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Made in us
Flower Picking Eldar Youth





I am a fairly new player, and I really enjoy the fluff about 40k. So I have decided to exercise my imagination by writing a fanfic.
Long story short, (and without going into spoilers) it involves a battle between Craftworld Eldar and Tyranids. A group of Dire Avengers are trapped in a building and they have no way of getting an evac.

I have a curious question about Tyranid. First, I would like to say I know a good portion of Tyranids, but I may be overlooking this one. Would the opposing army understand that a Tyranid army relies on it's Synapse creatures to control the army's units?

This may seem like a dumb question, but I want to make sure I don't make any mistakes.
   
Made in us
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Little Rock, Arkansas

I don't read Eldar books but I know the imperials in books are quite aware of synapse and the importance of it no longer being alive.

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Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Same as above. If your average guardsmen knows the all important rule of "SHOOT THE BIG ONES FIRST!" then the elite soldiery of the Eldar would most likely know as well.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Yep, answer is pretty much everyone has figured it out by now (or at least think they do) even the tau. Also, factor in that all eldar are psykers to a lesser or greater degree and they would at a very base level be somewhat disturbed by the prescence of the Hive Mind/shadow in the warp.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/27 11:36:41


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not sure Orks figured it out but fortunately they go for the big ones anyway to make for a better scrap.

I'd say everyone else knows the little bugs lose coherence without their leaders and the Eldar would understand the psychic mechanics behind it more than most.
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

I don't know if the Eldars would figure it via their psychic powers, considering the Shadow in the Warp that comes with Tyranids invasion, but they'd probably figure it out pretty quickly otherwise.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





Eldar would be scratching their eyes out because of The Shadow. Safe to say they know about it.

And the Imperium has known about it a long time due to the Ordo Xenos. "Shoot The Big Ones" isn't doctrine for no reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 00:58:37


   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

Been thinking about this and personally I don't think any of the factions really know about the shadow per say with exception to Deamons, they all know th effects and it comes with tyranids, they know that the big bugs lead the lesser ones, but actually knowing for certain what it is, I'm not so sure, I'm only saying this as most of the fluff is written from the point of view of non tyranids so they could be wrong, so could i, but just the usual musing for me on the fluff forum.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




They'll know about Synapse creatures needing to die from previous experience Eldar have had with Tyranids but they don't really know more.
They certainly know about the Shadow in the Warps existence as well because their psychic ability makes them feel constant dread/fear within the Shadow of the Warp or worse if it actually attacks them psionically. They also know it blocks psychic communication because their equipment doesn't work properly.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Novice Knight Errant Pilot




 Formosa wrote:
Been thinking about this and personally I don't think any of the factions really know about the shadow per say with exception to Deamons, they all know th effects and it comes with tyranids, they know that the big bugs lead the lesser ones, but actually knowing for certain what it is, I'm not so sure, I'm only saying this as most of the fluff is written from the point of view of non tyranids so they could be wrong, so could i, but just the usual musing for me on the fluff forum.


They know. I'm currently reading Devastation of Baal and the collective leadership of Honestly-Not-A-Legion have long involved discussions about it, and plan tactics around it.

Then Guy Haley has to go a step farther and tries to give some tyranid perspective AND a third person omniscient POV that holds that they're underestimating it even still. I don't much care for it, to be honest. Far too much of the inevitable doom that awaits the galaxy and with no way to stop it that characterized some of the worst versions of the codex, which makes chaos just some guys, and orks a nuisance, and eldar and necrons annoying enemies that are sometimes allies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 03:48:24


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






Voss wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Been thinking about this and personally I don't think any of the factions really know about the shadow per say with exception to Deamons, they all know th effects and it comes with tyranids, they know that the big bugs lead the lesser ones, but actually knowing for certain what it is, I'm not so sure, I'm only saying this as most of the fluff is written from the point of view of non tyranids so they could be wrong, so could i, but just the usual musing for me on the fluff forum.


They know. I'm currently reading Devastation of Baal and the collective leadership of Honestly-Not-A-Legion have long involved discussions about it, and plan tactics around it.

Then Guy Haley has to go a step farther and tries to give some tyranid perspective AND a third person omniscient POV that holds that they're underestimating it even still. I don't much care for it, to be honest. Far too much of the inevitable doom that awaits the galaxy and with no way to stop it that characterized some of the worst versions of the codex, which makes chaos just some guys, and orks a nuisance, and eldar and necrons annoying enemies that are sometimes allies.


Thats actually my favorite part about nids. Nids are the real galactic threat. Necrons are right behind them. That star chart that lets then wink stars out of existence as easily as swiping left... if humanity ever became a big enough pain in the ass to the wrong necrons they would just remove Sol from existence and let Terra and Mars spin off into the void.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The Celestial Orrery or whatever they called it is sooooo dumb. But how are Crons behind Nids?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






pm713 wrote:
The Celestial Orrery or whatever they called it is sooooo dumb. But how are Crons behind Nids?


Because ultimately Crons want/need worlds to survive. Their own hubris and maddness prevents them from using the CO from just winking out stars because it's like them breaking their own toys. The nids don't give a feth. They are not corrupted by any such restrictions of ego. To quote Alien " I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." The perfect organism. The nids will over run the galaxy. It's not a question of it but when. The necrons could wipe out the galaxy to deny them a food source. And the nids would just move on to the next galaxy. WH ended because chaos won. 40k will end when the nids eventually over run everyone.

   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Alternatively, the Nids numbers are grossly misinterpreted and the Imperium will prevail.

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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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Huge Hierodule






Except the whole plot of 40k is that this is the twilight years of the imperium. Every look to the future, every prophecy, every mention is about the defiance of humanity standing on the brink of their doom as they crumble under the weight of their own xenophobia, bureaucracy, dogma, and hate.

While I doubt 40k will progress to the point of an actual end the way fantasy did any time remotely soon, the entire setting is built around this being the end for humanity.

Even IF the nids are grossly over estimated the Necrons have tech so disgustingly advanced that they actually killed a god and the universe permanently changed as a result. Something no other race has ever managed to accomplish. Nobody else can wipe out entire solar systems by looking at a hologram and chilling out in a chair. Do you honestly think humanity could ever come so close to winning against the necrons that they wouldn't just wipe all of humanities systems from reality out of spite?

Humanity has NO chance to win. Not against the nids. Not against the crons. And not against chaos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 11:47:11


   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

If the Necrons are allowed to wake up no, but that may take too long and allow humanity to kill them as Tombs emerge. And humanity can certainly stop the Nids. Chaos is a tricky thing to take care of, but if that's the only enemy left, the Imperium can handle it.

Edit: And wasn't there a mention of the fact that the Necrons don't want to use the Orrery because they'd be left with no planets to rule over? They may use it as way to intimidate opposition, but using it the second some opposition shows up seems counter productive.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 11:54:03


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






 Bobthehero wrote:
If the Necrons are allowed to wake up no, but that may take too long and allow humanity to kill them as Tombs emerge. And humanity can certainly stop the Nids. Chaos is a tricky thing to take care of, but if that's the only enemy left, the Imperium can handle it.

Edit: And wasn't there a mention of the fact that the Necrons don't want to use the Orrery because they'd be left with no planets to rule over? They may use it as way to intimidate opposition, but using it the second some opposition shows up seems counter productive.


Humanity certainly CANNOT take care of the nids. Did you miss how a tendril of Levithan (not the whole thing... just a tendril) was on the verge of entirely removing every blood angle and their descendent chapter from existance before that tendril got sent through the warp and showed up all over the galaxy? Humanity has made exactly no progress in stopping the nids. Kryptman diverted another tendril into the Orks and a 3rd tendril of leviathan is being fought by several chapter of SM a few fleets of the space navy and reinforcments from primaris and it's barely being slowed down while making a strait shot for terra. The few hive fleets they stopped (but didn't destroy) were the smallest hive fleets to ever show up with Levithan being larger then all other hive fleets combined when it arrived (all of which have been growing since they keep devouring worlds and gaining more biomass).

The Necrons in control of the Orrery are already awake. It's not about want. Necrons are more spiteful then any other thing in the galaxy. If humanity was ever in a position where it looked like the crons would actually loose to humanity what chance do you think there is that they wouldn't use the Orrery out of spite? They don't need to use it to beat humanity. And they wouldn't use it unless they felt like they had to because they would just be killing off worlds they feel like are theirs. But push comes to shove and humanity, against all odds, was going to win a war against the winners of the war in heaven... a battle so atrocious it makes the Horrus Heresy look like a play ground spat and is likely the single reason chaos is such a gak storm to begin with... you could be DAMN sure the Necrons would burn the whole place down just to give a big middle finger to humanity on the way out.

Again, there is no winning for humanity in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 12:25:30


   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Are we really sure a tendril is a not a whole Hive Fleet? Who's to say it isn't lies spread by Genestealer cultists in order to make the Nid threat bigger than it is in order to strike fear and despair. Furthermore, Hive Fleeth Behemoth has been destroyed and its going to take quite a while before the other wounded hive fleets recover from their losses, finding, travelling to and harvesting undefended worlds can't be done that quick, especially since Nids aren't supposed to travel fast.

The Orrery is kind of an immediate I-win button tho, so maybe sic the Eldars on it? I dunno, I'd concede it (or dismiss it, I really hate super OP stuff), considering how its makes everyone irrelevant

I am still unconvinced.

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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Posts with Authority




Saff-end, mate.

Humanity in general is underpowered. But it's still worth pointing out that they're probably the only faction that is fighting off all the others. They're on the DEFENSIVE. Everyone else, barring the Tau, are relatively decentralised and usually make the first move on the Imperium.

If you want to say that "Tyranids are OP because one tendril beat up Baal", then I can turn round and say "the Imperium's OP because one Space Marine Chapter, their PDF and the local auxilia wiped out a Tyranid Hive Fleet." After all - the Ultramarines did that with Behemoth.

Or how about Gorgon? Wiped out by the Tau Empire, a considerably smaller entity than the Imperium.

We don't know how large the Tyranid force is - as much as people claim all pro-Imperium stuff is just propaganda, the same can be said for ANY other faction, including Tyranids. Plus, as the Space Marine video game tells us, the Imperium had very nearly created a psychic weapon capable of exterminating ALL Orks, Tyranids, and generally Xenos from the galaxy (the Psychic Scourge). They're not the guaranteed winner by any means.

The Celestial Orrey is very powerful, yes, and yet the Necrons don't use it. It's not a weapon to them. Therefore, due to it's disuse as a military tool, it shouldn't be counted. Still, the Necrons ARE very capable - World Engines, the fall of the Orpheus Sector show us this. However, at the same time, we see things like the Damnos Campaign, where the Ultramarines destroy the Necrons on Damnos, or Mogul Kamir leading a cavalry charge on the Necrons, wiping them out. Necrons, wiped out by cavalry? Not quite so powerful.

Humanity is losing, but they've still got plenty of extremely powerful tech - Ark Mechanicus', the sheer manpower of the Astra Militarum, more territory than anyone else. Humanity isn't 100% fethed by any stretch - they just have to work harder.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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 Bobthehero wrote:
Are we really sure a tendril is a not a whole Hive Fleet? Who's to say it isn't lies spread by Genestealer cultists in order to make the Nid threat bigger than it is in order to strike fear and despair. Furthermore, Hive Fleeth Behemoth has been destroyed and its going to take quite a while before the other wounded hive fleets recover from their losses, finding, travelling to and harvesting undefended worlds can't be done that quick, especially since Nids aren't supposed to travel fast.

The Orrery is kind of an immediate I-win button tho, so maybe sic the Eldars on it? I dunno, I'd concede it (or dismiss it, I really hate super OP stuff), considering how its makes everyone irrelevant

I am still unconvinced.


Well first, hive fleets are nonsense. The imperium of man lables them hive fleets to describe different bodies of nids they are tracking around the galaxy. There is only one hive mind and all nids are a part of one macro organism. Just because the IoM breaks them down ino more easily understood chunks so they can try to understand them doesn't mean it's anything with any kind of meaning to the nids themselves. But otherwise, yes. Tendrils are not hive fleets. We know Leviathan at Baal was a tendril because at the same time Kyptman diverted another tendril into the Orks, that other tendril was working it's way towards terra, and some other splinters were off doing other things.

Nids don't travel at warp speeds, but nids DO have FTL. They latch onto a major gravity source and "fall" through space using specialized hive ships. They have to cut their FTL outside the solar system and travel through the system itself at sub light speeds but they don't have to travel at sublight speeds between systems. BTW when they latch onto those gravity sources it plays havoc on the planet itself while they travel, causing all kinds of earth quakes, tidal waves, volcanic activity, and generally turning the planet against itself until they arrive on the systems edge. Then the shadow falls and the whole system gets cut off from outside communication and reliable warp travel.

The nids as a species are a giant I-Win button. You can dislike I win buttons all you want, but they exist in the fluff for every faction, though some have them far more powerful then others, and dismissing them yourself doesn't mean they don't exist. If you want to ignore the Necrons vastly superior to anyones tech and the nids sheer insurmountable numbers and might to say "I think the imperium could win" then your free to enjoy your own head cannon where everything works out fine for the IoM because feth grim dark. But the setting of 40k is grim dark precisely because it's hopeless.

And Behemoth isn't dead.

"Caught between the guns of two imperial fleets, nearly all of Behemoth's bio-ships were destroyed. A scant few, scarred and battered, slipped away into the depths of space. Though it had suffered a grevious defeat, the galaxy had not heard the last of Behemoth."

Also... just to point out again, Behemoth nearly wiped out all of Ultramar until those 2 battlefleets showed up to take out the hive ships and Behemoth is the SMALLEST hive fleet to enter the galaxy. The SMALLEST hive fleet almost extinguished the Ultramarines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 13:27:47


   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

I think my view is still grimdark, except its hopeless for other factions, that still counts as grimdark, right?

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






 Bobthehero wrote:
I think my view is still grimdark, except its hopeless for other factions, that still counts as grimdark, right?


Because there is no real hope for the necrons or the nids. The nids never actually accomplish anything. Their just locusts. The necrons could extinguish everything or rule over it all, they would still be trapped as soulless monsters in their necrodermis shells "living" eternal lives of madness in a mockery of their past lives. The Eldar are still a dieing race. If chaos really fully won there wouldn't be enough sentient life to support their continued existance and they would end up killing themselves. The orks would just spend eternity beating themsevles up and looking for good fights. Actually... they get a happy ending for themselves. Humanity is currently one step removed from the Eldar. The only difference between the 2 is Humanity refuse to accept that they are on the way out and the Eldar know it.

   
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Saff-end, mate.

Lance, if you admit everyone has an "I win" button, then the Imperium has a chance.

Behemoth was still near annihilated by ONE Chapter and the fleet. The Tau Empire have survived more, and they ALSO completely blunted Hive Fleet Gorgon. Plus, seeing as "tendril" isn't a uniform size, it's completely logical to assume the Leviathan Baal tendril was abnormally large, and not indicative of tendril size. Just because the Space Wolves have more Marines than any other single Chapter doesn't mean that everyone has Space Wolves numbers. The same works for tendrils.

Everything has "hope". For humanity, the problem is "what is the cost of achieving that hope".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 15:07:16


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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Vigo. Spain.

Humanity has hope in the form of things like the Star Child theory, etc... but the "grimdarkness" is that humanity will negate hitself that hope based in hate and ignorance.
As lance said, the grimdark for the other factions comes with the realisation that even if they won... they will lost.
The only ones that if they won will end with a hopefull future are the Tau. But they are here to represent the bright empire that gets his hopes and idealism crushed by the reality of the galaxy.

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Lance, if you admit everyone has an "I win" button, then the Imperium has a chance.

Behemoth was still near annihilated by ONE Chapter and the fleet. The Tau Empire have survived more, and they ALSO completely blunted Hive Fleet Gorgon.


The ONE chapter had nothing to do with stopping the nids. It wasn't until the hive ships were forced to disengaged from the planet and reinforcments were no longer being sent down that the Ultramarines could make ANY headway. The fleets saved the UM skin. Gorgon is a splinter fleet that broke off from... Kraken? when it kept growing larger and larger. Gorgon is another very small one. Humanities I-Win buttons in the fluff is 1) Extermanatus weapons (which they will use liberally against their own planets because of how wide spread they are) and 2) Matt Ward level authors. Bear in mind that a good chunk of Extermatus level weapons 1) wouldn't stop the nids from redevourering all the biomass and moving on and 2) would barely scratch the paint on the necrons.

Plus, seeing as "tendril" isn't a uniform size, it's completely logical to assume the Leviathan Baal tendril was abnormally large, and not indicative of tendril size. Just because the Space Wolves have more Marines than any other single Chapter doesn't mean that everyone has Space Wolves numbers. The same works for tendrils.

Everything has "hope". For humanity, the problem is "what is the cost of achieving that hope".


Tendril isn't a size, it's a single hive fleet spread in multiple directions. Leviathan showed up all at once from beneath the galactic disk in a few giant lines hitting many areas of the imperium all at once and then began to spread inbetween the lines and out from the jaws. it was one massive fleet that spanned across a large section of the galactic disk. When you say its "A tendril of Leviathan" all your saying is it's NOT ALL of leviathan with no saying of size. But based on how massive the tendril heading for Terra is and how massive the tendril fighting the orks is it's fair to say it wasn't even most of Leviathan that was laying total waste to Baal.

A SPLINTER is a chunk of hive ships that actually breaks away from the core hive fleet becoming a small hive fleet of it's own. Developing new signature tactics or whatever and doing it's own thing instead of working in direct concert with the rest of the parent fleet.

I did say Leviathan was larger then all the fleets that came before it combined. Leviathan is massive and still growing. The biggest tendril of which isn't the now scattered splinters that were at Baal. It's the one heading for Terra.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 22:13:32


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Even standard virus bomb Exterminatus has not proven to be "I WIN" vs. Tyranids. In the 3rd edition Codex, Rippers are depicted burying themselves deep enough on purpose to survive the fire storm, and there is another Imperial report about what appeared to be a Carnifex having survived the fire storm and found regenerating.

The thing is both on the individual level (as shown in the Forge World book, Anphelion Project) and on the fleet level, the Tyranids are like an aggressive cancer. If you miss even a few surviving cancer cells, they can seed themselves elsewhere and start regrowing the whole thing all over again. We have seen individual Tyranids eventually recreate the whole Tyranid consumption ecosystem in Anphelion Project and as little as one surviving hive ship being enough to regrow a fleet. That is what happened with Kraken. Despite having two main forces destroyed at Ichar IV and Iyanden, surviving ships began feeding on vulnerable worlds deep past the Imperial defensive cordon, and regrew enough to become splinter fleets of their own.
   
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Thought of a new analogy. A tendril of a hive fleet is equivalent to a company of a chapter.

Saying a tendril of leviathan almost wiped the blood angles geneseed from existance is like saying a company of the ultramarines did some big great thing.

That should give you a better appreciation of the scale the nids opperate at. Humanity is caught up fighting individual battles on individual worlds The nids are fighting on a system wide scale as a single engagment dealing with a single battle on a galactic scale.

Everyone is woefully outmaned and out gunned.

   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Thought of a new analogy. A tendril of a hive fleet is equivalent to a company of a chapter.

Saying a tendril of leviathan almost wiped the blood angles geneseed from existance is like saying a company of the ultramarines did some big great thing.

That should give you a better appreciation of the scale the nids opperate at. Humanity is caught up fighting individual battles on individual worlds The nids are fighting on a system wide scale as a single engagment dealing with a single battle on a galactic scale.

Everyone is woefully outmaned and out gunned.


Well GW has at times tried to portray that scale but then inevitably Codex and Black Library writers end up portraying the human (or Eldar) protagonists as winning this significant battle that saves the day.

While it is true, that major victories at Macragge, Ichar, Iyanden, Tarsis Ultra, and Duriel/Valedor each broke the power of a major Tyranid advance, the Tyranids have still made gains elsewhere by consuming poorly defended worlds like isolated agri-worlds. The Imperium just does not have the resources to be equally strong everywhere at the same time, and the Tyranids seem willing to accept defeat in one area while quietly winning elsewhere so long as there is a net gain.
   
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






The tyranids might end the Imperium as an organization, but humanity can't be exterminated. There are a million worlds in the Imperium, and unknown more human occupied worlds, never mind space stations/colonies/fleets that aren't vulnerable to tyranid hive fleets via gravitational traction FTL. Much like the Eldar during the fall, there will always be people on the edges that survive and carry on. Even if the nids ate every naturally livable planet, humanity doesn't need planets to survive, or even to thrive.



   
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 John Prins wrote:
The tyranids might end the Imperium as an organization, but humanity can't be exterminated. There are a million worlds in the Imperium, and unknown more human occupied worlds, never mind space stations/colonies/fleets that aren't vulnerable to tyranid hive fleets via gravitational traction FTL. Much like the Eldar during the fall, there will always be people on the edges that survive and carry on. Even if the nids ate every naturally livable planet, humanity doesn't need planets to survive, or even to thrive.




Yeah? You think in 40k those isolated places grow their own food instead of having it shipped in from agri worlds and divided up as rations?

If the nids actually consume every world those isolated not planet or system bound structures are fethed to a slow starving death.

   
 
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