Why melta-guns

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**JmOz01**

I am having a real hard time wrapping my brain around why meltaguns are better than plasma guns (based on price) for IG.

I currently have 20 special weapons in my army list...because of some psychoses of mine I have an inclination to put 4 of each in. But as I look at meltaguns I feel that the plasma gun is so much better and cheaper. So I ask, what am I missing. Experience is more important to me than math btw...

**Apple Peel**

I think they used to be better, but they took a big nerf when the Edition changed. Plasma guns are better, unless you facing a tough, mechanized list. And even then.

**JohnnyHell**

You’re not missing anything. In this edition plasma is currently king and Melta is currently overcosted.

**Kharneth**

JmOz01 wrote:
I am having a real hard time wrapping my brain around why meltaguns are better than plasma guns (based on price) for IG.

I currently have 20 special weapons in my army list...because of some psychoses of mine I have an inclination to put 4 of each in. But as I look at meltaguns I feel that the plasma gun is so much better and cheaper. So I ask, what am I missing. Experience is more important to me than math btw...

You're not missing anything. Plasma guns are currently outperforming meltaguns.

In short, plasma has the versatility of being used against a variety of targets to great effect and has typical range. Meltaguns are dedicated vehicle/monster/character slayers. The way to get the most out of your meltaguns is to make sure they are shooting at vehicles or monsters.

The meltagun has some advantages over the plasma gun:
Meltaguns come with no risk; they do not overheat.
Meltaguns do d6 damage instead of 1 or 2. On average this means you're dealing 3-4 damage per unsaved wound.
Really, the only points justification for taking a meltagun is getting those half-range shots in (6") where you roll 2d6 for damage and pick the highest. Meltaguns can reliably deal 4-5 wounds up close.

If you don't have a reliable plan to get within 6" of an enemy vehicle or monster, you'll probably have more luck with your plasma.

**Galef**

JohnnyHell wrote:
In this edition plasma is currently king and Melta is currently overcosted.

I can agree with this, however, a single plasma cannot strip more than a couple wounds off a multi-wound model like a vehicle and as most vehicles are T7, plasma has to risk overcharge to wound on 3+, while Meltas have no risk (aside from needing to get closer)

At the end of the day, I feel they should be costed exactly the same because they are different tools for different situations.

Kharneth wrote:

In short, plasma has the versatility of being used against a variety of targets to great effect and has typical range. Meltaguns are dedicated vehicle/monster/character slayers. The way to get the most out of your meltaguns is to make sure they are shooting at vehicles or monsters.

100% this. Plasmas are more useful in more situations. However, in the situations that are ideal for Meltas, you'll really wish you had a Melta

My philosophy would be to have a ratio of 1 Melta for every 2-3 Plasmas in your army.
But only if you can get them on fast platforms that can respond to their ideal target. Bikes, for example
If you can't do this, then just stick with Plasmas

-

**JmOz01**

My current build has (for special weapons)

06.....6 Infantry man
04.....2 Command squads (2 each)
06.....3 Rough Rider units (2 each)
04.....1 Scions command squad (4 each)
---
20

Right now
infantry have 3 Flamers and Grenade Launchers

Command Squad has sniper rifles

Scions have Plasma

Rough riders have Grenade Launcher, Flamer, 4 Melta's

**sfshilo**

I love all this talk about melta sucking compared to plasma....

It's 2D6 at half range pick the highest for everything now. For fast mechanized forces, like sisters or marines, you can do quite a bit of damage.

Everyone assumes plasma does 2 damage, but that only works with rerolls, melta works everywhere.

On the Op's question, IG are poor in BS, pistols are much better, melta guns are really wasted on that type of model. It has more to do with the army style than the weapon itself.

**Primark G**

I could see melta making a comeback if Knights become part of the competitive meta.

**Galef**

sfshilo wrote:
Everyone assumes plasma does 2 damage, but that only works with rerolls, melta works everywhere.

I don't understand this statement. What do rerolls have to do with it, other than avoiding Overcharge casualties?
A single plasma can actually do 4 damage total. Granted it needs to Overcharge in Rapid fire distance (2 shots at 2 damage each) but that is risky without rerolls. Even riskier if the enemy has -1 to hit rules.

Both weapons have clear efficiencies, but since Melta is more limited in targets it can be effective at, Plasma is considered better. Bottom line is Melta shouldn't be more expensive than Plasma.

-

**Galas**

To be honest Melta Guns are very much worth it in my ravenwing bikers. They need to advance every turn and I can't use "Speed of the raven" all the time to allow them to shoot their plasma guns.

And with 18" movement I have no problem getting them in melta range.

**JmOz01**

I can see that, but if they were limited to 10" movement would you feel that way?

**vipoid**

sfshilo wrote:
I love all this talk about melta sucking compared to plasma....

It's 2D6 at half range pick the highest for everything now. For fast mechanized forces, like sisters or marines, you can do quite a bit of damage.

Personally, I don't think Melta sucks compared to Plasma. I think Melta sucks compared to Lascannons.

**Martel732**

Melta sucks period. It would still suck if lascannons didn't exist.

**Marmatag**

Melta should be improved. Flat 3 base, flat 6 in melta range. Then, it's appropriately costed.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
Melta sucks period. It would still suck if lascannons didn't exist.

Maybe it is just the scale of the games I've played most in 8th (500-1000pts) but without Meltas, vehicles would never die in my games at all. And we use Plasma too.
Melta does not suck, it is just 5pts or so too expensive.

-

**Martel732**

No, melta outright sucks. Especially vs Xenos. Low rate of fire is the kiss of death in 8th, and invulns are just the final insult.

It takes ~8 shots from the warglaive weapon to down an 80 pt raider. That's nuts.

**Kharneth**

OP, ask yourself this:

Does my list have enough to counter vehicles and monsters?

The choice between Plasma and Melta also comes down to your army composition as a whole. As an Imperial Guard player, you have a lot of options for anti-tank weaponry. If you're already fielding sufficient anti-tank weapons than you're probably better off getting all Plasma. If you have a lack of anti-tank than the extra power from a meltagun over a plasma gun might be more important to you.

If you really just want to use all of the special weapons, find which of your units would be able to use the meltaguns to the greatest effect. I think your rough riders is the right choice, however as has already been stated, BS 4+ isn't going to do your meltaguns any favors. You'll need 2 meltaguns if you want to get a single hit, but 4 meltaguns on a rough rider squad should be able to take down a vehicle.

**Martel732**

Just bring more battlecannons. You'll be fine. Don't give your 4 pt dum dums anything. They're there to die.

**meleti**

Plasma is good but struggles a lot against hit penalties. I’m not convinced that spamming plasma guns is a good solution to anything.

**Martel732**

Most armies don't get to-hit penalties, though. Also, IG don't really care if they blow up.

**kurhanik**

Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Melta sucks period. It would still suck if lascannons didn't exist.

Maybe it is just the scale of the games I've played most in 8th (500-1000pts) but without Meltas, vehicles would never die in my games at all. And we use Plasma too.
Melta does not suck, it is just 5pts or so too expensive.

-

Basically this is my opinion - if Melta and Plasma were just price swapped, a lot of problems would go away. Melta itself is fine, if somewhat situational due to its short range. It just gets sidelined by Plasma, which is more versatile due to a longer range, flexible settings (if you are firing at 1 wound models no need to overheat), the number of rerolls/reroll 1s in the game, and then the fact that Plasma is the cheaper option.

In the Guard example in the OP, if Plasma were 12/17 and Melta were 7/13, it would actually begin to become a meaningful choice. As it currently stands though, Melta has the honor of being a short ranged weapon in a mostly mid to long ranged army, and is outshone by Plasma in the special weapon slot, and for 3 points more you can just get a Lascannon on a BS 3+ model and do the same damage but at a much greater range.

**Martel732**

That's still too expensive for melta. The opportunity cost of short range and only being S8 push its value down really far.

The -4 AP is downright useless against most targets now.

**vipoid**

Martel732 wrote:
Most armies don't get to-hit penalties, though.

Off the top of my head, the following armies all have -1 to hit penalties for at least some units or subfactions:
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Tau
Space Marines (Raven Guard)
CSM (Alpha Legion)
Necrons
Tyranids

**Martel732**

Some units don't cut it. The plasma will find its way to the units w/o the penalties. I'd argue the 12" -1 to hit bubbles don't cut it, either, because that's the range plasma wants to be at anyway. I've never lost a marine to overloaded plasma vs Raven Guard or Alpha legion myself by rolling a 2.

**tneva82**

sfshilo wrote:
I love all this talk about melta sucking compared to plasma....

It's 2D6 at half range pick the highest for everything now. For fast mechanized forces, like sisters or marines, you can do quite a bit of damage.

Everyone assumes plasma does 2 damage, but that only works with rerolls, melta works everywhere.

On the Op's question, IG are poor in BS, pistols are much better, melta guns are really wasted on that type of model. It has more to do with the army style than the weapon itself.

Need for rerolls would be fair point if gw didn#t hand out rerolls like candy so you always have rerolls thus making plasma better even against vehicles that aren't land raider caliber. And are cheaper. And can actually get to optimal range unlike melta

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Melta sucks period. It would still suck if lascannons didn't exist.

Maybe it is just the scale of the games I've played most in 8th (500-1000pts) but without Meltas, vehicles would never die in my games at all. And we use Plasma too.
Melta does not suck, it is just 5pts or so too expensive.

-

Thanks to quaranteea rerolls(thanks gw) making overcharge no brainer plasma is better vs vehicles. Well except 2+ but unlikely to be on that point level

**Kommissar Kel**

Galef wrote:
sfshilo wrote:
Everyone assumes plasma does 2 damage, but that only works with rerolls, melta works everywhere.
I don't understand this statement. What do rerolls have to do with it, other than avoiding Overcharge casualties?
A single plasma can actually do 4 damage total. Granted it needs to Overcharge in Rapid fire distance (2 shots at 2 damage each) but that is risky without rerolls. Even riskier if the enemy has -1 to hit rules.

Both weapons have clear efficiencies, but since Melta is more limited in targets it can be effective at, Plasma is considered better. Bottom line is Melta shouldn't be more expensive than Plasma.

-

Middle paragraph proves the final one: at the 12-6" with easy to get rerolls to hit plasma performs exactly the same as melta.

Multi meltas are actually worse than Plasma cannons and are also over-costed.

**kurhanik**

meleti wrote:Plasma is good but struggles a lot against hit penalties. I’m not convinced that spamming plasma guns is a good solution to anything.

The thing with Plasma is that you don't actually have to use the overheat. Strength 7 damage 1 is still useful for taking on infantry. Plus, with a few exceptions, most hit penalties are "if you are more than 12" away from your opponent" type deals. That means if you are in rapid fire range for Plasma, you don't particularly care about the -1 to hit because it doesn't effect you.

Martel732 wrote:That's still too expensive for melta. The opportunity cost of short range and only being S8 push its value down really far.

The -4 AP is downright useless against most targets now.

You might be right there, I just think it does have a role, but that it is so niche that you have to build your plan around it.

I do kind of wonder what changes might make Melta more competitive, without making it the new broken.

**Martel732**

Make melta double strength in melta range. This will cause more wounds, and force more saves. As it stands, melta can't force enough saves to be remotely worthwhile.

**Galas**

JmOz01 wrote:
I can see that, but if they were limited to 10" movement would you feel that way?

Oh yeah. Ravenwing bikers is the only way I have find Melta usefull, and not only usefull but actually pretty good. Marines don't have Fire Dragons like Eldar that can have a 22" treat range turn 1.

**p5freak**

As a BA player i like my inferno pistols. They are 6" range melta pistols, costing 9 pts. A little expensive, but once in melee they can be devastating.