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The problem with grenade strat and engineers is the range on grenades and thier deepstrike mechanic means you have a small squad of guardsmen who can’t take special weapons in close range for at least a turn before they can use the strat. The grenade strat is a niche use that relys on your opponent not obliterating a small squad of essentially 10 guardsmen.

Unlike the death riders command squads.
Who dish out 2x str5 ap-3 damage 2 atks plus 2x str4 ap-1 damage 1 each. Max out those and commander for orders plus use 10+ Regular death riders to screen and they are decent at clearing chaff off objectives for thier points.

How about sticking the engineers in a transport and having them leap out and grenadier, does that work?

I like the objective clearing possibilites of cavalry.

Grenades (if you are already in position in a transport at start of turn) have a 3+normal move's 6" + 6" range = 15inch threat range.

The combat shotguns deserve a warm footnote too. We may not have the super killer shotgun shells any more, but a reliable 3 shots of s4 per body firing is not terribly bad -- because this unit can pop up anywhere without really needing an officer to FRFSRF the guns. You probably could see sending a couple 5 man engeneers forward as very cheap "grab a board sector" for recon, or to place homing beacons, and to acquit themselves pretty well (potentially a threat to the marines that then have to walk over to dig them out behind some LOS blocking rubble) for the price. Absolutely consider price when looking at disposable units to stick on a back board corner somewhere to get recon, or to perform some action in your own home field. Absolutely consider that this unit is safe without CP because its underground tunnel up ability is effectively a deepstrike, and its marginally cheaper than scions. 15 shots of s4 or 5d6 grenades is not terrible for gaurd, and its bs3+ base.

If you use "easy mode" scions (with the +6 range on lasguns) you can get a 50 point squad for 4 hotshots, 1 plasma pistol, and one vox caster that probably outperforms the 5 engeneers even on drop at anti-horde, but that assumes an officer sending an order down the vox network. For just plain use in a distant corner, I think the engeneers acquit themselves pretty well.

Those gas bombs sound like they would be really good against Death Guard. How many to kill morty?

Lets see: he is T8, W18, 3+, 4++ and disgustingly resilient.
So you would need 18 × 2 (save roll) ×6/5 (wound roll) ×3/2 (hit roll) = 64.8 acid gas shots. With d6 per engineers that's 18 engineers on average rolls. That's... impressive.

Edit: of course you can use grenadiers only once per phase, but still... two units of 80 points and 2 CP is pretty good to kill something like morty

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Lets see: he is T8, W18, 3+, 4++ and disgustingly resilient.
So you would need 18 × 2 (save roll) ×6/5 (wound roll) ×3/2 (hit roll) = 64.8 acid gas shots. With d6 per engineers that's 18 engineers on average rolls. That's... impressive.

Edit: of course you can use grenadiers only once per phase, but still... two units of 80 points and 2 CP is pretty good to kill something like morty

Yeah it looks really good. Banewolf's chem cannon could get in on the action as well, which would also negate his -1 to hit spell. Throw in some other shooting and a one turn kill looks possible. Not so scary now eh

The dumb thing of the devil dog is though, that it really only hits as hard as a single gasgrenade from the Engineers. The only thing it has going for it is +2'' range and +1 AP (that doesn't matter against Morty).

ah but it does auto hit, and he has a -1 power he can cast i think, plus you can re-roll the D6 for number of shots with the right doctrine.

On the maths for the grenades, i actually made it more than that, did you factor in the 5+++ revoltingly resiliant?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: actually yeah your right the chem cannon only does about 1.3 wounds i think, not worth it.

my calculation is it takes just under 30 grenades but i could be wrong, i do the sums a different way to you Pyro

I think a tank commander with gatling, grinding advance, 1ap tank ace does about 4 wounds to him

I factored in that the new disgustingly resilient is not a 5+++ anymore, but -1 damage (to a minimum of 1). And the new version is therefore useless against D1 weapons like gasgrenades or the devildog.

You are right of course that the DD autohits, I forgot that. Still it's awfully weak compared to engineers with gasgrenades. I mean 2 x 5 engineers for 80 points throw 2xD6 gasgrenades at BS3+ without the strat. So even when suffering -1 to hit from some aura or psycher power they would still do the same damage as the DD, which is pretty poor.


Edit: on the Math: therefore as I wrote:
you need 18 unsaved wounds. As the Gasgrenades have enough AP (-2) to trigger the InSv (4++) instead of the normal one (3+), we have to double it to 36.
Now we look at the wounding stage: the grenades wound on a 2+, so we multiply our 36 with 6/5 to 43.2.
Than comes the hit stage. The Grenadiers hit on a 3+, so 43.2 *3/2 = 64.8 (or 86.4 if they suffer -1 to hit)
That divided by 3.5 for average 3.5 shots on a D6 grenade: 18.5 Grenadiers (24.8 if they suffer -1 to hit)

The Perth results really dont reflect a Guard list since it was with the list used at heart a soup list.

I mentioned it more to note that deathriders seem to be functional in their role. Of course I can only speculate, as I did not see the matches, but as they were souped into sisters I assume they were used as cheap (for their wounds and defensive profile) fast (relativly) objective grabbers.

So if you wanted to really, really push the engeneers of dkok to their maximum, consider the following ancilliary units as "must takes".
1. an astropath. (isn't he allways?)
2. aradia madellan and 3 wyrdvanes. (they can combo up to throw a very hard to resist smite at +2, as well as aradia's special sauce +1 to hit for a unit of gaurd).
3. lord commisar yarrick (reroll 1 to hit) and an officer of the dkok nearby somewhere (reroll 1 to WOUND). Note you can also simply use (against specifically chaos) the vengance for cadia stratagem here.
4. grenadiers! strategem.

Yes, you blow about 4 or 5 cp on one unit of gaurd infantry firing, but your average 35 shots will HIT an average 33 or so times, and wound about 31. That's 16ish unsaved wounds for mortarion, or the first 10 off his hit bar, far, far more than you would normally expect an 80 point unit to be capable of.

Also, though, bring a few scions along with hotshotvolleyguns (elimination protocols order) and/or meltas (also elimination protocols order) to rip into him. If your unit is pure lambda lions, you might even try to add their own gifts of the mechnaicum strat on top of everything else and put morty down with 2 infantry units armed only with shotguns and hotshot lasguns.

And, well, half your cp, and a few buffers.
Still, its a neat thought to whip out when the chaos guy is thinking "nothing can harm me, I am mortarion!"

Best way to use Engineers is in a heavy flamer chimera, and that's it, 165pts for the complete setup, 170 if you can afford trackguards. Sure they'd like buffs but just yarrick and aradia is pretty close to another chimgineer team in points, and I prefer dispersed threats. I always take two, and run one on each flank as problem solvers, I strongly recommend giving them a shot! I do often run one or two deathrider commanders in my lists, and their movement lets you decide on the hoof whether your engineers will need backup. Plus they're about twice as tough as marshals and can chip damage in CC. They cost you cp (inspired command strat gets used basically every turn) but I like them, they sync nicely with chimgineers and deathriders...

See, deathrider commanders isn't something I would even have thought of! Good idea there!

@Pyroalchi
I think morty has 'revoltingly resiliant' as well as 'disguistingly resiliant'

revoltingly resiliant is confusing the same as the old disguistingly resiliant, a 5+++

I see, in that case we would have to multiple by 3/2 as every third wound is ignores, so roughly 27 engineers throwing grenades. Still taking over 1/3 of Morties wounds with an 80 point unit and 1 CP is more than 80 points should do.

He can be killed by Guard and thats what counts! thanks for the maths

I was going to model some shotgun vets anyways, don't see why they cant be death korps engineers

so, people are enthused about dkok cav, about dkok engenseers, dkok rapiers, are the conquere battle tank leman russes (with triple flamer, I think?) still something people consider decent? They are lower in points now, I think they bring a nice mix of accuracy and relative independance from needing tank orders to be good.

I believe Conquerors are effectively better versions of regular Leman Russ tanks at the moment. The extra range isn't that significant but the rerolls from the co-ax is.
But that isn't saying much, as Leman Russes are pretty bad (especially with the current melta-meta) and Tank Commanders are better (but again, not great).

With every DKOK unit that gets identified as relatively good (in an IG context) I suspect dumb commentaries stating "Forgeworld is pay to win!" "Nerf DKOK already!" etc. are incomming.
And I suspect the engineers at least will see the Nerfbat pretty soon.

That's always the problem with Forgeworld, people only ever see the few OP units.
Partly because models are too expensive to buy based on coolness alone for most people.

The engeneers alerady SAW the nerfbat, they used to fire something called carcas shot shotgun rounds that were just about as good as the gas grenades, but ranged out to hit the foe.

So someone nerfted the hells out of them already, leaving a situational weapon likely to get them killed rather than an easy mode weapon that they could just tunnel up and blaze away.

@Dukeofstuff: I know.

My comment was more meant in the direction that even though I have only been on Dakka for a bit short of two years I heard multiple complains of "Forgeworld stuff is just broken". Mostly originating from some SM or Eldar stuff and unfairly protected on FW in general. We even had this here in the tactics thread a while ago and counterarguments in the line of "point to the IG FW unit that is broken." are usually ignored. I suspect when these same people hear IG players considering FW stuff because it might - situationally - work better in a certain roll than our usual stuff (read that as "less behind the current most effective armies than usual) they will scream for a ban of these "broken OP Forgeworld" units while carassing their completely normal GW Eradicators

 kirotheavenger wrote:

...Partly because models are too expensive to buy...

The handful that they still make are too expensive, anyways.
<quietly stares at the list of units Legends'd last October>

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I believe Conquerors are effectively better versions of regular Leman Russ tanks at the moment. The extra range isn't that significant but the rerolls from the co-ax is.
But that isn't saying much, as Leman Russes are pretty bad (especially with the current melta-meta) and Tank Commanders are better (but again, not great).

Conqueror's are no longer supported by GW

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@Dukeofstuff: I know.

My comment was more meant in the direction that even though I have only been on Dakka for a bit short of two years I heard multiple complains of "Forgeworld stuff is just broken". Mostly originating from some SM or Eldar stuff and unfairly protected on FW in general. We even had this here in the tactics thread a while ago and counterarguments in the line of "point to the IG FW unit that is broken." are usually ignored. I suspect when these same people hear IG players considering FW stuff because it might - situationally - work better in a certain roll than our usual stuff (read that as "less behind the current most effective armies than usual) they will scream for a ban of these "broken OP Forgeworld" units while carassing their completely normal GW Eradicators

Cav and engineers will eventually stop being produced regardless.. dkok and fw in general are rapidly disappearing from production. No one expects the fw index to be touched until 10th Ed.. if we are lucky dkok gets rolled into the codex as a real regiment and the rest of the dkok even if it is no longer produced will still be viable. I’ve built up a large enough force that I should be fine for a while.

Also cavalry and engineers are no where near close to overpowered. One is used on a niche grenade strat, that’s highly counterable. The other is just a just a faster point efficient unit but really isn’t that impactful.

bat702 wrote:


Conqueror's are no longer supported by GW

I was scratching my head over that one too! Got a bit excited there for a moment, as I used to run 3 in a lot of lists, and thought they might be back. Ah well...

It's true engineers might have their grenades tweaked, but it's equally true that the grenadiers strat might be nerfed in the new codex... We're playing out the dying hours of an old book at the moment, after all.

Ah, crap. Someone told me they were back but only in the dkok new codex (ie the new forgeworld book) but it appears they were in error, I note there is no points value in the munitorium.

stupid gw fascists.

Are Conscripts worth taking? I've got a (possible) tournament coming up and I don't have any Bullgryns nor the time or (currently, physical) ability to build and paint any either. I have 10 Crusaders, but I'm wondering if I can take some of what I have (buckets of Lasgun toting Guardsmen, Straken, Priest, commissar, and Primaris Psyker) to have something else to flood an objective with and dish out a small amount of damage.

No, they are not sadly.