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Not to change the subject from hating the ship or discussion of Orks in this Space Wolves thread but had a look over of my models about this whole GH are bolter/bolt pistol and BC are bolt pistol/CCW but GH have the option of trading their bolter for a CCW.

And it got me wondering, say that rumour does become true, anybody got any plans on whether a Bolter/BP GH is preferred more than a BP/CCW GH? Because I'm looking at the Stormwolf and thinking about what Bulldogging said about the skyshield landing pad idea and it's giving me expensive ideas.

 insaniak wrote:
This picture is spot on:

Spoiler:

Slap some jet engines on that, and you've essentially got the Stormthingoe.

Which, given the general WWII-ish aesthetic in 40K vehicles, is perfect for a landing craft.

I just kind-of wish that they had left the Stormthingoe as a transport and added the Talon for gunship support.

Yeah as a transport it looks fine and especially fits the general ww2 theme of the imperium stuff which I don't mind tbh and why I'm somewhat partial to the model. Double role as a guncraft... it would need a lot more guns requiring a *lot* more ammo to make that blocky appearance semi realistic. more like a floating artillery base than a gunship.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I think I can manage the skull molded on since I play Iron Warriors and I could just paint it gold. I'm less sure about the work involved in removing stuff from the ramps and the sides of the flyer. I can't wait to see the sprues!!!!!!

Ditto im looking forward to seeing the sprues. I really hope all that wolf insignia crap is optional.

 insaniak wrote:
The lack of aerodynamics doesn't bother me... it's a futuristic plane, who the hell knows how it flies.

It's more the fact that it just doesn't look like a particularly agile craft (which is what I would expect from a gunship) that doesn't work for me.
Well, that and the missile sponsons directly in front of those massive jet intakes. I can't see that ending well.

I think it's fine as a troop-carrying dropship, and that there's a variant where someone figured out to improvise a BFG on it. I'm actually more annoyed that there's yet another chapter specific machine, and that GW needs to constantly invent a new Wolfy McWolferson tech item to slap on every new piece of gear, especially when half of the Imperium's fluff is that they're against any unsanctioned tech. Also, it's YET ANOTHER piece of wargear with it's own little special rule, as if there weren't enough of those. They're basically pissing on fluff AND game design at the same time.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Not to change the subject from hating the ship or discussion of Orks in this Space Wolves thread but had a look over of my models about this whole GH are bolter/bolt pistol and BC are bolt pistol/CCW but GH have the option of trading their bolter for a CCW.

And it got me wondering, say that rumour does become true, anybody got any plans on whether a Bolter/BP GH is preferred more than a BP/CCW GH? Because I'm looking at the Stormwolf and thinking about what Bulldogging said about the skyshield landing pad idea and it's giving me expensive ideas.

It depends on their roll.
Plasma-Gun Armed: Keep The Bolt Guns, they are me mid ranged Gunline Unit.
Melta-Gun Armed: Not Sure, will pull out my Models and see and how much remodeling I will have to do.
Flamer Armed: I think they will end up with Bolt Pistols and Chain Swords.

Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:Not to change the subject from hating the ship or discussion of Orks in this Space Wolves thread but had a look over of my models about this whole GH are bolter/bolt pistol and BC are bolt pistol/CCW but GH have the option of trading their bolter for a CCW.

And it got me wondering, say that rumour does become true, anybody got any plans on whether a Bolter/BP GH is preferred more than a BP/CCW GH? Because I'm looking at the Stormwolf and thinking about what Bulldogging said about the skyshield landing pad idea and it's giving me expensive ideas.

Bolter/BP will most likely still be the best loadout. Shooting is king in 7th, and with Counter Attack your Grey Hunters are still getting an extra attack. Better to have all the rounds of shooting I think.

Plus if Blood Claws are coming down in price far enough to be valid, you don't really need your Grey Hunters trying to fill the assault role.

prowla wrote:I'm actually more annoyed that GW needs to constantly invent a new Wolfy McWolferson tech item to slap on every new piece of gear, especially when half of the Imperium's fluff is that they're against any unsanctioned tech. Also, it's YET ANOTHER piece of wargear with it's own little special rule, as if there weren't enough of those.

Don't they do this for all of the space marine chapters though? Back when Blood Angels came out, they got dreadnought rocket chain punches. When 'vanilla' SM came out, we got Grav weapons. Dark Angels get their... whatever they get, I admittedly don't know Dark Angels. Don't they get a -1T grenade or something?

 streamdragon wrote:
Dark Angels get their... whatever they get, I admittedly don't know Dark Angels. Don't they get a -1T grenade or something?

The re-introduction of Power Fields and Displacer Fields, and their own flyers.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
It looks like a piece of a ship that broke off during atmospheric entry.

That said, it'll probably be av14, immune to melta, can change the missile launchers to twin linked battle cannons for five points and has an optional bomb-bay that drops Lone Wolves with dual hammers and stormshields.

They've already posted the rules dude. Next time read the thread before you make a fool of yourself.

Thanks, dad.

 streamdragon wrote:

Don't they do this for all of the space marine chapters though? Back when Blood Angels came out, they got dreadnought rocket chain punches. When 'vanilla' SM came out, we got Grav weapons. Dark Angels get their... whatever they get, I admittedly don't know Dark Angels. Don't they get a -1T grenade or something?

Yeah, they do, that's why I'm annoyed by it. If it would make the game a better experience, I wouldn't mind, but it feels like they just slap stuff on haphazardly to sell the kit.

Anpu42 wrote:
It depends on their roll.
Plasma-Gun Armed: Keep The Bolt Guns, they are me mid ranged Gunline Unit.
Melta-Gun Armed: Not Sure, will pull out my Models and see and how much remodeling I will have to do.
Flamer Armed: I think they will end up with Bolt Pistols and Chain Swords.

This is actually a really good point, I'm gonna write this down and keep it in mind because I'm gonna have to do some remodelling myself. Turns out I have quite a number of troops with bolter/CCW that will mean nothing if this rumour pans out.

streamdragon wrote:
Bolter/BP will most likely still be the best loadout. Shooting is king in 7th, and with Counter Attack your Grey Hunters are still getting an extra attack. Better to have all the rounds of shooting I think.

Plus if Blood Claws are coming down in price far enough to be valid, you don't really need your Grey Hunters trying to fill the assault role.

I think I'll cry if SW lose counter attack, not that any rumours have said that but you never know for sure.

I'm kind of hoping the Blood Claw one is true, I've always had a bit of a soft spot for wanting to try them but just never had a reason to.

Does anyone know if that "1 Plasma pistol per 5 models" was strictly GH? Because that'd be a lot of plasma, especially if you upgraded one to a WG and gave him dual combi-plasmas.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

what, you mean like a razor back?

or one of the upteen variations on the lemen russ chassis?

or chimera chassis?

or the eldar wave serpant chassis?

Again with the bad comparisons. All of those are variants of the same chassis, not a unique vehicles that fills the same role as another vehicle.

Do you people complaining about similar roles actually read the fluff? Most stuff dates back to the Great Crusade and lots of vehicles that are in service are rediscoveries of old STC's from that era. There were (and still are) many different Forgeworlds pumping out competing patterns of literally the same vehicles, in most cases with just minor design changes but in some cases they are more pronounced. For example Macharius tanks are second generation Baneblades they are smaller and not as good for the role but they are easier to manufacture because most of the 40k era Forgeworlds have gone to gak.

Now in game terms it may not be interesting to see similar vehicles but it is totally inline with the fluff.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
This is actually a really good point, I'm gonna write this down and keep it in mind because I'm gonna have to do some remodelling myself. Turns out I have quite a number of troops with bolter/CCW that will mean nothing if this rumour pans out.

Keep in mind magnetising can be a good idea to make this sort of thing not a problem.

 Yonan wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
This is actually a really good point, I'm gonna write this down and keep it in mind because I'm gonna have to do some remodelling myself. Turns out I have quite a number of troops with bolter/CCW that will mean nothing if this rumour pans out.

Keep in mind magnetising can be a good idea to make this sort of thing not a problem.

To be fair, I never thought equipping a troop choice with their basic equipment would ever bite me in the ass.

Yeah basic troop weapons I'd only have thought to magnetise if I wanted to swap between say tacticals and assaults if I was being *really* stingy on transport space.

Jefffar wrote:The termies in the Stormclaw box had Deep Strike, so we might see it on the full codex versions too.

No they don't.

emptyedens wrote:I love all this talk of aerodynamics. I mean it really is ridiculous that they make flyers that can't fly, it's not like they have anti-gravity technology......oh wait.....but still the missiles would totally hit the hull unless the space marines had some kind of suspensor tech that could be fitted to small things like skulls that could push off the hull after the missile was launched....oh thats right....so anyway really nice flyer i guess?

I'd like to point out that Imperial anti-gravity technology does not work that way, or else Land Speeders would be fliers. In regards to aerodynamics, the other Imperial fliers, particularly the Space Marine ones (Thunderhawk and Stormraven especially) look like they could potentially fly through sheer force of thrust - inefficient, but possible. The Stormwolf is a Storm Talon with a box twice the size of the actual craft bolted on to the front, and the only difference in thrust is that it has an extra intake on each wing (if those tiny fins can be called "wings"). The thing is just so out of proportion that it doesn't even look like it could go in a straight line, never mind actually fly. Then you suggest that they attach Servo-Skull-esque equipment to each missile, pushing it upward after it comes out of the tube? Seriously? I won't even get in to how silly that is, so I'll just ask about the multimeltas. How do you suppose they, in their infinite wisdom, stopped the craft's fuselage from being melted by the multimelta beams that fire precariously close? Even with ceramite plating, that can't be good for it. Maybe they use fairy dust sparkle technology to teleport the beam directly to their enemies instead!

insaniak wrote:This picture is spot on:

Slap some jet engines on that, and you've essentially got the Stormthingoe.

Which, given the general WWII-ish aesthetic in 40K vehicles, is perfect for a landing craft.

I just kind-of wish that they had left the Stormthingoe as a transport and added the Talon for gunship support.

It would look better if the design was more balanced, and the part that isn't the box wasn't just the Storm Talon (which is already criticised for being too stubby). Making that boat into an aircraft is what they should have done. Instead, they took half of a large craft and attached it to a very small craft. It looks dumb. The single-pronged Caestus Assault Ram concept art, on the other hand, looks just fine. There's also the gunship variant having all this extra mass for no reason, because there's no way the shiny new gun needs all that bulk. If it does, they should have put it on a Predator instead of an aircraft (or at the very least a Stormraven, which is big enough to handle it). If they were going to make a Storm Talon variant, they should have followed the trend set by the Nephilim Jetfighter and Dark Talon; more details, a theme (Wolves, in this case), and a big gun. The transport plane could have an underslung box with an assault ramp on it.

Or, you know, they could have actually just designed a new thing.

We all have preconceived notions of what things can and can't do which is based on physics as we know. So while we might be able to suspend disbelief because magic, occasionally we hit a wall where something just looks stupid. The Stormtalon looks stupid because, to me, it looks like an underwater vehicle. It looks like a fat little fish more than it looks like an aircraft. Canis Wolfborn's TW looks like a friggen pomeranian. No matter how much you tell me it's a giant vicious wolf, it looks like a pomeranian. The Thunderbolt and Marauder could not fly, or if they could they could only fly at very low speeds and extremely uncomfortably for the pilots, but they have the proportions of a WW2 plane so to me, they look kinda cool. The Thunderhawk and Stormeagle push the limits of wacky proportions (to me) but they still manage to pull it off and look cool. The Stormraven pushes those limits too far and looks stupid (for some reason Forge World typically manages to get better proportioned vehicles to my eye than GW proper).

We all have different limits and no amount of "space magic" can take something we perceive as stupid as suddenly looking awesome. To me, the Storm-wolfy-mc-wolf looks like a front heavy brick crossed with an irish terrier with tiny little wings that serve no purpose. It looks like something that might have a place being fired from one ship at another ship as a form of boarding and it looks maybe like something you'd fire at a giant futuristic fortification to do as much damage as possible (like a brick would do...) and then unleash some troops.

As an aircraft that's actually supposed to "fly" above a battlefield, making strafing runs and what not, it just looks too ill suited to the task which makes it look ugly as hell to me.

Yeah, sure, as a seaborne or spaceborne landing craft it looks fine (even if it still does look like a fething irish terrier), it just doesn't work for me as an aerial combat vehicle.

TL;DR: Just because we are talking about 40k where nothing could fly if it weren't for space magic it doesn't mean aerodynamic discussion is irrelevant.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


Or, you know, they could have actually just designed a new thing.

Or, just let the Wolves use the existing StormRaven, which is basically exactly the same thing in different package

Presumably the people proclaiming the flyer looks like it could not fly have never seen an Antonov An225 taking off. Forget all this aerodynamics stuff and it comes down to a simple fact - give it powerful enough engines and a strong enough airframe and it will fly and perform how you wish it to.

We are after all talking about a universe where a gigantic flying castle exists and titans are airlifted, I think they got this covered.....

As far as tech goes, yeah the Imperium loves to tell everyone about using unsanctioned tech but also it has little oversight or actual control over the chapters - with the Wolves this is the chapter that came close to fighting the Grey Knights so kit bashing a plane is a bit minor IMO.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Presumably the people proclaiming the flyer looks like it could not fly have never seen an Antonov An225 taking off.

Wha? The An225 totally looks like it could fly, it looks like any other conventional aircraft ever built, just bigger.

With the giant dog muzzle, it's not so much the idea that it couldn't fly, it's the idea that it shouldn't fly... because it look like a brick.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Presumably the people proclaiming the flyer looks like it could not fly have never seen an Antonov An225 taking off.

Wha? The An225 totally looks like it could fly, it looks like any other conventional aircraft ever built, just bigger.

With the giant dog muzzle, it's not so much the idea that it couldn't fly, it's the idea that it shouldn't fly... because it look like a brick.

And Land Speeder looks like a big shoe, how does it fly?!

You're applying aerodynamics to technology capable of generating anti-gravity fields that can hover pretty much anything. You know that, right? Just because your imagination cannot possibly fathom this, it doesn't mean anyone else's can't. 40k has very little realism all around, it really boils down to personal taste in aesthetic, not any notion of "realism". "Realism" does not apply to 40k.

Of course it looks good. And licking your brush while using lead based paints is a great idea. GW certainly know their market, only an OCD completionist would buy that thing.

Anyone got a price point yet? Because the handsome 98 quid FW Caestus has sold out...

It could just be a conspiracy to force people to buy the fugly pug instead.

A strictly realistic far future science fiction setting would be Earth, only a lot warmer.

No science fiction setting that involves space travel (beyond a very expensive, mostly politically motivated, one-off space programme designed to get a handful of people to the Moon and back) is strictly realistic.

Haljin wrote:
And Land Speeder looks like a big shoe, how does it fly?!

It doesn't fly, it skims. And FWIW, yes, I preferred the 2nd edition Land Speeder to the current one.

You're applying aerodynamics to technology capable of generating anti-gravity fields that can hover pretty much anything. You know that, right? Just because your imagination cannot possibly fathom this, it doesn't mean anyone else's can't. 40k has very little realism all around, it really boils down to personal taste in aesthetic, not any notion of "realism". "Realism" does not apply to 40k.

For the millionth time, I have no problem with the fact it couldn't fly according to modern aerodynamics. I have a problem with the fact it doesn't look like it should fly and that it looks disproportionate and ugly (to me). None of the 40k aircraft could fly, but many of them look significantly more like they should fly.

It looks like it should be a space based ramming aircraft, just like the Stormtalon looks like it should be an underwater vehicle instead of an aerial vehicle. The fact almost no 40k aircraft could realistically fly doesn't change that this thing, IMO, doesn't look like it should be flying.

I'm aware other people may find it fine, obviously this is just my opinion, just like everything other than the actual rumours in this thread are also opinion.

Alabaster.clown wrote:
Of course it looks good. And licking your brush while using lead based paints is a great idea. GW certainly know their market, only an OCD completionist would buy that thing.

Anyone got a price point yet? Because the handsome 98 quid FW Caestus has sold out...

It could just be a conspiracy to force people to buy the fugly pug instead.

Always nice to be condescending to people who do not share your opinion!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Haljin wrote:
And Land Speeder looks like a big shoe, how does it fly?!

It doesn't fly, it skims. And FWIW, yes, I preferred the 2nd edition Land Speeder to the current one.

You're applying aerodynamics to technology capable of generating anti-gravity fields that can hover pretty much anything. You know that, right? Just because your imagination cannot possibly fathom this, it doesn't mean anyone else's can't. 40k has very little realism all around, it really boils down to personal taste in aesthetic, not any notion of "realism". "Realism" does not apply to 40k.

For the millionth time, I have no problem with the fact it couldn't fly according to modern aerodynamics. I have a problem with the fact it doesn't look like it should fly and that it looks disproportionate and ugly (to me). None of the 40k aircraft could fly, but many of them look significantly more like they should fly.

It looks like it should be a space based ramming aircraft, just like the Stormtalon looks like it should be an underwater vehicle instead of an aerial vehicle. The fact almost no 40k aircraft could realistically fly doesn't change that this thing, IMO, doesn't look like it should be flying.

I'm aware other people may find it fine, obviously this is just my opinion, just like everything other than the actual rumours in this thread are also opinion.

*shrug* Okay, that is obviously fine. I like most of the 40k vehicles and I don't think 40k is unique in the regard of strange flying vehicles. Many sci-fi settings are guilty of this.

I will admit the wolf flyer would fit as a space craft a bit better.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
We all have different limits and no amount of "space magic" can take something we perceive as stupid as suddenly looking awesome. To me, the Storm-wolfy-mc-wolf looks like a front heavy brick crossed with an irish terrier with tiny little wings that serve no purpose. It looks like something that might have a place being fired from one ship at another ship as a form of boarding and it looks maybe like something you'd fire at a giant futuristic fortification to do as much damage as possible (like a brick would do...) and then unleash some troops.

Exalted, because I agree with it all.

I realise it's fantasy, but every time I try to imagine it flying I end up imagining what is effectively a brick being thrown through the air. And that's just too much of a strain on my suspension of disbelief. At least the airborne vehicles I like (Valkyrie, Dakkajet, Land Speeder etc) have some nods in their design towards our notions of what a flying vehicle should look like. If you took the wings, cockpit and tail off a Valkyrie you'd also end up with a large box. But those parts you took off at least make it conform to our ideas of how an aircraft should appear. So fair play to GW for trying a new kind of design with this, but I think it's a miss.

If Battlefleet Gothic was still going, the general shape of this model would have been excellent for a large, ponderous ship in that. So I'm not totally against the idea, just not in this context.

It's pretty clear that different people have different levels at which their suspension of disbelief starts to break down. That is to be expected, really. There are loads of 40K minis I really don't like the look of (most of the CSM daemon engines look dreadful to me, for example, though I like the Defiler). I just don't buy them.

I do like the look of the Stompa, but I've never figured out how it walks. It doesn't bother me. I won't tell someone else that they are having the wrong kind of fun if they don't buy it 'cos it looks wrong to them.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Not to change the subject from hating the ship or discussion of Orks in this Space Wolves thread but had a look over of my models about this whole GH are bolter/bolt pistol and BC are bolt pistol/CCW but GH have the option of trading their bolter for a CCW.

And it got me wondering, say that rumour does become true, anybody got any plans on whether a Bolter/BP GH is preferred more than a BP/CCW GH? Because I'm looking at the Stormwolf and thinking about what Bulldogging said about the skyshield landing pad idea and it's giving me expensive ideas.

It depends on their roll.
Plasma-Gun Armed: Keep The Bolt Guns, they are me mid ranged Gunline Unit.
Melta-Gun Armed: Not Sure, will pull out my Models and see and how much remodeling I will have to do.
Flamer Armed: I think they will end up with Bolt Pistols and Chain Swords.

You know what's really depressing? My first instinct on noticing your wee spelling mistake there was not to fight down my inner word-nazi, but to think "Oh christ, don't tell me GW have squads rolling on a random table for their equipment now"

 Yodhrin wrote:

You know what's really depressing? My first instinct on noticing your wee spelling mistake there was not to fight down my inner word-nazi, but to think "Oh christ, don't tell me GW have squads rolling on a random table for their equipment now"

There is precedent you know. You could buy rolls on gear tables back in RT. Not sure if that made it into 2nd.

TAKE ALL THE AERODYNAMIC CONVERSATION HERE!!!!

Good lord reading all this NON-SW discussion is killing me. Hijack your own thread.