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So I tend to see a decent amount of people always groaning about IoM or chaos getting a small subfaction as allies and how xenos don't have any.

But what is there?

I'll say upfront that I'm not much of a lore buff but what I do know is that(or at least as far as I know) Tau and eldar are the only ones that could really have allies.

As far as Tau go in my opinion it would be a waste of time to have "allies" when they could simply be in the codex like kroot.

Tyranids? Genestealer cults? These guys don't play well with others. Plus the cult pretty much is a way to ally in guard with big monsters

Necrons? Other dynasties? Kinda pointless, fun for a narrative game

Orks? Bigger orks? Again why bother? Just have them in said codex

Finally eldar. CWE, DE and harlequins can already ally together either separately or as ynnari. The only opportunities I know of would be the corsairs and the exodites both of which I would say justify their own book and could then be allies.

So are there big groups that are hiding in books that could potentially be a large enough faction to branch off for their core army?

You realize right those arguments could have been leveled at Imperium? "Those are humans. Let's just have them in one book".

If GW had invested even half the same style to orks say as Imperium we would have different codexes for clans with unique clan specific units, grot codex with wider unit choices etc...

Xenos lack allies because GW has deliberately written them so. Not because they have to be.

Necrons potential allies: cult of the Dragon admech
Tau: will need more patching up with either a kroot codex, possibly a mercenaries book including rogue trader stuff
Orks: above mercenary book would fit, otherwise break them down by clan for more diversity
Nids: contrary to your above post I fail to see why they can't work together?
Eldar: are ok with 4 lists already

You should pay points for opportunity to ally like you pay points for auras etc. There is no differences if units are in one codex or different codexes. Imperial soup is one army. Taking only space marines is like taking only portion from necron codex. Therefore if you look how competitive army is you look example all imperial codexes against necron codex, not space marines against necrons.

Necrons could have aliens uplifted by their Triarch Praetorians(who figured that at least saving Necron culture would be good enough) as forced slaves or willing servants. Maybe Praetorians needed something to bolster their ranks during the 60 million years other Necrons slept.

Nids can use brainbugs to control others. Alien genestealer cults?

Dudeface wrote:
Necrons potential allies: cult of the Dragon admech
Tau: will need more patching up with either a kroot codex, possibly a mercenaries book including rogue trader stuff
Orks: above mercenary book would fit, otherwise break them down by clan for more diversity
Nids: contrary to your above post I fail to see why they can't work together?
Eldar: are ok with 4 lists already

the admech dragon cult would not nesscarily be allied with the 'crons. In fact if the worship the Dragon C'tan is stands to reason they would be in direct opposition to the modern Necrons.
And random mercenaries eh.. I dislike, I'd rather see Tau given a codex Kroot, Codex Vepid, Codex: Demiurg etc.
Orks hiring humie mercenaries is just rediculas. I mean seriously "wut? ask dem humies ta fight fer us? Ha! Dats a good one!" I'd rather see a dedicated Ork Freebooters Codex.

'niods IIRC can already TAKE genestealer cults as allies.

Maybe Orks could hire space trolls as mercs, since trolls have been a part of the O&G army in Fantasy and belong in the same Grand Alliance in AoS.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Maybe Orks could hire space trolls as mercs, since trolls have been a part of the O&G army in Fantasy and belong in the same Grand Alliance in AoS.

expanmding Orkoid races a bit seems one good idea, no reason they should all be the same

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I tend to see a decent amount of people always groaning about IoM or chaos getting a small subfaction as allies and how xenos don't have any.

But what is there?

Worth keeping in mind that more than a few allied books are just units removed/spun off from a faction so GW can sell more books. Deathwatch for instance are fancy sternguard, the inquisition is in pieces all over the place, talons of the emperor are fragmented, grey knights should have never wound up where they are, etc. Even knights didn't really need to be a separate faction from the admech with the way allies work in 8th.


Tau - remove kroot from the tau. Make a kroot book. Potentially demiurge.
Necrons - remove wraith, scarabs, etc from the book. Make a canoptek book (forgeworld did a variant of this). Potentially admech.
Orks - remove bikes, buggies, etc from the book. Make a speed freaks book. (though historically the orks to have a few interesting allied options including ferals, mercenaries, and khorn worshippers, and are probably the only xenos faction that could warrant a full clan breakdown chapter-book style unless GW went all in with craftworld variations)
Nids - genestealer cults and guard via the cults

For orks snakebites would be a good spin off codex. Have the more feral orks and introduce young squiggoths as cavalry, larger ones as tanks, orkeosaurus as lords of war. Have units of squigs as well and that should be more than enough for a codex. A grot codex could also work but I think snakebites with a bunch of squigs and squiggoths would sell better.

Tau would just need one or more of their allies from the fluff to be given units. Necrons could have a splinter group that worship the c'tan but they wouldn't exactly be allies with the existing necrons fluff wise. Eldar could flesh out the ynnari, corsairs or add the exodites. Tyranids could have a codex based on feral tyranids or the forgotten fleets and could bring in things like the catachan devils, krakens, etc.

It'll ultimately all come down to how good the projections for sales are though.

With Dark Eldar, I'd have been happy with GW giving back even some of the stuff they've spent the last two codexes stripping out.

We've lost 5 Special Characters, 2-3 normal HQs, all mobility options for our HQs etc.

In place of allies, I'd settle for them putting that stuff back in. Maybe then our HQ section wouldn't be such an anaemic turd.

Orks have a long history of allying with Imperial Guard, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines and the Inquisition on various occasions.

Usually in exchange for scrap, weapons, slaves, taking out rivaling warbands - or the promise of a good fight.

The main reasons why this isn't in the game is because it would be utterly toxic to game balance if you could mix orks with all the other armies.

Oh, something else - I'd love to actually have Corsairs back.

They were one of the most fun armies in 7th and then FW basically axed them entirely.

GW have deliberately created an environment in 8th where allies are a thing only for some factions. But go back tot he allies matrix of previous editions can you had Orks being able to ally with chaos.

They don't want the xenos factions allying with anyone. The ally system boosts sales for their newer kits.

 Nithaniel wrote:
GW have deliberately created an environment in 8th where allies are a thing only for some factions. But go back tot he allies matrix of previous editions can you had Orks being able to ally with chaos.

They don't want the xenos factions allying with anyone. The ally system boosts sales for their newer kits.

well back in 6th edition the allies matrix made no sense, where you had space marines unable to ally with some IoM armies but able to ally with Tau

The thing is nearly any wargame that tries to impose an allies mechanic after launch that is based on the games lore tends to FAIL.

First up because its after the game has launched and run the allies concept isn't built into the core balance nor army design. This means that its perfectly possible to have ally matchups which can not only fix gaps in armies but make overpowered allied groups that have a power level way above the standard. In addition it can also result in a lot of waste whereby yes you can have allies but they don't actually bring anything to the table that your faction can't do already

Secondly there is faction identity - allies can run the risk of souping so many factions together that you end up losing the identity and theme of a faction to a soup of choices. The risk here is that many armies are sold on their lore and visual appeal; but if in the game you have to mix them up that can be lost.

Thirdly you can get what Warhammer has which is factions which have a bloat of allies and factions which have a lack; heck before Genestealer Cults the Tyranids had no allies at all and yet they had nothing within their faction to compensate for the increased power of enemy factions using allied forces




Also GW hasn't so much as made Space marines special as the market has also made Space marines an insane selling faction that outsells everything else by a large margin. Tyranids and other Xenos just don't sell the same volume so there's less reason for GW to put more and more money into them.



Personally I'd take out the lore based allies table and have allies as an optional rule set that simply provides a structure for allying together any two or more factions into the same battle side. Then let clubs, players and tournaments decide if they want to use allies or not. Let the players do their own ally lore if they want.

Then if GW wanted they could introduce a few allied forces - forces small enough that they can't stand on their own and are designed to be allied into other armies.



Honestly I think Warmachine/Hordes did allies right; they kept each faction on its own but gave you optional rules for taking two battleforces at once. Then they added mercenary factions for both games which were designed to compliment other factions or to have their own force (with limits on which mercenaries could join which factions).

Tau have plenty of "human helpers" who have joined the tau. Whole planets have joined without a shot fired. They would have at the very least Imperial guard and admech allies, possibly even imperial knights if the planet had knights.

Orks have plenty in the lore about working as mercs. Sometimes they will see a fight, decide one side is weaker and join that side just to make it a good scrape. They also have taken human worlds and would have imperial guard allies (either servants, contracted to fight with, or just decided to fight with them and the imperial generals see them fighting the enemy so stop from firing on them until the battle is over) orks also would likely fight along many chaos and renegade chapters just for the promise of a good braawl. Even the Eldar would hire the orks who would jump for joy at the prospect of shiny elf loot.

as for Necrons, the easy answer is blood angels, though obviously that was just awful fluff. I would say they should be able to ally imperial knights and admec (cult of the dragon) give them what they need on the table and has some lore backup and could easily be cemented in a book on cult of the dragon realizing it is a cthan and seeking out the necrons to unlock secrets.

Eldar fights alongside the imperium all the time too, they just don't really trust them, but when they show up flinging shurikens at a chaos incursion or durring an ork waaagh the help is welcomed.

tneva82 wrote:
You realize right those arguments could have been leveled at Imperium? "Those are humans. Let's just have them in one book".

If GW had invested even half the same style to orks say as Imperium we would have different codexes for clans with unique clan specific units, grot codex with wider unit choices etc...

Xenos lack allies because GW has deliberately written them so. Not because they have to be.

That's a little disingenuous. Saying there aren't many options for Xenos because GW simply doesn't make them. You also have to factor in that GW doesn't make as many because Xenos don't sell anywhere near as well as Imperium.

Sure, it's a two way street. But you do have to consider both directions.

I mean, if the lore gives us flying rodent gak things like Blood Angels allying in with Khorne, there's really no reason that other wackadoo combos cant work on the tabletop.

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You realize right those arguments could have been leveled at Imperium? "Those are humans. Let's just have them in one book".

If GW had invested even half the same style to orks say as Imperium we would have different codexes for clans with unique clan specific units, grot codex with wider unit choices etc...

Xenos lack allies because GW has deliberately written them so. Not because they have to be.

That's a little disingenuous. Saying there aren't many options for Xenos because GW simply doesn't make them. You also have to factor in that GW doesn't make as many because Xenos don't sell anywhere near as well as Imperium.

Sure, it's a two way street. But you do have to consider both directions.

Did I say otherwise? I'm pointing out there's no actual reason they CAN'T have allies if GW would do it. All those arguments could have leveled at the Imperium yet see where it led. Tons of allies for Imperium.

It's what GW wants. Not any core reason that makes tons of allies for xenos impossibility. It's all about what GW wants to do. Nothing in regarding "allies don't make sense for xenos" or "there aren't logical allies for xenos" like the OP claimed.

tneva82 wrote:

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You realize right those arguments could have been leveled at Imperium? "Those are humans. Let's just have them in one book".

If GW had invested even half the same style to orks say as Imperium we would have different codexes for clans with unique clan specific units, grot codex with wider unit choices etc...

Xenos lack allies because GW has deliberately written them so. Not because they have to be.

That's a little disingenuous. Saying there aren't many options for Xenos because GW simply doesn't make them. You also have to factor in that GW doesn't make as many because Xenos don't sell anywhere near as well as Imperium.

Sure, it's a two way street. But you do have to consider both directions.

Did I say otherwise? I'm pointing out there's no actual reason they CAN'T have allies if GW would do it. All those arguments could have leveled at the Imperium yet see where it led. Tons of allies for Imperium.

It's what GW wants. Not any core reason that makes tons of allies for xenos impossibility. It's all about what GW wants to do. Nothing in regarding "allies don't make sense for xenos" or "there aren't logical allies for xenos" like the OP claimed.

Fair enough. I guess I misinterpreted your point sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
I mean, if the lore gives us flying rodent gak things like Blood Angels allying in with Khorne, there's really no reason that other wackadoo combos cant work on the tabletop.

That's a very good point. In the fluff we see all kinds of alliances. Necrons with Astra Militarum in the 13th Black Crusade for instance. Even factions that seemingly couldn't ally with anyone (Nids), you can if you really try think of a narrative reason. Perhaps a Chaos alligned scientist managed to implant a brood of Tyranids with tech that blocks their Hive Mind connection and allows them to be broadly controlled. I don't know if that is literally impossible in the setting, but you get the point. Forge the narrative.

Of course, that's what narrative games are for. Where anyone can ally anyone.

The issue with THAT stance is once you start saying Narrative is for anything goes story based games and matched is for 'balanced' (as far as a game like this can be), why allow all Imperium to ally in matched play? Why not say that too is a Narrative thing, for matched games stick to your codex.

Stux wrote:

The issue with THAT stance is once you start saying Narrative is for anything goes story based games and matched is for 'balanced' (as far as a game like this can be), why allow all Imperium to ally in matched play? Why not say that too is a Narrative thing, for matched games stick to your codex.

See I wouldn't mind touching on this. So in the case of knight houses/armies if you had to build a competitive knight list with only the knight codex it would be rather difficult. But let's just say GW brings down the hammer on soup altogether, no allies at tournaments, it's just a Narrative thing. Makes it easier for them to balance blah blah blah. But what I am getting at is for "balance" you'd need to probably either copy data sheets from other codexes(Admech skitarii or guardsman) for filler or take the base guardsmen profile and call it "house infantry" or something unique to shore up the codexes.

This could potentially just be redundant in the case of "pure" knight armies but in the case of "blood angels" lists that are mostly made up of guard it would really shake things up.


Also as far as my OP goes, lore wise it seems there's all kinds of team ups in 40k. But as someone has pointed out, mechanically it would be a bad idea for say orks to team up with guard.

I think Knights are a special case here. Although they do have their own codex, I still don't feel they are really supposed to function properly on their own. So in that sense I feel like assassins and inquisition are a closer comparison. There would need to be a rule for these factions that still allowed them to fight allongside a normal Imperium army.

But yes, taking Guard away from Blood Angels would be massive.

Just in lore Nids and Necrons have parasitic things that can take over the minds they infect which would be an easy justification to ally with most armies. IG wouldn't be perfect representations of LatD, Gue'vessa, or diggers but they aren't a stretch for "counts as" allies. It's also not a stretch for them to by manipulated or enslaved by Eldar.

Also, if you can't come up with ideas for factions for various Xenos armies that could fit their own codex, you aren't trying hard.

Tau are easy and it would settle things for players who just want Tau, those that want a lot of auxiliaries, and those who just liked the old Kroot Merc list.

Plenty of people have thrown out Ork ideas so I'll just add Hobgoblins as a suggestion.

Nid Hive fleets that operate very differently from the norm, like the Zoats' fleet wouldn't be that hard to develop. What if you had a fleet that worked like ants instead of locusts? Rather than strip planets they change them into giant biofuel factories and are more focused on defensive units than offensive units.

Necrons could gain flayed one armies, the Silent King could return with actual Necrontyr, or maybe have a secret society dedicated to unlocking the secrets of the Old Ones still and use them to reintroduce Pariahs.

The Eldar don't really need much help, but I think I'd rather see an actual faction for them rather than just some special characters. If you want something new, maybe the Eldar factions can get together to spring Isha from Nurgle. At the very least you could use her return as a catalyst to turn the Exodites from survivalists to crusaders for their angry mama.

Then there is always the potential for entirely new Xenos armies too. Personally, I like the Khrave for one. They have their own ships, have been fighting with humanity since at least the GC, their physical description is vague so nothing is really locked in, and they eat brains.

The T'au Empire is begging for allied codexes...
1. Codex: T'au Auxilliaries
- basically limited IG with T'au upgrade sprues, similar to the GSC releases
2. Codex: Kroot Mercenaries
- Current Kroot kit + plastic monoposed Shaper HQ, elite/fast attack dual kit, 5x Kroot Hound kit, 3x Krootox kit, Gnarloc kit as the heavy/big kit.
3. Mini Codex: Vespid Hives
- plastic HQ, plastic dual kit troops/fast attack, plastic big big
4. Codex: Demiurg
- Just repackage the Kharadrons? lol

Orks are the same...
Codex: Orks is your basic Ork book
Codex: Speed Freaks
Codex: Ork Mercenaries - limited ability to ally with almost anyone.
Codex: Mek Enklaves
Mini Codex: Grot Rebels

Nids are probably a little harder, but they still some options...
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Genestealer Cults (Imperial Flavor)
Mini Codex: Tyrannik Orks (upgrade bits to turn Orks into Genestealers hybrids)
Codex: [Specific Hive Fleet]
Codex: Ymgarl - explore a tentacle faced hive splinter that is disconnected from the overall hive mind somehow.

What do you guys think about really ALLOWING Xenos to take allies? Even limited like, no Necrons and Tyranids (as they kill everything that has a soul but necrons want to have humanoid bodies back), no space wolves and TSons etc.

This would lead to OP combos but therefor 8th is a „living ruleset“ as GW has stated.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
What do you guys think about really ALLOWING Xenos to take allies? Even limited like, no Necrons and Tyranids (as they kill everything that has a soul but necrons want to have humanoid bodies back), no space wolves and TSons etc.

This would lead to OP combos but therefor 8th is a „living ruleset“ as GW has stated.

As if the powergamers aren't already exploiting the existing OP combos. If some one wants to min-max they will - 40k will never be balanced enough to prevent those looking for OP combos from finding them.

I say bring back and refine that tiered alliance system from 6th and 7th eds. Let everyone get some chance to get anything, but get hindered more and more further you get from your home turf.

Orks should probably be able to take some Ogryn units as allies somehow, they used to be able to.

"Necrons? Other dynasties? Kinda pointless, fun for a narrative game "

Oh, you mean like Space Marines and Space Marines:Red?

There are 10 million colors of Space Marines that all get their own books, and get to ally together - even though conceptually they're all the same unit - Space Marine.

Good one.

Stux wrote:
I think Knights are a special case here. Although they do have their own codex, I still don't feel they are really supposed to function properly on their own. So in that sense I feel like assassins and inquisition are a closer comparison. There would need to be a rule for these factions that still allowed them to fight allongside a normal Imperium army.

But yes, taking Guard away from Blood Angels would be massive.

I feel there are a few armies like this, perhaps rather then ban ALL armies, GW could diffrentiate between "Primus and Secondus" armies. IOW armies intended as a main body, and armies (often new ones that are slightly under developed) that are essentially intended, at least at the time, to be deployed with an ally.

examples of armies that might be "Secondus" are Grey Knights, Custodes, Harliquins, and Imperial Knights. Although of that some of the ones I listed might be more then capable of standing on their own