Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules

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**Unnamed Harlequin**

fresus wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Chikout wrote:
So next week’s preview is up on the community site and there is no sign of the harlequin book. It looks like there may have been a misprint in white dwarf and we will instead get them the following week along side the scenery.

It wouldn’t be the first time White Dwarf has contained inaccurate information about release dates. I suspect it’s usually because the people in charge of such things have made changes after the magazine has gone off to the printers.

The community site also makes mistakes. A week before the Daughters of Khaine Melusai and Khinerai went for pre-order, the community website only listed one of the two.
Tomorrow we should get the usual pricing from dealers, we'll see if it includes the codex.
Hopefully it does and we get the first preview tomorrow too.

I seriously hope so. Some Harlequin info would be great at this time, so we can actually see if they're any good

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Let's hope that we Harlequin players get something powerful.

Personally looking out (and hoping) for:
Better toughness Starweaver (or at LEAST T6 Voidweaver - it's a Heavy Support, GW)
Cheaper Shadowseer
Cheaper weapons
Some awesome Masque Forms (have my eye on a 6" auto-advance one)
Nice psychic powers (re-rolling saves or hit rolls especially)
Buff to the Death Jester (so AP to his weapons would be great, higher damage to the one-shot mode)

NOTE: These are not leaks, but wishful thinking

**Unnamed Harlequin**

dan2026 wrote:The Death Jester needs a big buff.
A stronger gun and maybe a different ability.

I fully agree, I forgot about the Death Jester. I'll edit my previous post, because that's quite important.

Aren73 wrote:The Death jester needs a cool new ability, the current is useless.

I'd hope for something like "A unit targetted by the Death Jester is at -1 leadership until the end of the turn and if it fails it's morale test it suffers d3 mortal wounds"

Now yes that's pretty powerful (would come with a points increase) however I think it would make the death jester worth taking and be pretty thematic.

Then an artifact that gives enemies -1 leadership from Chapter approved and a psychic power to lower leadership further and it's a powerful but thematic synergy.

I suppose people could then spam Death Jesters, but with the FAQ you can have what, max 3 of them? 3 d3 mortal wounds is good but not game breaking.

It sounds strong, but (in my opinion) it really isn't. How often do you fail a Morale test? No opponent I've ever played has.

I think a better weapon is key.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

JNAProductions wrote:
I actually like the current Death Jester ability. It's just that too many people ignore morale.

Yeah. If he reduced leadership or increased the amount of models that fled that would be better, but his weapon still needs some AP and damage.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Aren73 wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
dan2026 wrote:The Death Jester needs a big buff.
A stronger gun and maybe a different ability.

I fully agree, I forgot about the Death Jester. I'll d]edit my previous post, because that's quite key.

Aren73 wrote:The Death jester needs a cool new ability, the current is useless.

I'd hope for something like "A unit targetted by the Death Jester is at -1 leadership until the end of the turn and if it fails it's morale test it suffers d3 mortal wounds"

Now yes that's pretty powerful (would come with a points increase) however I think it would make the death jester worth taking and be pretty thematic.

Then an artifact that gives enemies -1 leadership from Chapter approved and a psychic power to lower leadership further and it's a powerful but thematic synergy.

I suppose people could then spam Death Jesters, but with the FAQ you can have what, max 3 of them? 3 d3 mortal wounds is good but not game breaking.

It sounds strong, but (in my opinion) it really isn't. How often do you fail a Morale test? No opponent I've ever played has.

I think a better weapon is key.

With a -3 (the synergy from the other two parts I mentioned) failing a morale test shouldn't be that crazy. Yes they could use a stratagem to pass it, but firstly that's making them pay 2CP and secondly would only work on one unit.

Giving him a better weapon would be better than nothing, but for Harlequins especially I think we'd all appreciate inventive ways of dealing damage that are other than "hits hard in combat/shooting". If there is any army that should have weird/funny/inventive ways of dealing damage it should be Harlequins.

That's true - I suppose, in a way, that's why I started playing Harlequins (well that and their speed). While I like the idea of the special harlequiny rules, I still believe that the Death Jester needs to deal more damage as well as scare people off. Maybe mortal wounds or a 'blast' kind of weapon, I dunno. I believe the current rule is great, just hardly ever comes into play as so many things have good leadership or just min-size squads.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As well as the upgrades there are a few stratagems/abilities I would like to see.

One that occupies my thoughts a lot is a kind of ability that lets Harlequins disembark from Starweavers after they move. This sounds very Harlequin-y and Alpha-Strike-y. Maybe a 2CP Strat or an upgrade that accompanies a points increase. Possibly the Starweaver moves half distance, disembarks, and then moves the other half.

Another one I think suits the Harlequin tactics would be a stratagem that lets you re-roll the roll-off to see who can go first (but can only be used once).

A few people I've talked to seem to think (1) is too good and I personally think that (2) would be a bit powerful, but I'd like to hear you guys' opinions.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Aren73 wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin - I like the disembark one! The reroll rolloff would have to be something crazy like 3-4CP but it can be costed. Do you reroll your dice or both you and opponent?

I think a stratagem to let a unit move again in the combat phase, after all attacks have been made would be cool. You could jump in, shoot, charge and blend a unit then jump back behind cover. Also powerful but I believe it can be appropriately priced.

Thanks! As for the roll-off reroll, I'm not sure whether to say both or just the player reroll, but oh well. Maybe you can choose?
As for the price of it, 3-4 CP sounds about right, but maybe a sort of system where the cost is dependent on the chance of the re-roll being useful? e.g. for a 1/6 chance it's 1CP, 2/6 2CP, 3/6 3CP, etc...
I like the stratagem that lets a unit move again

. Although a move-AND-CHARGE-again one would be awesome, it would probably be too good

On a (TOTALLY unrelated) note, is there any GW e-mail you can send suggestions to?

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Tastyfish wrote:
Webway gate features in the regimental standard though, so that might be coming out ahead of the Harlequin release?

Possibly. But Harlequins are going out on preorder in four days (next week), right? So, if it does come ahead of Harlequins release it's not that much earlier. I personally assume that it will come in the codex, but this is an assumption and not fact.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

fresus wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:
Webway gate features in the regimental standard though, so that might be coming out ahead of the Harlequin release?

Possibly. But Harlequins are going out on preorder in four days (next week), right? So, if it does come ahead of Harlequins release it's not that much earlier. I personally assume that it will come in the codex, but this is an assumption and not fact.

This month's WD is actually wrong.
Both the Harlequin codex and webway gate should go on preorder on the 19th.
We should get the confirmation on Sunday on the WC website, and teasers of the Harlequin codex every say next week.

My apologies, perhaps I should make myself clearer:
What I meant that that WEEK of the preorder is on Monday, and (therefore) it is on preorder on the 19th.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

I personally like them all.
Veiled Path could be useful against WS 2+ units or even just using a re-roll on it to really mess up your opponent.
Frozen Stars is scary.
Midnight sorrow useful to prevent Falling Back.
Silent Shroud looks cool, but if you read it carefully it's not -1 PER UNIT but -1 as long as the is >= 1 unit(s) within 6".
Dreaming Shadow I like. Get killed by Centurions (or something) in Fight Phase, then shoot your Fusion Pistols back at them...
Soaring Spite reasonably useful, though to properly utilise it you need a lot of transports and guys with Fusion Pistols (in my opinion).

I'll have to see the new Stratagems, Psychic Powers and rules to be sure, but I'd probably choose the most boring one (Frozen Stars).

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Currently hoping for the psychic powers and stratagems to be better than this.

The Warlord Traits are what I'm most hopeful for, though.
Hopefully the Veiled Path one lets you choose the higher roll than the lower
I'll be interested to see the Silent Shroud one.
And who knows what bonkers ones the Midnight Sorrow or the Soaring Spite will get.

Sad to not see an auto-advance 6" one, but then again I'm sure that would be a bit good

Most people are underestimating Veiled Path, in my opinion. Against WS3+ guys, you have a 16/36 chance of having it help (without a command point). Sure, it's under a 50% chance, but it can be useful. And, being Harlequins (especially Veiled Path), I'll assume we have a way of getting Command Points back.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Tyel wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
Most people are underestimating Veiled Path, in my opinion. Against WS3+ guys, you have a 16/36 chance of having it help (without a command point). Sure, it's under a 50% chance, but it can be useful. And, being Harlequins (especially Veiled Path), I'll assume we have a way of getting Command Points back.

Its a 4/9 chance to take 25% less damage.
A flat 6+++ in close combat - i.e. a flat 16.6% less damage - would be considerably better and I don't think anyone would say that was good.

I'm not saying it's good, just that people ae underestimating it. It's certainly better than nothing

**Unnamed Harlequin**

the_scotsman wrote:
rollawaythestone wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Wow. They won't give you a HQ Great Harlequin but they will give you a stratagem for it. Damn GW can suck.

It's the same as the Chapter Master upgrade stratagem.

well, except that it only makes him as good as half of a space marine captain, and the chapter master upgrade gives you reroll all misses in shooting and in melee...but, details...

Troupe Masters also let you reroll all failed wound rolls, and with the Strategem re-roll hit rolls of 1. It also cost 1CP less. But, details...

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Pre-orders are usually on Saturdays, right?

**Unnamed Harlequin**

ImAGeek wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
Pre-orders are usually on Saturdays, right?

Always on Saturdays.

Thank you

2 more days to go...

**Unnamed Harlequin**

On the Nw Zealand site the preorder is $65NZ. According to google, this equals around £33, which is a horrific price. Are preorders always more expensive, is it because it's NZ, or will the HArlequins codex actually cost £33?

The first can't be true, because everything else is also more expensive, so is it 2 or 3?

**Unnamed Harlequin**

ImAGeek wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
On the Nw Zealand site the preorder is $65NZ. According to google, this equals around £33, which is a horrific price. Are preorders always more expensive, is it because it's NZ, or will the HArlequins codex actually cost £33?

The first can't be true, because everything else is also more expensive, so is it 2 or 3?

It’s because it’s NZ. Things are priced at a certain level in other countries that isn’t tied to the actual currency exchange. Codexes are £25 here. NZ and Australia pay a lot more for GW stuff than a straight exchange rate would be.

Yeah, I looked around and found that out. Thanks.

On a related note, is there any reason it's only up on the NZ and AU sites? I'm assuming it's because they are earliest.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Harlequins up on the UK site

Only £20

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Robin5t wrote:
Got my pre-order placed.

I'm gonna get it on Darksphere, it's only £15 there

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Tyel wrote:
Bit of a tl/dr - but looks like a missed opportunity to me, based obviously on pure theory.

There are quite a few little buffs - but nothing that takes things that were not viable before and boosts them up.

Troupes remain okay - good even - but continue to be very expensive wounds once you bling them out. There might be some optimal mix where you take ablative swordquins - but that in turn dilutes the output of the unit when you do make contact. You are going to have to support them with Troupe Masters & Shadowseers - both of which continue to be reasonable.

Actually one major positive before the litany of salt. The Death Jester might be good now (for the first time ever, possibly even since 2nd edition?). If you kill something with the Shrieker round that's going to be -4 to -6 to morale (1 dead, D3 extra mortal wounds, -2 to leadership on top). Its the kind of low effort-big effect that freakshow needs to be effective. Throw in silent shroud and other effects (hemlocks) and you are starting to get a massive impact on leadership without sacrificing very much. Then when they fail morale you can grab special or heavy weapons or champions etc. The downside is that your chances of killing say a Marine are only around 1/3 - but for 45 points with the mortal wound carry over that isn't terrible. This probably needs testing rather than theory - but taking 3 and seeing how they do is probably worth a shot.

From then on though its all a bit sad.

The Neuro Disruptor remains flat out garbage and is never getting taken unless someone just likes the model. Its not even getting especially competitive levels of efficiency versus Terminators and I think that's about as good as it gets. Even more unfortunately - given its the iconic weapon - the kiss remains rubbish as well. Against say Primaris, which strike me as the go-to 2 wound model you might use it against, its less efficient than using a caress or embrace. Same for terminators. Meanwhile its dramatically worse against one wound models. I have an un-assembled box of Harlequins on my table, but can I build them with kisses knowing they are rubbish? I want to - but I think I will just regret it.

Starweavers are okay I guess - but at 99 points you are paying a lot. Yes 4++, yes -1 to hit, its fast and can fly. But at this level of points 2 Shruriken cannons are pretty awful. In fact this is a running theme - I don't think there is a model across the Eldar range where once you pay for the model, a Shuriken cannon is worth an additional 10 points. I think Venoms are bordering on inefficient in a modern DE list and they are a lot cheaper and do more damage than this. Sure its 5++ vs 4++, but a 5++ is still pretty good for 3/4 the points.
Unfortunately I think you need them unless you lots of LOS-blocking terrain - which doesn't tend to turn up at tournaments. Without them your troupes will just be shot off the table - so its kind of a further tax on troupes. They are super fast but its not as if Troupes are slow.

The Solitaire continues to not really have a niche as you essentially pay for a 5 man troupe but hit like having 2.5-3 guys. On the upside you can go really fast once per game. Its not bad but its not doing much that you don't already get. Basically I think it would have been nice if he could menace say greater daemons and he can't really.

Despite the slight points drop Skyweavers are very expensive for what they do. Its nice to imagine shooting, charging, withdrawing, shooting, charging, grabbing objectives repeat etc - but this assumes your opponent is just oblivious. For that many points their shooting is poor and their melee is poor. Haywire cannons might be okay I guess - but I feel rolling D6 shots, then having to fish for 6s for the D3 mortal wounds will make the gun very erratic. Really though why these things have 3 attacks in melee when a troupe has 4 makes no sense. The grenade is okay I guess but since you can only fire one per unit (and D3 shots, so more random chance, yay) its kind of limited. Also if you don't take the glaive your melee is dire. I can imagine with buffs they will be weirdly annoying to kill with shooting but I am just not sure they really do enough to be a concern.

The Voidweaver's main gun is assault. Good. Unfortunately the vehicle still sucks though - again its the Shruriken cannons that let it down. Also the prismatic's other profiles should have been 6 shots 3 shots 1 shot rather than D6, D3 and 1. Haywire doing d6 shots again, might be okay but would I take a whole Voidweaver to get it? I don't think so. They don't as I see it benefit from any of the Forms, they don't bring anything you don't have elsewhere. Comparing them to ravagers is just sad.

So where does that leave the codex? I think in a casual setting, against a MEQ focused meta I think you will do okay. Against more optimised lists, your Imperial soups, CSM without any CSM, your modern Xenos? Not liking your chances.

I agree that Shuriken Cannons are overpriced, and the new best unit might even be the Death Jester. But I still believe that Harlequins have a potential to hurt armies. Maybe playing an all-Harlequins army isn't exactly the best tactic, but it worked reasonably well for me before the codex and I'm sure it will now.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

Goobi2 wrote:
SS82 has those strats.

I am looking forward to using the cloak of hidden blades relic on a suicide character with the -1 to hit strat.

Yeah. Use the two psychic powers that makes you -1 to hit, chuck in the strat and you have a -3. And, they can't not attack.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a compilation of the points changes (from index ----> codex):

Does not include wargear. Points per model.

Death Jester 75 ----> 45 (-30)
Shadowseer 134 ---> 125 (-9)
Skyweaver 35 ----> 30 (-5)
Solitaire 94 -----> 84 (-10)
Starweaver 79 -----> 79 (+-0)
Troupe 15 -----> 13 (-2)
Troupe Master 59 -----> 70 (+11)
Voidweaver 68 -----> 68 (+-0)

Melee weapons.

Blade 1 -------> 0 (-1)
Caress 9 -------> 7 (-2)
Embrace 6 -------> 6 (-0)
Kiss 14 ------> 7 (-7 ---- -50%)
Miststave 0 -------> 0 (+-0)
Power Sword 4 -------> 4 (+-0)
Zephyrglaive 11 -----> 6 (-5)

Ranged weapons.

Fusion Pistol 9 -----> 9 (+-0)
HGL 0 -----> 0 (+-0)
Haywire Cannon 14 ---> 15 (+1)
Neuro Dis. 10 ---> 10 (+-0)
Pris. Cannon 20 ---> 20 (+-0)
Pris. Grenades 0 ----> 0 (+-0) NOW CALLED PLASMA GRENADES LIKE THE CWE ONES
Shrieker Cannon 0 ----> 0 (+-0)
Shuriken Cannon 10 ---> 10 (+-0)
Shuriken Pistol 0 ----> 0 (+-0)
Star bolas 0 ----> 0 (+-0)

**Unnamed Harlequin**

barnacle111 wrote:
I think only the single shot gets d3 mortal wounds of you kill? So like the index... that's what he seemed to be on striking scorpions review.

According to the miniwargaming review, both types get the D3.
They spoke of a combo:

DJ with curtainfall + strat that lets each hit count as 2 but each 6+ as 3 + strat that gives +1S and D3 damage = lots of dead guys followed by lots of mortal wounds.

Of course, though, only one DJ can take the Curtainfall.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

I have now got the codex, and I can confirm that only the shrieker profile of Curtainfall does D3 mortal wounds on the kill.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

the_scotsman wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
I have now got the codex, and I can confirm that only the shrieker profile of Curtainfall does D3 mortal wounds on the kill.

Yes, but I am curious about one thing.

Unambiguously, Curtainfall deals out the -2LD if any casualties are caused by THIS WEAPON (meaning, I assume, Curtainfall). So that would include Shrieker or Shuriken ammo. But in the normal Shrieker Cannon, that wording is identical, but oddly, only in the Shrieker ammo description.

it still says "-2LD if any casualties are caused by THIS WEAPON" but it's within the Shrieker profile.

So, does that mean that a normal SC only causes -2LD with its Shrieker profile but Curtainfall deals -2LD with both?

Yeah, that's what it means - -2 on both Curtainfall modes, -2 just on shrieker mode for shrieker cannon.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

fresus wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
I have now got the codex, and I can confirm that only the shrieker profile of Curtainfall does D3 mortal wounds on the kill.

Yes, but I am curious about one thing.

Unambiguously, Curtainfall deals out the -2LD if any casualties are caused by THIS WEAPON (meaning, I assume, Curtainfall). So that would include Shrieker or Shuriken ammo. But in the normal Shrieker Cannon, that wording is identical, but oddly, only in the Shrieker ammo description.

it still says "-2LD if any casualties are caused by THIS WEAPON" but it's within the Shrieker profile.

So, does that mean that a normal SC only causes -2LD with its Shrieker profile but Curtainfall deals -2LD with both?

Yeah, that's what it means - -2 on both Curtainfall modes, -2 just on shrieker mode for shrieker cannon.

That's what's written yes. But, as the_scotsman pointed out, the wording is the same as the normal shrieker cannon. I believe the -2Ld is only meant to apply to the shrieker profile, but without a FAQ you can play it as working with both profiles.

I agree with you, but a part of me is thinking about how a scary killer clown shooting a great big relic weapon is enough to do -2 Ld whether he shoots at you or not

**Unnamed Harlequin**

fresus wrote:
I sent the question to the FAQ email, hopefully they didn't mess up with the rule writing, and the -2 Ld on every mode is really intended.

Incidentally, what is the FAQ email? Thanks.

**Unnamed Harlequin**

fresus wrote:
Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
Incidentally, what is the FAQ email? Thanks.

40KFAQ@gwplc.com (from WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/)

Thank you!