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What do you think? There are definitely far too many overcosted (and undercosted) units at the minute, what are the most blaringly obvious units that need changes?


Please don't turn this thread into an argument about marines.

I hope guardsmen go up a point or two. They are simply too spamable.

Monolith, LR need points reductions.
Drop Pods just need.....well not sure what they need tbh.
Tervigon probably a points drop too.

Terminators across all flavours of marine.

Crisis suits.

Gitdakka wrote:
I hope guardsmen go up a point or two. They are simply too spamable.

Same could be said about Kabalites.


Overall , Hellturkey is to expensive.
I pricedrop for transports that are groundbound (Chimeras, Landraiders, Rhinos, etc of all flavours including Orkz)

Militia Squads and Mutantrabble could go down in points to 3 ppm.

The dinobot is too expensive.
Terminators of all colours are too expensive.
Maybee a slight pricdrop for regular marines overall (1-2pts)? That one is up for debate in one of the other threads though.

Most FW units in the chaos index.

Imho for necrons:

Monolith , Anni Barge , Scythes , nearly every Inf Unit by some points since RP is straight up garbage.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

heck the whole DKoK line could live comfortably well with a point reduction.

Most of the inquisition.

They missed the last chapter approved and are still paying old index marine prices on wargear - 25pts for a S6 WS5+ hammer for instance.

Also some of the ministorum. Both they and the inquisition are persona non grata as far as stratagems, relics, and chapter approved in general are concerned.

Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

They need to bring in a blanket rule that the -1 to hit doesn't stack (so the maximum modifier you have is -1).
A lot of other things tbh need more than a points adjustment.
I'd like to see the old Drop Pod Assault rule, maybe for tac squads only, so you can have a fluffy SM 1st-turn pod in?
That'd increase SM playability. But you'd have to have some careful limitations.

zerosignal wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greyknights? maybee also should be taken in and regarded more carefully?
I don't want them to be topdog but atleast back in the midtier again?
Certain Eldar Aspects also should be looked at again.
Maybee increase the Cost of Warlocks, etc to stop the -bs shenanigans that are going on. It shuts down low BS armies way to hard and effectively as that it would be good for the Meta.

They need to bring in a blanket rule that the -1 to hit doesn't stack (so the maximum modifier you have is -1).
A lot of other things tbh need more than a points adjustment.
I'd like to see the old Drop Pod Assault rule, maybe for tac squads only, so you can have a fluffy SM 1st-turn pod in?
That'd increase SM playability. But you'd have to have some careful limitations.

Highly depends on what SM we are talking. Normal Tac marines would be no problem to deal with, just charge them with a chaff unit and watch them doing nothing for the rest of the game or getting out attritioned pts wise.
Elite marines would be really annnoying to deal with, and primaris DA with hellblasters would be certainly broken.

They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

Custodes Vertus Praetors need a price increase of 5-10 points per model. Custodes Terminators need a similar decrease. The Custodes Venerable Land Raider could drop by 15 points and still only be OK.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

How about... Yes!

Seriously though, whatever happens a 6 should always be a hit. Low BS armies need that bone thrown to them as a minimum.

Wraithknights need a significant point drop and/or reworking. Crisis suits should drop a little. Grey knights need...a lot of help.

 Asmodai wrote:
Custodes Vertus Praetors need a price increase of 5-10 points per model. Custodes Terminators need a similar decrease. The Custodes Venerable Land Raider could drop by 15 points and still only be OK.

Land Raiders in general are overpriced. They should all get a decrease.

Regular Custodes bikes aren't too bad, but the Captain could certainly do with a nudge up.

For Tyranids:

Tervigon: Id say over by 10ish pts at least

Tyranid prime: 20-30 pts over he should be about 70 pts b4 wargear plus give him access to MRC(at a cost of about 10 pts, Venom Cannon and barbed strangler at regular costs.

Brood lord: drop at least 12 pts to 150pts. He is good but The GSC (Paterarch is 150pts and is all around better)

Old one eye: drop 20 pts to 180pts He's beefy but with no inv he dies too easily.

Tyranid warriors: 2 ppm from 20 base to 18. This would make these the centerpiece uit they were always ment to be.

Hormigaunts down to 1ppm to match termigaunts. Yes they are faster and stabbier but no AP and shooting and 4+ WS with 6+ tshirt save is not as good as termagaunts. Also there should be a Tervigon option to birth hormagaunts

Lictors need better stats/rules or a 5-10pts reduction

Tyrannocytes need to drop about 10 pts.

Hive crone and harpy both need better rules or a points drop by 10-15pts at least.

Spore mines need to drop to 5 ppm but if this happens they must have a rule where they do not count as a unit deployed during the deployment phase.

Stux wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Stux wrote:
They should take a page out of D&D's (extensive) book and type their modifiers. Modifiers of the same type don't stack.

So -1 encomberance modifier from heavy weapons would stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Raven Guard chapter tactic, but the -1 concealment modifier from a Dark Shroud would not stack with the -1 concealment modifier from Shroud of the unseen, because they are the same type.

How about no.
How about removing that modifier instead? Because at it's stand all low bs armies suffer exponentially more from this then high bs armies?

How about... Yes!

Seriously though, whatever happens a 6 should always be a hit. Low BS armies need that bone thrown to them as a minimum.

That i can agree on.
I still don't understand why that mechanic was even introduced, as it stands it is completely uninteractive and in some cases denies counterplay completely for the shooting phase.
If they really want to keep the mechanic, atleast give it to specific units/equipment and then price accordingly.

-Titans. Not enough to bring them into normal size games, but they tend to be ludicrously overcosted if you play apoc with points instead of PL.

-Basically all standard battle-brother marines. Having pitiful offense in a game where killing something early negates their damage output by 5-7 times over is horrible, and their mediocre defense doesn’t save them.

-land raiders. They’re quite hard to justify when a tad more points gets you a knight. It doesn’t help that marines don’t have great options to transport in them.

-Lord Commander Dante. Apparently being the regent of half the imperium makes him hyper expensive to field while giving him no additional benefit in battle.

-terminators. I dream of the day when terminators actually have something to do with someone placing well in a big event.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-Titans. Not enough to bring them into normal size games, but they tend to be ludicrously overcosted if you play apoc with points instead of PL.

-Basically all standard battle-brother marines. Having pitiful offense in a game where killing something early negates their damage output by 5-7 times over is horrible, and their mediocre defense doesn’t save them.

-land raiders. They’re quite hard to justify when a tad more points gets you a knight. It doesn’t help that marines don’t have great options to transport in them.

-Lord Commander Dante. Apparently being the regent of half the imperium makes him hyper expensive to field while giving him no additional benefit in battle.

-terminators. I dream of the day when terminators actually have something to do with someone placing well in a big event.

you can get a full amiriger Hellverin and most of a second one. They still outperform the landraider, and since it is not an assult tank anymore it can't even be justified above rhinos for CC units

Custodes
- Terminators need a drop.
- The FW tanks need a drop. (albeit the rules are only Beta at the moment)
- Land Raider needs a drop.
- I can see Vertus Praetors going up a bit in the next CA.

Most of the larger FW stuff needs a huge drop. For some of the smaller supers like Warhounds, an increase was expected, but not to the extent they've done. Warhound and Reavers have almost tripled in points, all the Daemon Lords are way overcosted, Stompas are laughable how overpriced they are.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Most FW units in the chaos index.

I second this. Zarakynel was good at 480 (I think that was originally her cost). Now, she's a bee's dick shy of twice the points of a Knight Gallant . The entire R&H list from Astra Militarum could use a look, as could the Malcador tank -

aw hell, there's a lot of FW stuff that's just junk since the codexes came out.

I will third this. That rediculous points hike on lots of the armor and the low daemons was insane. Plus I want to see the Dreadclaw and blood slaughterers go down.

Terminators and WKs for sure need about 25% points drops at minimum, or some sort of rework.

Windriders and Shining Spears also need points adjustments.
Given the rules for them, you should be able to get 2 basic WRs for the cost of 1 Spear.
However, Spears DO NOT NEED a large points increase. 3-4ppm max. Keep in mind that the majority of what makes them "OP" are the affects from OTHER UNITS. I am not a huge advocate for making a unit pay for the abilities from other units *might* use on them.
Units should pay for what they can do with no buffs. The units that can buff should pay for being able to buff.

So bump the Spears up *a tiny bit* and drop the points of WR so that 2 WRs (w/ twincats) are equal to or less than 1 Spear.
Ideally, a single Spear should be 35-36pp, and a WR should be 16-17ppm after basic wargear
2 WRs with Shuricannon or Scatter laser can cost more than 1 Spear, however. Say 21-22ppm

If this is not done, there will continue to be ZERO reason to ever take WRs over Spears, or even Vypers.

-

Just about every main line SM unit needs a point reduction.

From the 2-3 armies I have 8th experience with:

Death Guard

Terminators need a price reduction of roughly 8 points, 3rd wound would be nice

Terminator weapon options (looking at you combi weapons) need a drastic price drop

Land Raider points need to be halved.

Rhino halved as well

DeathShroud need a t1 closer deepstrike, or a points decrease still

Foetid Bloat Drones melee weapon (probe thing) should be free

Typhus down a few points

BLood Angels:

Cheaper terminators, cheaper land raider


Adeptus Custodes:

The FW stuff is a bit overpriced for all the random shots and damage

Allarus come down in points a bit

Bikes should be more expensive, or the captain at least like said above

First off, I would increase the cost of ALL units by 20%. Doing this would allow GW to keep the points cost of tournaments and such at 2000 points, allow more space to fine-tune the "inbetween" spaces of units (with a 20% points increase, a 1 point difference between a Guardsman and a Conscript becomes less of a difference). The constant dropping of points costs across the game has started to show the strain that the system is under. Basic Tactical marines used to cost 15 points per model, with no grenades or pistols. The same model now goes for 13 points per model, and comes with all the trimmings.

Once all models cost more, then I would start trimming the cost of some units, and increasing the cost of others. I'm most familiar with my Heretic Astartes, so here's my thoughts on them:

#1 - Morty needs to cost more; Yes, he can die swiftly in the right circumstance, but he will literally win the game by himself if he isn't taken out. Plus, he's got synergies out the wazoo with all the other Heretic Astartes books, and the Daemons books.

#2 - Make Cult troops cost less; make it that if you take the God's number of model sin the squad, the models cost less per unit. It's often better for these units to either be large size for stratagem/buff abilities, or small size for resistance to morale, or just not be taken at all. A points discount when you take the Favoured Number of the god would be thematic, and make these units cost a more appropriate amount.

#3 - Daemon Princes should cost a little more, but only when they have wings; There's a huge difference in their effectiveness between having wings and not having wings. Make that difference in points wider.

#4 - Heldrakes should cost less; They have a single gun, few attacks, and don't even get the "-1 to being hit" that every other flyer has. Why the heck do they cost so much?

#5 - Chaos Terminators should cost less'; As should all Terminators. Of course, doesn't need to be much less, because as with every model with a 2+ save, it can quickly go from underpowered to overpowered quickly. If you lack any AP/multi-damage weapons, Terminators still are hard as rocks.

Everything else... could use some tweaks (Raptors/Warp Talons/Bikers/Land Raider, etc.), but these 5 are the ones that stand out for me.

Yeah, in order of priority for me, what I'd like to see out of CA:

-Space Marine mini-rework. Pretty much across-the-board we need to see points retooling, for everybody. Chaos Marines, DG, Tsons, SM, BA, DA, DW, and GK. I'd even go so far as to release new datasheets for common shared vehicles (Drop pods, Rhinos, vindys, preds, Land Raiders) that have been a major stain on every marine codex to come out. Pretty much everything that's been good out of the codexes that have had decent competitive showings (Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Chaos Marines, Death Guard and Tsons) has relied on totally bypassing the shared units that are total crap and if we want overall faction parity, we have to bring the power armored stuff up. Priority #1 for CA above all else.

Priority 2: Bring the worst offenders down a peg.

Units like

-Guard infantry bodies +1pt
-Basilisks, mortars, LR battlecannons, Baneblade weapons of various types
-Kabalite bodies +1pt
-Venoms, Raiders, Ravagers, Disintegrators
-Shining spears, Dark Reapers, Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks
-Nurgle daemon stuff, daemon princes, Ahriman

Priority 3: beta rules to approach systemic imbalances

Priority 1 and 2 are first because 2 is easy money, comparatively the easiest balance lever GW has is unit level point adjustment, and priority 1 is getting stupidly glaring and needs a blanket fix. If Games Workshop is unwilling to fix marines on an individual basis because that would be "unfair" to have say, blood angels and onward having functional shared units/chapter tactics etc...well then you've gotta fix it all at once.

Priority 3 gets tricky. You want to fix stuff like soup CP generation, issues with the cover system, and issues with turn 1 being this massive priority, but it's equally as easy to screw over armies that aren't overly powerful with hamfisted blanket rules.