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Now the points and stats have been leaked, which knights out of the codex variants do people think will be most likely to place well at tournaments for their points cost?

Probably any of them with a thunder strike gauntlet.

There's a stratagem where after combat the knight rolls to hit, (gallant know has a 2+ WS) then I think it does D3 MW then players roll off adding the strength of the units to the roll and each time the knight player wins it does a MW or the opposing player wins the roll off. Pretty scary stratagem. Oh and it's 1 Cp

You don’t have the gallant on the list (not saying it’s the most competitive)

Those Helverin seem really good. So good I've considered making an Ad Mech army to field 3 of them.

You don't have Gallant on the list (and I AM saying it's the most competitive )

 fraser1191 wrote:
Probably any of them with a thunder strike gauntlet.

There's a stratagem where after combat the knight rolls to hit, (gallant know has a 2+ WS) then I think it does D3 MW then players roll off adding the strength of the units to the roll and each time the knight player wins it does a MW or the opposing player wins the roll off. Pretty scary stratagem. Oh and it's 1 Cp

I don't know about most competitive but god does that stratagem give me a stiffy, I might have to get myself a second Knight...

Fixed the poll. Also forgot the crusader... There were more of them than I remembered haha

 mrhappyface wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Probably any of them with a thunder strike gauntlet.

There's a stratagem where after combat the knight rolls to hit, (gallant know has a 2+ WS) then I think it does D3 MW then players roll off adding the strength of the units to the roll and each time the knight player wins it does a MW or the opposing player wins the roll off. Pretty scary stratagem. Oh and it's 1 Cp

I don't know about most competitive but god does that stratagem give me a stiffy, I might have to get myself a second Knight...

I had regrets about building a Gallant. But now give him the relic gauntlet with no penalty hitting on 2s. Oh boy gimme that book

And the chap's 354pts now. Same price as a Landaider.

I'm going with old trusty crusader. Hefty firepower in an shooting game.

While I'm loving the feel of the valiant's game mechanics, I think the most competitive unit is definitely the little helverin. Very tightly costed for what amounts to a souped up dreadnought with some ballin' guns.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Probably any of them with a thunder strike gauntlet.

There's a stratagem where after combat the knight rolls to hit, (gallant know has a 2+ WS) then I think it does D3 MW then players roll off adding the strength of the units to the roll and each time the knight player wins it does a MW or the opposing player wins the roll off. Pretty scary stratagem. Oh and it's 1 Cp

Call me curious, as I'm currently building a knight Gallant myself, where in the rules leaks does it say that the Gallant hits on 2+ in melee?

I can only find what I assume are Index Imperium scans of the datasheet for the Gallant showing WS:3+.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm struggling to find much about the Helverins. Seems others know the loadout and points, any chance someone could post some details?

Not asking for the full datasheet of course, don't want to get the attention of GW, but like what are those guns?

Stux wrote:
I'm struggling to find much about the Helverins. Seems others know the loadout and points, any chance someone could post some details?

Not asking for the full datasheet of course, don't want to get the attention of GW, but like what are those guns?

4D3 "Predator Autocannon" shots with Damage 3 and range 60, move and shoot without penalty, T7, 12 Wounds, 3+/5++, run as fast as a Jetbike-Shield Captain flies, have a nifty anti-flyer Stratagem and of course get House-traits, etc...

It's very similar to an Autocannon Mortis Contemptor actually. Contemptor hits on 2+ but does not ignore move-and-shoot heavy weapons, Helverin hits on 3+ standing still or moving. Helverin runs faster, has 2 more wounds, has 12" more range, 1 more damage per shot, potentially 2 more shots (or 2 less) and some nifty household traits and stratagems to use.

170-ish with the Stubber and over 180 with the meltagun.

Damage 3 spam seems popular these days (hello Tau Ion-Heads), and these could fill it for the Imperium. Unlike, say, Ion-Heads for Tau (or proper Knights), you can tie them down with cc though.

Wow that is very nice. The set isn't that expensive as far GW goes in my opinion either!

I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

CelticKodiak wrote:
I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

Its 3 copies of the datasheet and both armiger knights can be taken in squadrons of upto 3 per LoW slot like leman russed so thats 9 helverins and 9 forgebane ones if you have the point's. And don't want CP.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Probably any of them with a thunder strike gauntlet.

There's a stratagem where after combat the knight rolls to hit, (gallant know has a 2+ WS) then I think it does D3 MW then players roll off adding the strength of the units to the roll and each time the knight player wins it does a MW or the opposing player wins the roll off. Pretty scary stratagem. Oh and it's 1 Cp

Call me curious, as I'm currently building a knight Gallant myself, where in the rules leaks does it say that the Gallant hits on 2+ in melee?

I can only find what I assume are Index Imperium scans of the datasheet for the Gallant showing WS:3+.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You can find it in a few of the rules, but the Gallant has 2+ WS and +1 A over the other knights in the Codex.

And you can get him up to 6A with a D8 weapon, hitting on 2s, if you're going in deep on him. Go Terryn and you can attack again. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but that's an upper limit of 96 damage in one fight phase. Top it off with a sprinkle of death grip to get that magic 100 damage!

Death grip stratagem

Much too early to say.

We can theoryhammer all we want, but until we’ve got games under belts, there’s still plenty of surprises to come.

Death Grip requires it be a 1-model unit. But that is super cool. Run him into Custodes.

I think it’s going to be the Helverins as they are so plug-and-play. Really simple to slot 3 of them into any Imperium list. We’ll just have to see if they’re good enough.

In case it helps you make a decision, here's the Death Grip maths:

Versus:

S1/2 - Auto Kill

S3 - 1/36 chance to escape, average of ~73MW

S4 - 1/12 chance to escape, ~25MW

S5 - 1/6 chance to escape, ~13MW

S6 - 5/18 chance to escape, ~8MW

S7 - 5/12 chance to escape, ~6MW

S8 - 7/12 chance to escape, ~4MW

S9 - 13/18 chance to escape, ~3MW

S10 - 5/6 chance to escape, ~3MW

Death Grip insta deletes (ok you have 16% of failing that 2+ hit, but if you use another CP for a reroll if you REALLY want that death) all S4 characters (so all space marine HQ's), and even Custodes aren't safe.

Of course, it needs for you to be in meele... but 1 CP to basically insta kill a Custodes Captain in Jetbike? Yes please.

The Warglaive also got a nice boost. It now has a melee profile for hordes and it dropped about 50 points making it a very competitive fast dreadnaught. The Helverin is probably better in a lot of armies but I wouldn't discount the Warglaive.

IIRC the Warden also got a pretty significant point drop, making reasonably competitive.

Ice_can wrote:

CelticKodiak wrote:
I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

Its 3 copies of the datasheet and both armiger knights can be taken in squadrons of upto 3 per LoW slot like leman russed so thats 9 helverins and 9 forgebane ones if you have the point's. And don't want CP.

I mean if you wanted you could take 3 of the cheapest knights, the Gallants, deck one or two out with a WT and relic, and take 3 Helverin, possibly more, not sure of the points. That would get you the CP, and a pack of Helverin hounds to run about the board dakkaing the gak out of everything. Would be an interesting strategy, not sure what house would work best, possibly a charging one for the Gallants since the Helverins massed shots wouldn't exactly need rerolls.

CelticKodiak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

CelticKodiak wrote:
I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

Its 3 copies of the datasheet and both armiger knights can be taken in squadrons of upto 3 per LoW slot like leman russed so thats 9 helverins and 9 forgebane ones if you have the point's. And don't want CP.

I mean if you wanted you could take 3 of the cheapest knights, the Gallants, deck one or two out with a WT and relic, and take 3 Helverin, possibly more, not sure of the points. That would get you the CP, and a pack of Helverin hounds to run about the board dakkaing the gak out of everything. Would be an interesting strategy, not sure what house would work best, possibly a charging one for the Gallants since the Helverins massed shots wouldn't exactly need rerolls.

Oh if you are wanting 3 regular knights and 3 helverin that works out for 2k even with...well about every combo. 492 pts per knight to spend after 3 helverins.

3 gallant, 5 helverins would also work out.

Another thing is do you WANT 3 gallants. They are good but not that good and the way non-scalable relic/strategems works 2nd and 3rd gallant are much less powerful than 1st one.

CelticKodiak wrote:
I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

"Rule of 3" is not a formal matched play rule. It's just a recommendation for larger events, though presumably most tournaments will adopt it. But if it's not explicitly in the tournament rules package, it's not a thing.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

CelticKodiak wrote:
I assume the rule of 3 effects the Helverin, so even if you could fit 4, it wouldn't be allowed, or have those rules been tossed since the FAQ in March?

"Rule of 3" is not a formal matched play rule. It's just a recommendation for larger events, though presumably most tournaments will adopt it. But if it's not explicitly in the tournament rules package, it's not a thing.

It's thing pretty much everywhere here at least tournament or not. It's about as common as "max 3 detachments". Ie virtually every game. I have seen more variance on whether you can premeasure or not!

But anyway irrelevant here anyway. You can get 9 of both either way. Unlikely you really want more than 9 either anyway. 1566 pts for 9 helverins...