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So, as if there were not enough issues with Gang Wars 1 & 2, I already have some questions about the Genestealer Cult list in white Dwarf.

The rules regarding extra arms for Acolytes and Aberrants are unclear;
* Nowhere does it state that they automatically have three arms.It does say that Acolytes can carry four weapons instead of three, that does not mean they must have an extra arm and it does not say that about Aberrants.
* Neither of them can select wargear, and extra arms are wargear, so technically they can't have extra arms. Unless they already have them.

How do people think it should work?

I think the writer intended for them to begin with third arms, and as a result did not give them access to the Wargear section because why would they ever need to buy a third arm when they start with one?

... then he forgot to start them with a third arm.

At the Very least, Acolytes are clearly supposed to have access to Wargear, given there exists the Icon, a piece of Wargear that can only be taken by Acolytes.

And the fact that Acolytes currently don't have access to Respirators and Photovisors, two things they clearly have in the plastic kit.

What you think about the price for Extra arm? 50 credits seems a bit much. Maybe worth it to handle heavy weapons or other Unwieldy ranged weapons (can shoot as Basic action, which opens up to move or aim). But to use it without an Unwieldy ranged weapon, you only receive +1 Attack with a Fighting knife. Is that worth 50 credits?

I don't know if there are any ranged weapons other than heavy weapons that are Unwieldy. And not all heavy weapons are Unwieldy either (well, so far for Genestealer Cults all are, but they may get some later which aren't). So only one Neophyte can benefit from the Unwieldy ranged weapon bonus. While the rest can only use it to get that +1 Attack with a fighting knife. Now Acolytes have just a single Attack in their profile while other Champions usually have 2. So what if Acolytes started with an Extra arm, it would only grant them +1 attack with a fighting knife, bringing them up the level of other Champions (for Attacks at least). I think maybe they should have the Extra arm for free (included in base cost) since as already mentioned, they can have 4 weapon slots which seems to imply they got more arms to already.

The most reasonable would be to look at how much Bulging Biceps is worth (anything from 20 if in a Primary skillset to 50 if not in a skill set) but frankly the credit value of advancements seems to have largely been calculated via the D6x10 method anyway. Somewhere in the 30 creds region sounds right to me assuming optimal use (move and shoot a mining laser).

They tried to make the rules fit the new GSC hybrid models. All Acolyte models have a third arm (Metamorphs vary from two to four, but they aren't in the GSC gang rules). Aberrants have three. All Neophytes have two, except for the Mining Laser, with three. It's complicated.

I'm going to treat Acolytes and Abberrants as already coming with a third arm included. And, allow Acolytes wargear. A Neophyte can buy a third arm (because the Mining Laser has one). I never modeled any other Neophyte with a third arm.

Now, if using the old GSC hybrid models, all bets are off. They have a variety of armes and weapons.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The most reasonable would be to look at how much Bulging Biceps is worth (anything from 20 if in a Primary skillset to 50 if not in a skill set) but frankly the credit value of advancements seems to have largely been calculated via the D6x10 method anyway. Somewhere in the 30 creds region sounds right to me assuming optimal use (move and shoot a mining laser).

It's just that Extra arm does two mutually exclusive things (if I understood it correctly):

a) Let you shoot Unwieldy weapon as Basic action
or
b) +1 Attack with fighting knife

I have no problem with the original price of 50 credits or anything you suggested for option a). You would only ever have a single fighter in the gang for that purpose (only one Neophyte can have heavy weapon), so it's a cost that's only paid once. But what you think is fair price for all the other extra arms? The ones that can only grant +1 Attack with a fighting knife and never be used with a heavy weapon?

While checking the costs at the Advancement table, I was quite shocked to find Wound having the same price as Attack for 12XP. Wouldn't everyone pick wound over attack? And isn't that quite expensive? Compare that to Strength or Toughness for only 8XP, who would take Strength over Toughness? Who would take Attacks over Toughness? I would put Attacks at about the same price as Strength, so maybe 8 XP, +30 credits. But then there's the fighting knife which costs 15 (10 for some gangs). I would think something like 30 or 40 credits would fit option b).

 Gobbla wrote:
I'm going to treat Acolytes and Abberrants as already coming with a third arm included. And, allow Acolytes wargear. A Neophyte can buy a third arm (because the Mining Laser has one). I never modeled any other Neophyte with a third arm.

This makes the most sense.

 Breotan wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:
I'm going to treat Acolytes and Abberrants as already coming with a third arm included. And, allow Acolytes wargear. A Neophyte can buy a third arm (because the Mining Laser has one). I never modeled any other Neophyte with a third arm.

This makes the most sense.

Yeah, except I think I was wrong. As I looked to put a gang together, it seemed likely Acolytes and Abberrants should not come with a third arm included. My bad.

In the case of Acolytes, they are the least expensive of Champions. Which makes sense, they have one wound and one attack. It appears they are meant to be limited to one attack with their Acolyte weapons. They could not buy a third "third arm." So, would be down an attack compared to other Champions. But, if they don't already have a third arm, they can buy one. Then, they gain that second attack like other Champions get (the equivalent of a "fighting Knife). Plus the equivalent of "Bulging Biceps" (which they need to wield Unwieldy Acolyte weapons effectively). A three-armed Acolyte with a pistol and chainsword, would have 3 attacks, divided between 3 weapons. A three-armed Acolyte with a Heavy Rock Drill would have 2 attacks, divided between two weapons. This does make them pricey.

I don't have a cogent argument for Aberrats. Except to say they are all modeled with three arms. Buying them that third arm gives them an extra Attack. Which they can't get otherwise, as they can only get one Aberrant weapon. Again, pricey.

 Gobbla wrote:
Plus the equivalent of "Bulging Biceps" (which they need to wield Unwieldy Acolyte weapons effectively). A three-armed Acolyte with a pistol and chainsword, would have 3 attacks, divided between 3 weapons. A three-armed Acolyte with a Heavy Rock Drill would have 2 attacks, divided between two weapons. This does make them pricey.

How would an extra arm help Acolytes handle Unwieldy weapons?

The only bonus I can see for Extra arm other than a single +1A with Fighting knife is one single Neophyte in the gang can use a heavy weapon with similar efficiency as "Bulging Biceps".

I just realized I forgot the fact Acolytes and Abberrants can't take "Wargear." So, can't "buy" a third arm. So, back to square one.

Yes, Acolyte and Aberrant models have three arms. Yes, these rule's fluff says most Hybrids have 3 arms. But, the rules themselves don't say that.Acolyte and Aberrant models do have 3 arms.

Following the rules as written, even though the models come with a third arm, the rules don't say they get one. This means Acolytes could use two weapons in h2h, so get 2 attacks. Acolyte Weapons are Unwieldy, so count as two weapons. So, an Acolyte armed with an AW gets one attack.

Abberrants get 2 attacks.

Please don't hate me!

For even more GSC fun, try to figure out the meaning of "Familiars never suffer Serious Injuries..." I conjured up all kinds of machinations. Then, I decided if it said "never suffer Lasting Injuries" it makes sense.

For Acolytes (if they could take Extra arm or come with it included), I don't think Extra arm would make a Unwieldy weapon not being Unwieldy. You'll just have +1A with Fighting knife. It doesn't effect Unwieldy weapons in any way. Only a single Neophyte will be able to affect Unwieldy weapons using Extra arm. Or have I misunderstood?

 Gobbla wrote:


For even more GSC fun, try to figure out the meaning of "Familiars never suffer Serious Injuries..." I conjured up all kinds of machinations. Then, I decided if it said "never suffer Lasting Injuries" it makes sense.

Good catch!

Comparing stat lines and point costs, I would guess that the Acolyte is supposed to start with the third arm to represent the extra attack Champions normally have and allow for that extra weapon he can carry. The Aberants probably have to purchase them normally.

Baxx wrote:
For Acolytes (if they could take Extra arm or come with it included), I don't think Extra arm would make a Unwieldy weapon not being Unwieldy. You'll just have +1A with Fighting knife. It doesn't effect Unwieldy weapons in any way. Only a single Neophyte will be able to affect Unwieldy weapons using Extra arm. Or have I misunderstood?

RAW you're right. It doesn't affect Unwieldy melee weapons, just gives a free knife attack.

Yeah, the wording of the extra arm says it makes "shooting an Unwieldy weapon a basic action." So, no effect on an unwieldy h2h weapons anyway. Which is another thing I misread because the whole third arm rule is cockeyed.

It makes perfect sense when applied to the Neophyte with a Mining Laser. That particular boost to the Mining Laser is almost worth 50 creds. But, ONLY that model. There are no other Neophytes with three arms. Another attack with a Fighting Knife equivalent is not worth 50 creds.

All Acolyte and Aberrant models have three arms. But, the rules don't say they come with one. Nor can they buy one.

The third arm rule is kind of slapped together, IMHO

 Gobbla wrote:
The third arm rule is kind of slapped together, IMHO

Welcome to Necromunda 2017

Thanks, I fully agree. Just wanted to know if I were on the same page or was missing something.

Did someone mention the Cult Icon must be given to an Acolyte, and is only useful if carried by an Acolyte? And, the Icon is an item of Wargear? But..wait for it...Acolytes can't get Wargear!

If the word "Wargear" is added to the Acolyte's list of attainable items, everything falls into place. Icon, Extra Arm, etc.

I guess, but Acolytes already have a rule for an additional weapon slot which indicates an extra arm. I would like Acolytes to have the Extra arm included in the cost. And I would like to the Extra arm to cost less than 50 credits for all except the one Neophyte having a heavy weapon. I think it's much too expensive for a bonus Fighting knife attack.

It also doesn't give one to the Aberrant, who probably shouldn't have access to Wargear anyway.

And Acolytes having an Extra Arm by default goes some way to explaining why they have only one wound unlike every other Champion-type seen so far.

Personally, when I eventually get around to rewriting this shitshow for any groups I might run in the future, I'll be giving them both an Extra Arm by default AND giving Acolytes access to Wargear.

Sounds about right! Any thoughts on M5" except for Aberrants? Would you go as far as to change that? A bit off-topic but maybe it's ok.

I expect I will, there's no reason I can see to justify them being M4. They're not combat monsters, they're not extremely tough, they don't have any kind of mechanic to obscure them from enemy shooting; ergo they should be "normal" movement.

M4 is standard human movement in Necromunda, is it not? Do Genestealer cult acolytes have a higher M than Astra Militarum in 8th edition 40k?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
M4 is standard human movement in Necromunda, is it not? Do Genestealer cult acolytes have a higher M than Astra Militarum in 8th edition 40k?

Nope, M4 is "big lumbering brute/slowpoke" standard, ie Goliaths, and they get to be super-beef to compensate. Both Escher and Orlock are M5(M6 for Juves). If I were writing the GSC rules, the not-Magus and Neophytes would be M5, the Acolytes M6, and the Aberrants M4.

Ah, my mistake. In that case, fair enough.

Would have preferred they left Aberrants out altogether until the GSC infested Hive Secundus setting (as they foretold). Aberrant models are hard to come by (only in he Deathwatch game). And, they watered down Acolytes to make Aberrants more beastly in h2h. The cult ends up with two types that are neither as good (or flexible) as other gang's Champions.

The way I see it, you can have an GSC Acolyte represeted by an Neophyte. 3rd Arm costs extra cause Neophyte dont have on the figurine. I bought the Neophyte Hybrids box (same price as Orlocks, Goliath or Escher) and I will build a gang with them. Many options can't be taken/used from the White Dwarf rules, but Orlocks + Goliath+ Escher dont have that may options also.

You don't' need another box. The Adept is a Neophyte. And, a different skin tone can designate Acolytes. As for the Third Arm, I'd as soon ignore it. 50 creds for an extra attack with a Fighting Knife ain't worth it.

These rules are just borked.

Wargear options that can't be taken. Familiars that can't be injured. Notice how the heavy rock saw and the bonesword both have accuracy modifier of "1", not "-1" or "+1", just "1".
And... and please somebody enlighten me why they all have just M4! It makes no sense.

Did nobody proofread this