

Just consider the miniatures and the style of playing you prefer. You love orks? By the time you collect a 1500-2000 points army they'll probably work in a completely different way than now.

If the goal is the same as mine which is.
"Man i wanna play a game of 40k, but i wanna be as lazy as humanly possible"
Knight house my man, If you get 4 knights thats easy 2k, and you can scale it to 1k, 1.5k super easy and its a fun list, you getta stop around with knights. Its by no means a weak list, but its also not a massive power gamer list. Run them as Chaos renagades so you can do silly stuff like run 2 avenger Gatling cannons. Then you can dump in 48 shots at something a turn with him.

 Nubgan wrote:
I am currently sat in the middle of a what army next process and it is striking me going through the army lists here and looking at whats winning games in tournaments that its nearly impossible in the current meta to have an army without a lot of bodies or decent screens.

Ideally I wanted to make something small and elite so I could take my time painting (in what little time I have) and not having to paint up a couple of 20+ units of models to be 'competitive'.

Ideas that have tempted me recently for small and elite (just to give you an idea):

Grey Knights: Paladins, terminators, flyers etc
Dark Angels: Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, speeders etc
Deathguard: Deathshroud, Mortarion, terminators.

Now I know with my lack of game time and competition experience that I am never going to top tabling some GT any time soon. But what are peoples opinions and lists looking like for small and elite, personally I think the problem is alpha strike happening to you.

PS: Personally I would collect a Tau or Ork force, but we have all seen how that is going for people at the moment XD

I guess it depends how much time you are taking. If you are taking a while orks or tau could work as you might delay until the codex releases.

Beyond that given the lack of competitive portion to this idea. Pick what you like the most (rules + models) and go with it.

If time is an issue, i kid you not, knights are super easy to paint up and get table top quality really easy. If you have an air brush, its even easier.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
If time is an issue, i kid you not, knights are super easy to paint up and get table top quality really easy. If you have an air brush, its even easier.

.... Apart from that theres not much that they have going for them though. If your opponent has a Shadowsword it's pretty much game over instantly. Had a cerastus Knight blown off the table before my first turn by one of that suckers. Fielding a Knight household gets old pretty quick too. For both sides of the table.

My Suggestion: Tyranids!

They do small model count like a champ. Carnifexes, Tyrants, Hive Guard, Haruspexes, Maleceptors, Exocrines, Zoanthropes, Neurothropes... Good stuff!

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
Bear in mind that Harlequins are an absolute nightmare to paint with all that diamond hatching!

You can do an elite army to a degree with Orks, people in the competitive Ork thread have been having success with Nob squads in trucks and Battlewagons as they are only marginally less efficient than boyz.

I think you have mixed up two statements about nobz:

a) people are having success with nob squads in trukks and battlewagons
- or -
b) nobz are marginally less efficient than boyz

As soon as you add a trukk or battlewagon, efficiency compared to mobs of 30 boyz gets completely blown out the window since both transports are overcosted by a lot.
The reason why nobz work better in transport because boyz don't work well in small units, nobz do.
You should bring neither if you're trying to win a tournament.

Ah entschuldigung I was doing exactly that.

Still, if all elite armies are bad then Orks are as good an option as any!

 Backspacehacker wrote:
If time is an issue, i kid you not, knights are super easy to paint up and get table top quality really easy. If you have an air brush, its even easier.

He's right, your opponent may take out 1 or 2 in their alpha strike, but you'll get to stomp around and blow some stuff up and have fun.

Another option is to bring a heavy deep strike contingent where you can take your remaining drops, keep them small, and stash them around your deployment zone to minimize the effect of your opponent's alpha strike.

Keep in mind that the one advantage you have with an elite army is the bonus to go first, so in that regard you have arguably the best defense available against alpha strikes.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
If the goal is the same as mine which is.
"Man i wanna play a game of 40k, but i wanna be as lazy as humanly possible"
Knight house my man, If you get 4 knights thats easy 2k, and you can scale it to 1k, 1.5k super easy and its a fun list, you getta stop around with knights. Its by no means a weak list, but its also not a massive power gamer list. Run them as Chaos renagades so you can do silly stuff like run 2 avenger Gatling cannons. Then you can dump in 48 shots at something a turn with him.

Along these lines maybe a Baneblade based list?