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Abaddon303 wrote:
Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.

Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.

It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.

It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.

So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.

The Chimera with a heavy bolter is 100% 75 points. The unit is listed as 65 and heavy bolters are listed below it at +10. 65+10=75. The Munitorum Field Manual says:

"You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit)."

For something to be free it must not be listed in the unit's entry. Heavy bolters are listed at +10. You cannot add them for free.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Makes one wonder if the new codex chimera will have 2 multilasers base.

There is no second multi-laser in the Chimera kit, so there will be no Chimera configuration like that in the next codex.
Rules are there to support selling kits guys, don't forget that.


As for the no model = no rules policy, I wonder if they will retire the veteran squad into legends status ?

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Makes one wonder if the new codex chimera will have 2 multilasers base.

There is no second multi-laser in the Chimera kit, so there will be no Chimera configuration like that in the next codex.
Rules are there to support selling kits guys, don't forget that.


As for the no model = no rules policy, I wonder if they will retire the veteran squad into legends status ?

Probably not as they can take 3 special weapons, but you'd need to buy multiple kits to get that many as each kit only comes with one so more kits sold.

They sell two kits which can be easily used as Veterans (Command Squads and Infantry Squads).
So I doubt they'll get Legend-ed, but it's possible. I still wish they were Troops again.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.

Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.

It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.

It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.

So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.

No again

Hmm, okay i agree. I think i had it in my head the base cost always incorporated the cheapest loadout. The chimera is a slightly weird one because you can upgrade it with a weapon that it also is forced to take as a minimum. I thought I had my head around how it works now but clearly not! Apologies...

Check out the poor Baneblade though, it seems they forgot that it has a Twin Heavy Bolter as default, and tried to minimise the options listed by having the price of sponsons solely on the Twin Heavy Bolter (since the lascannons are free, and Twin Heavy Bolters/Flamers are 50pts).
Which means that the Baneblade and it's variants all went up 50pts in price. Which is great, they were so OP to start with .

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Check out the poor Baneblade though, it seems they forgot that it has a Twin Heavy Bolter as default, and tried to minimise the options listed by having the price of sponsons solely on the Twin Heavy Bolter (since the lascannons are free, and Twin Heavy Bolters/Flamers are 50pts).
Which means that the Baneblade and it's variants all went up 50pts in price. Which is great, they were so OP to start with .

Yeah, this one was pretty disappointing to me since I got a Baneblade for Christmas. It seems to me like it was probably a mistake(one of many throughout the book), but I am not sure that they will ever bother to address it. It would be really nice to see the errata on this errata since there are so many mistakes throughout it.

I too bought a Baneblade for Christmas!
It's such a shame, I looove the model (well the casemates more than the actual Baneblade) and would like to run them without kneecapping myself *quite* so decisively.

This may not be exactly the right thread for this, but has anyone felt a sudden urge to go PL only/Stillmania after the FAQ? Something about the point changes for infantry units just makes me not want to waste any more time on tweaking lists.

I want to jump games and play Grimdark Future with my toys instead. Although that's for many long standing issues with 40k, the fact that rather than addressing them they just rubbed salt in *again* is only a small factor.

 waefre_1 wrote:
This may not be exactly the right thread for this, but has anyone felt a sudden urge to go PL only/Stillmania after the FAQ? Something about the point changes for infantry units just makes me not want to waste any more time on tweaking lists.

Me and my mates decided to drop points and just use PLs for the time being. Once more codexes are released we might go back to points,

M.

PL is ridiculous, unbalanced, unfair. Two SM company vets have PL 3, add one more and PL goes to 8. 50% more models means an increase of 266% in PL. A dreadnought is PL7. Are three company vets, with bolt pistols and boltguns, more powerful than a dreadnought with CCW, stormbolter, and an assault cannon ? Company vets have 19 (!) weapon choices, but PL stays the same. You cant put the power of a unit in one number. One army with PL 50 can have 1000 pts., while another army with the same PL can have 1250 pts., or even more, because weapons dont count.

Manticores are a bit tricky to get, and I currently (temporarily) don't have the ability (or desire) to assemble and paint the amount of Bullgryns I'd need. Beyond friendly games, I'll wait for the codex.

Not sure if everyone touched on this previously, but with hellhounds going down 10 pts, yes it still gives 2 victory points, but the real advantage is you can put a multi-melta in a guard army on a super durable platform imo, also they really need to just change the chem-cannon to 12 inches already, but this wont happen until the guard codex drops, sometime in ~2025 I wrecken

Its not terrible. I believe it has a role and think it will be interesting to see it in play -- but that's not a very resilient platform by any means. If it were, we would see armies of razorbacks crawling over the board, chasing terrified eradicators into the backfield.
.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Its not terrible. I believe it has a role and think it will be interesting to see it in play -- but that's not a very resilient platform by any means. If it were, we would see armies of razorbacks crawling over the board, chasing terrified eradicators into the backfield.
.

Honestly tho the biggest problem its still facing is that its 2 victory points to kill it, 3 if they thin their ranks, it would actually be stronger if it had 1 less wound

The only useful weapon on a hellhound is inferno cannon and heavy flamer, both auto hit. Add track guards and you have a 28" threat range, even with 1 wound. Your multi melta hits on 4+, and degrades. It doesnt take long and you hit on 5+, with -1 to hit you hit on 6s, which makes it useless.

I'm coming round to trying a few multi-melta's on devildogs in Guard with all there buffs at 120pts. Just a couple sprinkled in. I'd be playing them as either Vostoryan or Cadian so that your hitting on 3+ with firstborn pride or overlapping fields of fire with relic of lost cadia.

Metagame changes
- Guard plasma guns, heavy bolters, autocannon , etc are no longer as effective against prevalent -1 damage reduction. Even full payload manticores are mediocre against it. Demolsiher Russes are ok in moderation but are expensive for how comparatively fragile they currently are.

Recent tasty Buffs

- MM damage and 2 shots.
- Bring it down reduced to 2VP.
- Points drop in FAQ.

I think "useless" is a histrionic overstatement. There are places it would be more useful than a flamertank, and places less useful, and the art of the matter is guessing which you will face and arranging the one you need.

Devildogs are are still medium tanks that get blasted off the table quickly due to multi-melta attack bikes, Eradicators, Retributors, Obliterators and similar stuff.
Sure at 120 points they are not in such a bad spot as LRBT 's but still. I'm pretty reluctant to consider most direct-fire AM vehicles now, considering the opposition.
Maybe cheap single sentinels.

If you need meltaguns, you can alternatively take outflanking veterans squads (95 points) and fully fledged scions squads (130-135 points, objective secured).
They will not get vaporized instantly due to the aforementioned anti-tank units.

The weak point wiht the melta is the same as the weak point with standard plasma .. its effective range is 12 inches, and even a poorly placed screen can often start you back far enough to be unable to target the juicy stuff in the center. After dropping on the board, that means scions with meltas have an "effective penetration range" of 3 inches.

At least the hellhounds are moving forward their full move and then firing another 24 inches in, an effective range limited not by the enemy's actions nearly as much as by where they start their runs. Gaurd doesn't have a lot of highly mobile assets that are vehicles and also shoot multimeltas right now. (Pity we lost elysia, their sentinals WERE multimelta equipped, and were drop sentinals, to boot.)

I like the Multimelta hellhounds and their pretty good but most non artillery/hideable vehicles are in a bad place right now

I don't know if some of you have glanced over the lists in the other topic reporting about the tournament in Perth, Australia. One of the top lists (place 3) were sisters with an almost maxed out outrider detachment of Deathriders (2 Commanders, 3 x 4 Command Squads, 3 x 9 normal ones). So I guess they really work quite good.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I don't know if some of you have glanced over the lists in the other topic reporting about the tournament in Perth, Australia. One of the top lists (place 3) were sisters with an almost maxed out outrider detachment of Deathriders (2 Commanders, 3 x 4 Command Squads, 3 x 9 normal ones). So I guess they really work quite good.

They are fast resilient and point efficient and decent at clearing chaff.. so great at playing 9th and grabbing objectives... they just lack obj secured to make them better. And basic riders could do with another Atk to match the command squad.

But 41 death riders are expensive and not likely to survive another FW index beating.
I’m hesitant (and not likely) to buy more then the 20 (plus now useless commissar rider) I currently have.

Hello, Yes I have seen the list, and I'm baffled. Not by the particular player's choice but by the "metagame" in general. Needing to spend a grand in rare resin miniatures to stay in competition. Baffled by the widely spread and unquestioned acceptance of Forgeworld in the competitive scene, in what is an already expensive hobby. Forgewold miniatures, that can be discontinued without notice, in the books, as well as in their online store. Forgeworld rules, that have always been out of whack, but were OK for casual play between gentlemen. Now that we have overpowered specific units, endorsed by the main company as "legit for all games" it is way worse.

I did not have the impression FW IG units were really overpowered. The whole of 8th edition, the FW tanks were weaker than their weight in Leman Russ/Baneblade equivalents and Death Riders only became really strong with 9th. I know there is a lot of prejudice towards FW but I cannot bring myself to look at the FW IG units (exept the current iteration of Death Riders) and interpret them as broken or overpowered.

Back to topic: I cannot speak for the list in this tournament, but for my personal collection: I had 15 rough riders (by now 21) that were suddenly "invalidated" by moving to legends. So as Death Riders are still not legends these will most likely count as death riders from now on. I assume (just an assumption, mind you) the same is the case for lots of other collectors, that had rough riders. And for casual play: if you like horses, nothing keeps you from buying any cavalry and let it count as Death Riders. Even when you play in stores with a strict GW-models-only policy you can easily kitbash them from AoS cavalry with Cadian Torsos.

DR are terrible at clearing chaff. They only function as a fast tarpit and roadblock. DR Cmd Sq's hit a bit harder and are identical point for point. I take 3 squads in every list I run but hey, I play Krieg so that's hardly a surprise!

Engineers are the real sleeper hit of the new FW index. The biggest DPS unit Guard have access to imo.

The laser rapier batteries are really sweet, but they only have the space marine one available, but np just surround it with regular guardsmen instead

@ grouchoben: could you elaborate in the engineers? I heard they lost their carcass shot. What makes them a hidden gem in your opinion?

The still have access to a wicked grenade -- gas bombs, wounding most things on a 2+ and ap-2 with 1 damage.
Even the mole launcher team (and a free source of indirect fire with ap-1 and s5 is nothign to look down on) has the gas bombs -- so if you grenadier strategem them and all the engineers throw d6 s2(special 2+ wounds!) / -2 / 1D shots of gas bombs, you can melta away a pile of terminators. Maybe 35 such shots, half hit, 2+ wound, so about 17 saves at ap-2, would be a real concern even for a trio of bladegaurd. Not bad for an inexpensive unit that can tunnel up in midfield quite safely.