Switch Theme:

Quick fix for mitigating alpha strikes  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Been Around the Block




Problem: With the amount of cultist bombs and similar dropping down (or even worse, just appearing, looking at you alpha legion) wiping units before you had your first activation, I want a list building way to counter this. I think that the “scout” units are designed with this in mind, creating bubbles of no deep strike (units such as scouts, sentinels, ratlings). The problem with these though is the option for the player going first to drop down/move up a unit of their own to block the player going seconds area deniers, as it now is a straight roll of deciding first scout drop.

Solution: 1. The player going second decides who drops/moves first in the scout phase. This would let you restrict where your opponent can alpha strike, reducing the player going firsts advantage.
2. Introduction of the new “general” stratagem “perimeter guard”.
Fluff: Your cautious commander order the grunts to establish a perimeter to avoid being surprised during the night
1 cp, once per battle use. You may use this stratagem if you, after all rolls including “seize the initiative “ roll, are going second. You may redeploy of you units with the ”TROOP” keyword. The unit can deploy anywhere wholly within 6 inches of your deployment zones boundaries.

I think this fits the narrative as the army going first should be the attackers, and they are hindered by sentries and patrols from jumping in on the unexpecting main army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 13:44:41


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






Better easier solution, no deep strike turn one, unless done via strat or relics.

Also charge it so any strat that allows you to infultrate ie alpha legion, you can not then move that turn.

I hate doing the I told you so, but I called this before 8th even dropped that people dont understand how powerful garunteed deep strike and being able to charge outta deep strike is gonna be.

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in us
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






 Backspacehacker wrote:
Better easier solution, no deep strike turn one, unless done via strat or relics.

Also charge it so any strat that allows you to infultrate ie alpha legion, you can not then move that turn.

I hate doing the I told you so, but I called this before 8th even dropped that people dont understand how powerful garunteed deep strike and being able to charge outta deep strike is gonna be.


Back in 7th you bought a drop pod to get garunteed deep strike. Now you just plop whatever, where ever and it not like Auspex scan is strong enough to scare people off either
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






I agree and drop pod spam was a massive problem in 7th but the real issue here is getting into melee turn one.

Here are 30 zerkers 9 inches away, they move up and have to make a 3 inch charge and are now in combat turn one.

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in us
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






Which really ruffles my feathers too!
Marines get penalised by their own stratagem but then eldar just need a warlock, they don't get a penalty and to rub salt in the wound it can be anything from a guardian to a wraith knight with heavy wraith cannons taking the shots
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




Without turn 1 deep strikes we'll all be back to getting tabled by shooting armies. If anything we should look for a fix that reduces overall amage output turn 1
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






Sedraxis wrote:
Without turn 1 deep strikes we'll all be back to getting tabled by shooting armies. If anything we should look for a fix that reduces overall amage output turn 1


No because sure you have a shoot army but then on the next turn they can drop in their deep strike and fire and charge in

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




 Backspacehacker wrote:
Sedraxis wrote:
Without turn 1 deep strikes we'll all be back to getting tabled by shooting armies. If anything we should look for a fix that reduces overall amage output turn 1


No because sure you have a shoot army but then on the next turn they can drop in their deep strike and fire and charge in


The same goes for an army that got hit by a deepstrike turn 1. Next turn they can still retreat/shoot/countercharge/deepstrike their own units etc.

In both cases, 1 player loses a bunch of his army before he takes his turn.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




It’s an intrsting discussion on the ds should live on, but what do you think of the rule sugggestion. I’ve been toying around with nurglings who has this intrinsically and love it.
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





East Bay, Ca, US

I disagree.

The Alpha Legion stratagem is very, very strong. Rather than reworking how the game works at a fundamental level, just adjust this and the White Scars stratagems.

Deep strike assault is unpredictable at best, and people relying on it are doing so out generally out of desperation (not counting assassins).

Melee is the last thing that needs a nerf right now.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I think people suffer so badly from alpha strikes because they aren't bringing enough screening units. Running Necrons you will never see me going into battle without 12 bases of scarabs to keep my tasty bits safe.

Bedouin Dynasty: 7k+ pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




 Marmatag wrote:
I disagree.

The Alpha Legion stratagem is very, very strong. Rather than reworking how the game works at a fundamental level, just adjust this and the White Scars stratagems.

Deep strike assault is unpredictable at best, and people relying on it are doing so out generally out of desperation (not counting assassins).

Melee is the last thing that needs a nerf right now.


I have to disagree about screening. I agree its unpredictable for melee ds, and the only ones who reliable use it have different kind of boosts that allow them to close the distance by special ability after ds or getting extra dice for charge range. However, these units, such as death company, gsc, Da Jamped boys and suchlike are already quite easy to screen against and won’t be affected much by this change, maybe it’s a bit harder to consolidate into gun lines. But the thing breaking the game imo is ranged units ds:Ing the Slaanesh cultist blob in alpha legion comes to mind. The dsing plasma into rapid fire range is also typical. You would be able to greatly limit the targets in rapid fire range for such units.

The stratagem might be a bit to much, but defender always moving scout first would open a option to counter alpha legion and raven Guard to some extend that I think is needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I think people suffer so badly from alpha strikes because they aren't bringing enough screening units. Running Necrons you will never see me going into battle without 12 bases of scarabs to keep my tasty bits safe.


Agree, but screens only help against melee. My friend does the same thing with necrons against my gsc and it works great, but against my 40 Slaanesh cultists that get to move 6 inch after alpha legion infiltrating, double firing with Votlw in rapid fire range, not so much

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 20:23:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gremmer wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I think people suffer so badly from alpha strikes because they aren't bringing enough screening units. Running Necrons you will never see me going into battle without 12 bases of scarabs to keep my tasty bits safe.


Agree, but screens only help against melee. My friend does the same thing with necrons against my gsc and it works great, but against my 40 Slaanesh cultists that get to move 6 inch after alpha legion infiltrating, double firing with Votlw in rapid fire range, not so much


I politely disagree. Personally, I'm not generally all that worried about deepstriking/infiltrating blobs with small arms fire. My opponent has to deploy such units last to keep me from simply counter deploying safely away from them, plus standing in terrain usually ups my saves to make small arms fire much less threatening, plus I can stand well behind my front screening units if I'm really worried about t hem, plus a blob right outside my deployment zone is just begging me to take a big bite out of my opponent's force turn one.

I do find that screening helps me big time against things like deepstriking plasma or melta squads. It's easy to keep such units outside of 12" most of the time, thus mitigating their damage output.


As for mitigating alpha strikes, I've been kicking around the idea of an "escalation level" mechanic. The basic idea is that units begin the game less offensively powerful and end the game more offensively powerful as the "escalation level" increases. So for instances, an escalation level might begin the game at 1, increase to 2 at the top of game round 3, and then increase to 3 at the top of game round 5. The effects of the level might look something like...

Level 1: Multi-damage weapons deal 1 less damage to a minimum of 1. All units with a Movement value of 1" or more increase their movement by 3".
Level 2: Disregard the level 1 mechanics. Normal rules are in play.
Level 3: Multi-damage weapons deal +1 damage. Characters can reroll a single to-hit, to-wound, psychic test, or save per player turn.

So the idea here is that in the first couple of turns, long-ranged attacks designed to wipe your multi-wound models off the table are less efficient, and you have an easier time moving units forward and into position. In the middle of the game, you play as normal. Starting on turn 5 when the game is beginning to wind down, things become more lethal, and characters that are still around get to have more moments of awesome as they fight tooth and nail to make a difference.
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

To limit alpha strikes I'd just give a -1 to hit to any unit belonging to the player that has 1st turn. I'd also limit the deep strike, IMHO only one unit, maybe two if the second one is a character, in an entire list should have the free ability.

Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






All of these suggestions don't stop alpha strikes. They just push back when they occur. If first turn has a bunch of issues then you keep all your gak in reserves until second turn.

You are not addressing the actual issue by trying to band aid symptoms. The actual issue that causes alpha strikes to begin with is acting with your entire army all at once with no chance for the enemy to respond.

Fix that instead of trying to patch the symptoms and just shifting when the alpha strike takes place.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
All of these suggestions don't stop alpha strikes. They just push back when they occur. If first turn has a bunch of issues then you keep all your gak in reserves until second turn.

You are not addressing the actual issue by trying to band aid symptoms. The actual issue that causes alpha strikes to begin with is acting with your entire army all at once with no chance for the enemy to respond.

Fix that instead of trying to patch the symptoms and just shifting when the alpha strike takes place.



I disagree. While I'm not opposed to non-IGOUGO systems, I'd say that pushing back alpha strikes does, in fact, have the potential to fix the main issues with them. To me, the main problem with alpha striking isn't that there's a turn where I take a bunch of damage; it's that strong alpha strikes prevent me from using alpha struck units at all. I'll feel much better about my opponent killing my fire prism after it has fired a few times than if it gets destroyed at the top of turn 1. Plus, having a couple of turns before the reserves come in can radically shift the game state. Psykers will have time to throw buffs up. Melee units will have a chance to cross the table or even start making charges. Shooty units may have taken out other shooty units thus changing priorities regarding where you bring in reserves and stemming the total amount of shooting you'll be on the receiving end of.

So yeah. a bunch of scion squads that show up turn 3 will still stand to take a big chunk out of me when they arrive, but I'll feel much better about that when I'm already assaulting my opponent's lines and shooting some of his units off the table. Regarding deepstrikers specifically, having a reason to delay your arrival does interesting things with screens. If you have a few extra turns to whittle down screen units, or if your opponent has broken screening formation to go get objectives, then focusing on screens and having even more screens for redundancy might become more important.

   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

Honestly, then you need to somewhat nerf gunlines damage then. Many armies solutions to attacking hardcore gunlines is a deep striking distraction unit.

I agree, overall damage to the first player is a bit high; but its all about play and counterplay. If i see your list has terminators and no transports, i know they will ds, just like zerkers, etc. I do feel that there should be a limit (maybe 1 unit turn 1, or perhaps a roll off like it once was).

Nurgle/CSM aficionado - Check out my P&M Blog! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745328.page 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






Roling for deepstrike is terrible. It takes agency away from the players.

And thats the problem, there isnt much or any counterplay because durring X players turn Y players only agency is MAYBE some stratagems.

   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







I feel like screening as your interaction with deepstrike works, but armies that can't screen cost-effectively on their own really need some kind of teleport-jammer or whatnot that widens the deepstrike-disallowed zone.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Lance845 wrote:
Roling for deepstrike is terrible. It takes agency away from the players.


So does not rolling, because there is no longer a choice between deep striking and deploying normally. Only deep striking is a valid choice, like it or not. And you're almost always going to drop those units on turn 1, like it or not. Having to roll for arrival (and, ideally, roll for location) restores the choice between deep striking and normal deployment, giving advantages and disadvantages for both.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






 Peregrine wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Roling for deepstrike is terrible. It takes agency away from the players.


So does not rolling, because there is no longer a choice between deep striking and deploying normally. Only deep striking is a valid choice, like it or not. And you're almost always going to drop those units on turn 1, like it or not. Having to roll for arrival (and, ideally, roll for location) restores the choice between deep striking and normal deployment, giving advantages and disadvantages for both.


Disagree. Besides the deepstrike limitation on units making it possible some units would have to deploy on the board, the specific mission, or deployment zones, or board lay out could all be factors that make regular deployment potentially more favorable than deepstriking. Granted it's not often, but it does exist.

I WOULD like to see more nuance in the choices you make in 40k across the board. But the fact that the choices you have to make are few and crap is one of the biggest issues in 40k, and making this choice a crap shoot doesn't make the choice interesting or good. It just makes it a choice between hoping for random chance to favor you or deploying normally while paying for the ability to deepstrike.

   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




Norfolk, VA

In past editions here were a couple ways to help mitigate alpha strikes:
1. First turn deepstrike was limited, IIRC only 2 armies had access to it: Space marines (who could only do it via drop pod) and Grey Knights (who actually could DS their entire army). And with the exception of one unit in 7th, no one could assault out of deepstrike. Deepstrike got also wasn’t as precise either. Daemons could summon stuff turn 1 but range made it harder to get those units close to you.
2. Any army could put units into reserve, and roll to have them come in from their table edge starting turn 2 (and there were ways to come from other edges). That way your powerful units always got one turn of shooting before they got targeted.

I don’t think charging out of deepstrike is necessarily bad; it makes a lot of sense for certain armies but I think cutting down on “3D6 charge range” type abilities outside of a rare warlord trait bubble or single use stratagem would help, as would giving more armies the ability to keep stuff off the table until they want it in (and random reserves would make it risky).

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: