Your thoughts on new Tyranids Codex?

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**streamdragon**

Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!

**Jancoran**

streamdragon wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!

Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.

**streamdragon**

Jancoran wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!

Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.

No, that is pretty much exactly what you said. Just in simpler and less floofy words that try to hide the point you're trying to make.

**Gunzhard**

streamdragon wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.

My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper

Pretty sure that Shrikes didn't change, but otherwise the list looks right.

Mostly it's just that cheaper does not always equal better, especially when the power level of models went down as the points when down. A prime example: Trygons (see what i did there?) got 10 points cheaper, but lost their rerolls to hit in melee. I'd gladly pay the 10 points for that.

Only a handful of models came down in price without taking a nerf in the process, and of those that did, only an even smaller handful of those became suddenly useful.

Zoanthropes took a versatility and IMO power hit. Brotherhood of Psykers is not as good as 3 individual users.

Pyrovore: You could drop this thing another 10 PPM and STILL no one would take it. Without Spods or Torrent, it is pretty much DoA.

Lictors: 15 points cheaper, gained infiltrate. Good buffs for an underused model. It still lost its rerolls (but gained an attack) and lost rending on Flesh Hooks.

Termagants: lost their TS/AG AND LD from a nearby Tervigon. You want those biomorphs, you pay MORE per model than previously. Was the tervigon cut in price or did it remain the same for losing this ability? Nope, we all know how that turned out.

Hormagaunts: Lost their rerolls in CC. -1PPM not really big enough to make someone take Horms over Terms. Should really have come down to the same price point.

Carnifex: Was stupidly overpriced before (so you never saw them). Down to where they should have been, but lost an attack in the process. Making a CC fex? They get the attack back, but still lost their rerolls. There's also almost 0 reason to take crushing claws anymore, imo.

Trygon has been covered.

There are definitely some buffed units:
Biovores: The new spore rule is strange and should probably have been 1 mine per biovore to make full broods more worthwhile than single models, but enh.
Tyrannofex: That you could drop 75 points off this guy shows how insanely priced he was. As it is, the only thing he really has going for him over other models in this slot is that 2+, which we lost anywhere else.

As to "there is no combination I could make that is more expensive", you're just not trying hard enough. Did you previously pay points to have a Tervigon (as a troop) with TS/AG to pass onto Termagants? Welp, there you go. If you want those Terms with TS/AG, and that Terv as a troop you're paying WAY more than you used to.

Old
10x Term: 50
Terv w TS/AG: 180
Total: 230

New
30x Term w TS/AG: 240
Terv: 195
Total: 435
(Keep in mind, that Tervigon no longer has TS/AG himself, that'd be another 25 points)

But let's pretend we don't care about TS/AG on Terms
30x Term: 120
Terv: 195
Total : 315

Still 85 points more, AND less effective to boot!

Yeah again you are talking about the one Tervigon-net-build... but based on the ideas in this thread - Tau would snipe that thing dead in turn 1 anyway leaving you with no Tervigon and certainly no TS/AG.

**MWHistorian**

I think I'll get a few more Thunderfire cannons for my SM's and a few more flammers for my SOB with exorcists to target the big boys.
Target everything at the synapse creatures.

I'm not saying that it will be easy, far from it. A Nid list can and will win sometimes. But against an opponent that knows what they're doing with a half decent list its very much an uphill battle. That may be alright for some.

That's not my complaint. My complaint is the copy and past job they did with the dex and the lazy almost random way they wrote the rules.
Its a weak codex.
It's also a poorly written one that won't gain many new nid players and has turned a few current nid players away. (not good business sense)
Me, I play SOB so I'm used to uphill battles so people that think I'm complaining because I'm a WAAC player? Hardly. But I also don't want to play an army that self destructs if my player happens to know what to shoot at.

**sgtpjbarker**

I just re-read the data slate preview and it mentions

"Spores of varying shapes and sizes plunge towards the ground. "

So it looks like Spore pods are in after all, we just have to wait for the models.

**kirsanth**

Jancoran wrote:

Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.

Which is an odd desire given the codex in discussion.

Once I can be competitive to top-tier armys with the Tyranid Codex as printed I can discuss why it is not competitive?
If not it is because of me, not the book.
Right?

That reads like an idiot's statement. I hope I misread.

**fartherthanfar**

Im goign to do like the nay-sayers and only focus on one side of the codex, only thing is im looking on the good side

flyrants gained +1 Bs, +1 psychic level and cost 30 poitns less
Deathleaper cost 15pts less and is about as strong as before

Tervigons can get a second gun each

termagaunts are 20% cheaper and can choose to only upgrade some of the team to devourers

Harpies are 10pts less got +1W and +1 Att

Lictors gained fear, assault grenades, +1 Att, infiltrator and cost 15pts less

Zoanthropes cost 10 pts less

Venomthropes got major buffs!!!!

Shrikes cost 5pts less, TS cost 2 pts/models less and scything talons gives an extra attack. (im gonna be using shrikes this edition, sometimes)

Carnifex got a 40pts reduction

Tyranofex got a 70pts reduction

Exocrines and Crones where added and they are both really cool.

lots of good stuff

And even more stuff

I wont go into what we lost cuz the general spirit here is to avoid the other side of the argument right?

**kirsanth**

I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.

Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!

Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.

**Kain**

The GW apologists are on the most bizarre of quixotic crusades to defend the honor of a bunch of paper.

Are they personally offended that we think GW can and should have done much better?

**Jancoran**

streamdragon wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!

Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.

No, that is pretty much exactly what you said. Just in simpler and less floofy words that try to hide the point you're trying to make.

You sir, don't know me well enough. So I am gonna' let that slide.

By the way, are you the former or the latter?

**Gunzhard**

kirsanth wrote:
I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.

Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!

Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.

Lol ...I bet you are pissed that Genestealer Cults are gone too. Let it go dude - let your old Tervigon-netlist go, this is a new book for a new edition, take an objective look at it.

This whole thread is just a tat for tat comparison and it's totally skewed and inaccurate ...for one thing, most of the units are cheaper _with_ the useful upgrades.

**Jancoran**

...or at worst the same cost with the upgrades in some cases.

The Genestealers actually are VERY interesting to me with their Broodlords power. I DEFINITELY would explore that more were I to play Tyranids.

**fartherthanfar**

Gunzhard wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.

Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!

Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.

Lol ...I bet you are pissed that Genestealer Cults are gone too. Let it go dude - let your old Tervigon-netlist go, this is a new book for a new edition, take an objective look at it.

This whole thread is just a tat for tat comparison and it's totally skewed and inaccurate ...for one thing, most of the units are cheaper _with_ the useful upgrades.

Tottaly agree that even with upgrades things are still cheaper and in some case ALSO more usefull

**Arbiter_Shade**

Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

**Carnage43**

Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

I largely agree. New codexs should aim for the middle, and not the top, to create a properly balanced game. The main problem with that is that isn't how GW does things. A new codex can literally be the best in the game, or mid-tier, but almost never the absolute worst. Therefore, any new book that starts at mid-tier (5th edition nids, current nids, current Dark Angels....etc) is only going to slide downwards as the odd new book pops to the top of the list. With very very few exceptions, an army will only get worse over time in relation to other armies that get updated (The only exception I can think of off-hand is 6th edition nids getting a big boost with Biomancy).

With nids STARTING on the lower end of middle tier (Call it 14 armies overall I think, not including supplements, I'd peg nids between 9th and 11th) there's really nowhere to go but down from here.

**Ravenous D**

Here's the reality of the situation.

Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.

**Psienesis**

Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?

Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).

So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.

**ZebioLizard2**

Psienesis wrote:
Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?

Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).

So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.

The problem is at those points is that they were far less painful. 4th edition even gave Eternal warrior with it.

2Nd edition nids were unique in that they got their own special cards and things that others did not.

**Ravenous D**

Psienesis wrote:
Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?

Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).

So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.

And in 3rd they had mutable creatures so every troop had a hive node that made them pretty much independent of synapse. And minuses to Ld were based on outnumbering not on wounds.

In 4th you had Nidzilla and stealer shock

In 5th it sucked and the only way to win was tervigon spam and speed bump people to death. Then 6th gave them biomancy and they became mid tier.

Those are examples of being compensated for being penalized for synapse. As for vanilla marines, they have chapter tactics, which work as army wide buffs that you can mix and match as you please with allies, as well as 'and they shall know no fear' which is dumb good. Oh and grav weapons.

**Gunzhard**

Ravenous D wrote:
Here's the reality of the situation.

Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.

Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).

Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:

"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"

"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"

"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"

"Tau will snipe you dead"

"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"

"this book sucks - Tau are too powerful"

**Psienesis**

Grav Weapons are only situationally useful... if you go up against low-armor armies, Grav Guns aren't that impressive.

Chapter Tactics aren't all that and a bag of chips. They're flavorful, and sometimes cool (and probably should not apply to allies from a different Codex), but I can't think of one that is OTT. OTT would be like giving Necrons 2+ RP rolls.

The mutants Nids had back in the day was based on how many different units you took in your total army build, and then only went from there. Someone tried to explain it to me, but it was too complicated for my (at the time) Ork mind. I seem to recall that there were some pretty stringent limits placed on how many mutants you could have, and of what type.

ATSKNF is kind of broken, but it's always been broken, but it's also not a "trick". It's an always-on sort of deal, not like a "You did X, so I can do Y, which lets me also do ABC, 123 and 7,8 and 9, too!" sort of deal. Not like, say, Warp Quake shenanigans. Or MSS. MSS in general is a trick. Or...ah.. whats-his-face... the guy who replaces other guys who kill him... whatever, that guy.

**MWHistorian**

Gunzhard wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:
Here's the reality of the situation.

Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.

Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).

Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:

"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"

"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"

"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"

"Tau will snipe you dead"

"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"

"this book sucks - Tau are too powerful"

If you honestly believe that's what the complaints are, then your reading comprehension sucks. There are legitimate problems with the dex and pointing them out shouldn't hinder you from having fun. If you like the dex, then go for it.

**Ravenous D**

Gunzhard wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:
Here's the reality of the situation.

Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.

Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).

Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:

"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"

"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"

"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"

"Tau will snipe you dead"

"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"

"this book sucks - Tau are too powerful"

You aren't comprehending this....

In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.

Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.

Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*

*Not a real tactic, in case you're being thick.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:
Grav Weapons are only situationally useful... if you go up against low-armor armies, Grav Guns aren't that impressive.

okay sure. Tiggy and his 6 buddies disagree.

Psienesis wrote:
Chapter Tactics aren't all that and a bag of chips. They're flavorful, and sometimes cool (and probably should not apply to allies from a different Codex), but I can't think of one that is OTT. OTT would be like giving Necrons 2+ RP rolls.

And more then a dozen variations including the forgeworld ones.

Psienesis wrote:
The mutants Nids had back in the day was based on how many different units you took in your total army build, and then only went from there. Someone tried to explain it to me, but it was too complicated for my (at the time) Ork mind. I seem to recall that there were some pretty stringent limits placed on how many mutants you could have, and of what type.

Not complicated or restrictive, Ld10 fast moving hormagants and T7 S7 2+ save tyrants.

**kirsanth**

Gunzhard wrote:
Lol ...I bet you are pissed that Genestealer Cults are gone too

Goon.
YES. Anyone that would type that is a fething goon. I despise the cults.
Genestealer cults have more use than you do, however.

**bodazoka**

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Honestly? No, I never plan on running Zoanthropes because I don't have enough elite slots. This is where I am really feeling the crunch because I am going to auto include two groups of one Venomthropes to give my army the coverage it needs and fill the other slot with the, admittedly bad but awesome looking, Haruspex. Or maybe some Hive Guard if I ever feel like playing them again.

I don't think that the problem is synapse range, I think the problem is how hard it is to keep your synapse alive when playing against a semi decent opponent.

I see that, there is some competition there mostly because you want to auto include 2 x Venomthrope slots in the army! Have you tried the JY2 trick with the bastion? (or some similar large fortress) to increase the range of the Venomthrope and maybe then it justifies taking just the 1? I personally also like the option of the comms relay as I like to reserve.

I'm going to try and test a couple of the lists further back in the thread which are allot less reliant on synapse also.

**fartherthanfar**

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.

And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:

2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)

those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex

**the shrouded lord**

fartherthanfar wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.

And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:

2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)

those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex

Oh, please DO tell us.

**Carnage43**

fartherthanfar wrote:

I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.

And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:

2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)

those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex

Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.

We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.

**Gunzhard**

Ravenous D wrote:

You aren't comprehending this....

In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.

Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.

Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*

I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.