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 Gunzhard wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists

OK, so how often do you play against people that understand game play and design an army around it?

My group are all veteran gamers, but if you're seriously telling me the new synapse has you that stumped I question if you fall into that category.

"New synapse" does not have me stumped but it combined with the rest of the book as an infinitesimal number of folks willing to rematch me with swapped armies.
People used to want to swap with me to prove that it was the list that was the issue.

Past tense.

Good luck with your intended rub though.

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that.

I'm kinda' feeling the exact opposite. Monster Smash is back in town with double Flyrants, a Tervigon, a HS section filled with MCs and a Lords of War gargantuan creature. Supported by Venomthropes of course. And some min-maxed spinegaunt broods (like 1x30 for the Tervigon and 1x20 for camping) too.

In case anyone is so late to the party to think that the complaints are "Tyranids cannot win."

You are wrong and ignoring the problem.

 Kain wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
your constant use of ad-hom.

You can't accuse someone of Ad Homenim and then follow it up with

Your a very silly person Squig.

On account of that being, well, Ad Homenim.

No that's just an insult.

An Ad Hominem is attacking someone's credibility as an argument.

So saying "You're wrong because X, also you're an idiot" is perfectly logically sound. Saying "You're wrong because you're an idiot" is fallacious.

TFW I didn't even have to reply.

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.

Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.

The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!

And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?

I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.

As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that

Without synaps your not moving fast anywhere . There is not outside of the bubble . Nids need it to work and opponents know that killing them will be a huge boon for them . And in a game where there is ignore cover stuff , D weapons and ally in case your army doesn't have any of the first two keeping something alive is far from easy.

 Carnage43 wrote:

TL-BL Devourers;
75% chance to hit
-------
Against AV10: 4 to glance, 5+ to pen; 12.5% chance to glance, 25% chance to pen (4.166 to kill straight up) x 6 = 2HP, 0.25 Kills
Against AV11; 5 to glance, 6 to pen; 12.5% chance to glance, 12.5% chance to pen (2.08 to kill straight up) x 6 = 1.37 HP, 0.125 kills
Against AV12; 6 to glance; 12.5% chance to take a hull point x6 = 0.75HP

TL-BL dev are just straight up better against AV10, period
Against AV11, marginally less likely to explode the vehicle outright (1.5% difference) but averages 1.37 hull points to lance's 0.36. Win for TL-BL devs IMO.
Against AV12, Devs cannot kill it straight out, but is averaging more hull points worth of damage still. Combined with the second BL-devourer, I'd score twin-BL devourers over Warp lance + BL dev higher, since you can just glance something to death faster.

Overall....I don't think Warp lance it worth firing at anything but an AV13+ ground vehicle (or that ONE AV13 flyer of course). Frankly, I write warp blast off as a mediocre power for Winged tyrants, right up there with The Horror and Dominion.

Thanks for doing the math, but just wanted to point out one thing.

Tyrants are BS4 now, so twin-linked devourers with worms hit something like 89% of the time instead of 75%.

Which just further skews the numbers in favor of the TL-Dw/BLW.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.

Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.

The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!

And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?

I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

Makumba wrote:

As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that

Without synaps your not moving fast anywhere . There is not outside of the bubble . Nids need it to work and opponents know that killing them will be a huge boon for them . And in a game where there is ignore cover stuff , D weapons and ally in case your army doesn't have any of the first two keeping something alive is far from easy.

This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.

Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?

Here's a better way to look at it.
I'm a Tau player. I have a weapon that ignores cover.

If I kill marines, orks, necrons, or whatever have you then I will kill one unit with little impact on the rest of the army.

If I kill a synapse creature, then I will hurt multiple units.

Oh god, Tyranids got the 4th ed Tau Ethereal.

streamdragon wrote:

Thanks for doing the math, but just wanted to point out one thing.

Tyrants are BS4 now, so twin-linked devourers with worms hit something like 89% of the time instead of 75%.

Which just further skews the numbers in favor of the TL-Dw/BLW.

Damnit...editted. Basically makes the TL-BL devourer better against everything.

Gunzhard wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?

I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

My last list off hand...the tourny was in May, so I might be a touch off;

260 Winged Tyrant, 2xTL-BL devs (-30 points now, and pretty much worse because of the loss of biomancy)

130 Doom in a pod (GONEEEEEEE.....)
100 2 Hive Guard (+10 points now, and -1 BS)

200 Tervigon, 2 powers, toxin-sacs (Don't even know where to start.....loss of biomancy is crippling, not to mention the loss of the 2 extra powers, doesn't support gaunts with toxin-sacs or LD 10 for counter attack)
50 10 termigants (save 10 points here now)
200 Tervigon, 2 powers, toxin-sacs
50 10 termigants
-----------------------------
Need 40 more gaunts to make this legal again

210 Trygon, Toxin-sacs (-10 points now! WOO! Only lost 22-25% of his melee ability to balance that out)
210 Trygon, Toxin-sacs
90 2 Biovores (I'd have sworn I had 3, but it doesn't math out properly. -5 points now I think? No real changes otherwise.)
-----
1500.

I think it mathed out at -60 points in reduced units, +10 for HG and I need another 40 gaunts, so that's 130 lost there. 130 points of models that will never see the table again.

As for my point about "nothing getting cheaper", it was a somewhat flawed point I guess. Lots of stuff got cheaper, but they also got WORSE. There are very very few units that are better off now than they were before this book....mainly carnifexes, venomthropes, biovores and tyranno-fexes. Even in those cases, the changes were not enough (except venoms, which I'm actually not unhappy with).

 Gunzhard wrote:

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

This reads as "I just wrote a list proving that things got cheaper."

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

This reads as "I just wrote a list proving that things got cheaper."

Please fix your quote. I didn't say that.

Oops.
Apologies.

This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.

Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?

the old codex nids were far away from being auto win .They were realy hard to play , but skilled people could do something with them . I wasn't one of them , I play IG . If it was out for my army being good , I should be happy about nids new codex.
Nids right now are like oldcrons . They have a rule build in to their codex that makes them lose . If all nids were base Ld 9-10 one could say that synaps is just a random factor , added for flavor and fluff . But nids are not Ld 9-10. The synaps they have now makes units that are technicly better , like a flyarant, worse then the weaker one , like a foot tyrant. No army that forces someone to play weaker units will be better , then one that didn't have to do it .

Above the being or not being allowed to play against tau , there are no such things in the rules .

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Here's a better way to look at it.
I'm a Tau player. I have a weapon that ignores cover.

If I kill marines, orks, necrons, or whatever have you then I will kill one unit with little impact on the rest of the army.

If I kill a synapse creature, then I will hurt multiple units.

Oh god, Tyranids got the 4th ed Tau Ethereal.

I think this is a good way of putting it.

The thing for me is that synapse now seems like a severely detrimental rule, for no real gain.

I mean, what units do tyranids have that are so overpowered they require this rule to balance the out?

 vipoid wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Here's a better way to look at it.
I'm a Tau player. I have a weapon that ignores cover.

If I kill marines, orks, necrons, or whatever have you then I will kill one unit with little impact on the rest of the army.

If I kill a synapse creature, then I will hurt multiple units.

Oh god, Tyranids got the 4th ed Tau Ethereal.

I think this is a good way of putting it.

The thing for me is that synapse now seems like a severely detrimental rule, for no real gain.

I mean, what units do tyranids have that are so overpowered they require this rule to balance the out?

Fearless.

That's about it, really :/

Oh, you asked for units.

Fearless...carnifexes?

Makumba wrote:

This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.

Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?

the old codex nids were far away from being auto win .They were realy hard to play , but skilled people could do something with them . I wasn't one of them , I play IG . If it was out for my army being good , I should be happy about nids new codex.
Nids right now are like oldcrons . They have a rule build in to their codex that makes them lose . If all nids were base Ld 9-10 one could say that synaps is just a random factor , added for flavor and fluff . But nids are not Ld 9-10. The synaps they have now makes units that are technicly better , like a flyarant, worse then the weaker one , like a foot tyrant. No army that forces someone to play weaker units will be better , then one that didn't have to do it .

Above the being or not being allowed to play against tau , there are no such things in the rules .

This all over, the new nids are now like oldcrons where you have to take certain units or autolose. And it just so happens that these units are also highly focusable and oftentimes not that good or have their effectiveness restricted by having to keep all the units in order instead of doing damage like they should do, e.x. zoans sitting back popping dominion instead of pew pewing with warp blast.

Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.

 kirsanth wrote:
Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.

Except it hasn't been a month yet.

In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.

. . . and scene.

What?

I don't follow.

Wait a year really?! Why not just wait till 8th edition so we can look back and compare the entire run of 6th ed armies through 7th edition as well?

Also the only thing that will change is a few armies that aren't Tau and Eldar, which won't affect how survivable Nids are.

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble

Ah. Yes. "Use tactics". Excellent.

Meaningless.

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

This reads as "I just wrote a list proving that things got cheaper."

I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.

My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble

Well, I guess if you get First Blood, you could always knock your opponent unconscious and hope the game times out before he comes round...

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.

Except it hasn't been a month yet.

In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.

I'm not commenting on the state of the codex but I can't help but laugh at this.

Cmon guys the weekend isn't over yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys it's only been a week give it a chance.
Cmon guys it hasn't even been a month yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys give it at least a year.


I'm sorry, but this is all I've been hearing from the defenders for the past week.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.

Except it hasn't been a month yet.

In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.

I'm not commenting on the state of the codex but I can't help but laugh at this.

Cmon guys the weekend isn't over yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys it's only been a week give it a chance.
Cmon guys it hasn't even been a month yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys give it at least a year.


I'm sorry, but this is all I've been hearing from the defenders for the past week.

But, that is a comment on the state of the codex.

These 25 pages of nonsense remind of those the folks still pissed about losing the Genestealer Cult, it was 15 something years ago, let it go... the brief romance with Nidzilla is dead or changed, the standard Tervigon spam net-list is dead or changed - we have something new, it's different, but it allows you to put huge numbers of bread-and-butter troops on the table which really is the essence of the bug army and very effective for winning most missions.

What I'm hearing here is - well the Tau, since we all only play against Tau, will simply snipe all of your Warriors, all of your Shrikes, Zoanthropes, Trygon Primes and HQ synapse etc in the 3 turns before you eat them with a mass assault, and you will fail all leadership rolls, then roll 1-3 on the FEED chart and your entire army will eat itself... That IS frightening.

 Gunzhard wrote:
I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.

My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper

Pretty sure that Shrikes didn't change, but otherwise the list looks right.

Mostly it's just that cheaper does not always equal better, especially when the power level of models went down as the points when down. A prime example: Trygons (see what i did there?) got 10 points cheaper, but lost their rerolls to hit in melee. I'd gladly pay the 10 points for that.

Only a handful of models came down in price without taking a nerf in the process, and of those that did, only an even smaller handful of those became suddenly useful.

Zoanthropes took a versatility and IMO power hit. Brotherhood of Psykers is not as good as 3 individual users.

Pyrovore: You could drop this thing another 10 PPM and STILL no one would take it. Without Spods or Torrent, it is pretty much DoA.

Lictors: 15 points cheaper, gained infiltrate. Good buffs for an underused model. It still lost its rerolls (but gained an attack) and lost rending on Flesh Hooks.

Termagants: lost their TS/AG AND LD from a nearby Tervigon. You want those biomorphs, you pay MORE per model than previously. Was the tervigon cut in price or did it remain the same for losing this ability? Nope, we all know how that turned out.

Hormagaunts: Lost their rerolls in CC. -1PPM not really big enough to make someone take Horms over Terms. Should really have come down to the same price point.

Carnifex: Was stupidly overpriced before (so you never saw them). Down to where they should have been, but lost an attack in the process. Making a CC fex? They get the attack back, but still lost their rerolls. There's also almost 0 reason to take crushing claws anymore, imo.

Trygon has been covered.

There are definitely some buffed units:
Biovores: The new spore rule is strange and should probably have been 1 mine per biovore to make full broods more worthwhile than single models, but enh.
Tyrannofex: That you could drop 75 points off this guy shows how insanely priced he was. As it is, the only thing he really has going for him over other models in this slot is that 2+, which we lost anywhere else.

As to "there is no combination I could make that is more expensive", you're just not trying hard enough. Did you previously pay points to have a Tervigon (as a troop) with TS/AG to pass onto Termagants? Welp, there you go. If you want those Terms with TS/AG, and that Terv as a troop you're paying WAY more than you used to.

Old
10x Term: 50
Terv w TS/AG: 180
Total: 230

New
30x Term w TS/AG: 240
Terv: 195
Total: 435
(Keep in mind, that Tervigon no longer has TS/AG himself, that'd be another 25 points)

But let's pretend we don't care about TS/AG on Terms
30x Term: 120
Terv: 195
Total : 315

Still 85 points more, AND less effective to boot!

Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.