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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Note: This is a WIP first post. This is solely my own judgement on the units-please please PLEASE contribute your own thoughts, and I'll update the post!

Army Special Rules

Death To The False Emperor-Gain extra attacks on a 6+ in the Fight phase when fighting Imperium units. Handy, but nothing to build around, generally.

Daemonic Ritual-Summoning! It sucks, generally.

Despoilers Of The Galaxy-Objective Secured. On Troops only.

Units Overview

HQs

Spoiler:
Abaddon The Despoiler A+
He's the reason to run Black Legion. The ONLY way to get full rerolls to hit in a CSM army (at least in any decent area), as well as auto-pass morale in a 12" bubble. He's the core of our most competitive builds, usually with Cultists.

Fabius Bile C
He's okay. Nothing special. His main shtick is that he can enhance infantry units, giving them +1 Strength (okay), Toughness (great!) or Attack (okay). But you also have to roll a d6 for every model, and the unit takes a mortal wound for each 6. He's not AWFUL... But he's not good.

Also, he has a special rule where he doesn't break Legion bonuses, despite not being a Legion Character himself.

Kharn The Betrayer A
Kharn is a big ol' beatstick, and damn good at it for cheap. A sneaky way of using him is to run him next to big Daemon Engines or tanks, since he gives full rerolls to hit (just like Abaddon) in a 1" bubble (not like Abaddon). Good countercharge threat and babysitter for big boys, as well as useful for running up the field and murdering.

Lucius The Eternal D
A beatstick Emperor's Children Lord. A mediocre beatstick at that. Hard pass.

Cypher F (B Without Battle Brothers)
Cypher has some nice pistols, and makes a great Warlord. He does not count as being slain on a 2+, so he's great for denying your enemy points.

But, with the Battle Brothers rule... He can only be taken in a Vanguard of Fallen or an Aux detachment. So he sucks.

Huron Blackheart B
A Psychic Lord for Red Corsairs. He has a Heavy Flamer and can, if his Familiar is alive, cast two powers instead of one. He's okay. Nothing special. Note that the familiar can take a wound for him, so if he gets Lascannon sniped, put the first on the familiar so the d6 is wasted.

Daemon Prince A
A MASSIVE beatstick, coming in at 8 wounds for Character protection for days. Talons are almost always your best bet. Gives reroll 1s to friendly <LEGION> units that are nearby, so does have some minor buffing. Wings used to be mandatory, but with Fly nerfs, an 8" move walking Prince isn't an awful way to save points.

Chaos Lord B
Gives reroll 1s to friendly <LEGION> units nearby. Surprisingly killy in CC with the right gear, but... Mostly used for rerolling 1s.

Can take a jump pack for deep striking and better move.

Terminator Lord B-
Slightly more durable Lord, but you have Character protection. Still a good choice, but not AS good. Can also deepstrike.

Sorcerer B+
A two-cast, one-deny psyker. Oftentimes essential to non-Khorne armies, since we've got some great powers. Can take a jump pack.

terminator Sorcerer B
See Terminator Lord. Helps a Sorcerer slightly more, since going from 4 to 5 wounds is good, but overall... Generally not worth it.

Dark Apostle C+
Our Chaplains. Full rerolls to-hit in the Fight phase for <LEGION> units nearby, and grants his Leadership 9 to nearby <LEGION> units. Not terrible with MSU Cultists, but generally not worth it.

Exalted Champion B
Full rerolls to-wound in the Fight Phase for <LEGION> units nearby. Pretty great, for a melee force.

Warpsmith C+
Can heal friendly vehicles or deal mortal wounds to enemy vehicles. Not very good, but very cheap.


Troops

Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines B
Can go up to squad size of 20.Can double up on specials/heavies at 10 dudes. Can go CC focused, exchanging Boltgun for Chainsword. Overall, suffers from the issues all Marines suffer from, but okay if you work around them.

Cultists A
Our workhorse troop. Goes from 10 dudes all the way to 40. (If you run 40 man blobs, HAVE A WAY TO BYPASS MORALE. Otherwise, you dead.) Can go CC focused with Pistol and CC Weapon, or shooting with an Autogun. Absolutely stellar option to buff. Prescience, Abaddon, and Veterans of the Long War on a 40-man Cultist squad within 12" of something is 80 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling, wounding at +1. That's nearly 8 wounds to your average KNIGHT.

Cultists, if you want them to do work, have to be built around. But they absolutely rock your socks off if you do.


Elites

Spoiler:
Fallen F
Same issues as Cypher. Can take a lot of special weapons (Plasma), but not worth slotting in usually. They can reroll 1s when hitting in shooting if they didn't move, so that's nice.

Berzerkers A-
They kill, they maim, they don't actually burn. With the ability to fight twice every round at S5 base (with a S+1 AP-1 Chainaxe, if you want) they buratlize whatever they come into contact with. Good combos include giving the Champ a powerfist, for 6 S10 attacks a round (8, if you're World Eaters and charged).

They become troops in a World Eaters detachment.

Rubric Marines C
They have AP-2 bolters, a 5+ invuln, and +1 to saves against D1. That's it. Not worth it.

Plague Marines C
They're T5 and have a 5+ FNP. They have a lot of options, and none of them are worth it in this Dex. Pass.

Noise Marines C+
They have a lot of ignores cover dakka. What's really nice is that, when they die, they can shoot, including throwing a grenade! Run them near a character, get them killed in CC, and toss a bunch of Krak grenades at someone shiny, since Character protection only works in the shooting phase. They are troops in an Emperor's Children detachment.

Chosen B
Cheap as chips now, barely more expensive than regular Marines. With +2 attacks (you did take the free chainsword, right?) and +1 Leadership, as well as more options, definitely worth taking if you like Marines.

Mutilators D
A slow melee unit with no way to increase their charge abilities. Deepstrike, but 9" charges are not reliable. They're straight up worse than Obliterators-S5 base isntead of 6, same AP, same Damage, and less shots. Since they come in units of 3, you can't even take solo dudes and drop them as a distraction. Hard pass.

Terminators B
Decent amount of dakka on a deepstriking, somewhat durable platform for not too expensive.

Possessed C
7" move on a melee unit is not enough. They're S5 AP-2, true, but with only d3 attacks... Berzerkers do better. Always Berzerkers.

The only advantage they have over Zerkers is 2 Wounds and the ability to be more than Khorne, but it's not enough, in my opinion. They are also Daemons, so benefit a LOT from an allied Daemons detachment.

Helbrute B+
Very cheap now! Decent in CC with the right gear, decent at shooting with other gear, can be kitted to be okay enough at both. Power Scourge and a ranged weapon of choice is my preferred loadout.


Fast Attack

Spoiler:
Bikers C+
Fast, moderately durable. Lots of bolter shots. A good combo is Renegades with flamers-advance, d6 auto hits, and charge. But... Generally not worth it.

Chaos Spawn B-
7" move on a fast attack? Okay...

T5, W4, and a decent amount of respectable attacks. Spawn do work, for a reasonable price.

Raptors D+
Plasma delivery system, and pretty much nothing more. T4 3+ W1 is not durable, and they're not good in close combat. Drop 'em, melt something with plasma, and watch them die. Maybe try to tie something valuable up, if you're lucky.

Warp Talons C
2 attacks with their dual claws, over the Raptors 1. Also have Lightning Claws and a 5+ invuln. But, most importantly, they deny overwatch on the turn they deepstrike. So, charge EVERYTHING YOU CAN when you deepstrike, and hopefully tie something nice up. Can be made Khorne and, if you have a Khorne Daemons detachment, benefit from the Locus to reroll failed charges.


Heavy Supports

Spoiler:
Havocs B+
Devastators, but they can take Special weapons too. Effective at what they do. Pair with a Lord or someone.

Obliterators A
Effectively 3 wound terminators with S6+d3, AP-d3, Dd3 (rolled once for the whole squad) guns at Assault 4. They are a phenomenal unit.

Best as Slaanesh, to shoot twice.

Chaos Land Raider D-
It stops working the moment someone touches it in close combat. Carries a lot of stuff, but Rhinos do its job better.

Defiler B-
Cheap enough to be quite good. Scary enough in CC that it can't be ignored, and at T7 W14 3+ 5++... It ain't half bad!

Forgefiend D
Outperformed by other heavy support options.Just plain not worth it. It is a daemon, which can be nice, but... Eh...

Maulerfiend C+
Fast and reasonably tough, and dead killy in CC. Generally better with Lasher Tendrils, since a 4+ WS/BS makes weight of attacks worth more than anything else.

Chaos Vindicator D
Demolisher cannons aren't good.

Chaos Predator C
Like a Forgefiend, but better. Still not super good.


Dedicated Transport and Flyer

Spoiler:
Rhino B
Great for transporting, and eating Overwatch! Useless for almost anything else, though it does have an ok amount of dakka with a Havoc Launcher. But it's cheap, so fill it up with a nasty payload and get killing!

Heldrake C
Standard Daemon Engine statline, but just... Not very good. With only 4 attacks MAX, even at WS 3+ on the top bracket, it won't do any killing in close combat. And it doesn't have near enough shots to do anything in shooting. Only main use is tying stuff up turn one, which it CAN DO with its 30" move.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 03:10:54


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Chaos spawn still B? Even when they are only 25ppm now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Chaos Marines should be an F for sure. They're pointless especially after the Chosen point decrease.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Daemon Princes A+? Not sure about that. They’re viable, but their DG, TS and CD variants are significantly stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure that Mutilators are two whole tiers above Fallen. Reasoning:

- I don’t think an awkward faction makes a self-rerolling plasma squad F tier

- Mutilators are an M4 melee unit, and the price cut only turns them from a chocolate teapot into a cheap chocolate teapot. If you can deploy Nurglings around a winner-takes-all objectives, they’re not terrible to drop on it as a hard line. But what other niches do they have?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 19:09:36


   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

As a word of stylistic advice, I would increase the breadth of your Spoiler tags. Basically encompass your review of all HQs under one big spoiler tag.

The way you have it now, your actual analysis isn't long enough to justify the Spoiler tag in any meaningful way. It actually may take up more space with the spoiler tags than it would if you just left the text in. I think Spoiler Tags are important in these types of guides so that players can navigate them effectively and quickly get to the section they are interested in. However your useage is not really accomplishing that goal in a meaningful way. That said its an easy fix, just put all your HQ analysis under a single spoiler. That way you seal off large chuncks of space and someone can quickly switch over to the Troops if they want to review those instead.

I would also like to see a bit more detail and reasoning. I think your guide could really do with a (probably spoilered) reasoning for how you are assigning ratings. As well as more unit analysis. At this early stage of your tactica, you haven't really taught me how to build an army. For example, this is what you have to say about Terminators

JNAProductions wrote: "Decent amount of dakka on a deepstriking, somewhat durable platform for not too expensive."

Okay, but why though?

- How should I deploy them? Are they only useful deep striking?
- In what ways are they somewhat durable? What are they durable against?
- What counters terminators? What playstyles do you need to watch out for if you are using termies?

These are the questions that people are looking for when they open a tactica. If you are not providing guidance on this, that is a flaw with your list. Indeed, look at 1d4chan, while I don't agree with everything they write, their tactics article does a pretty good job of laying out the basic strengths of each unit in significantly more detail than is offered here.

EXCERPT from 1d4chan on Terminators
Spoiler:
Chaos Terminators - Now with 2 wounds in addition to their 2+/5++, 2 attacks, and much-improved deep strike ability. Each one of them can take a combi-weapon and power weapon, so you can adapt them for your killy needs, and one in every five can take a reaper autocannon or a heavy flamer. An important thing to note is that unlike the Loyalists, we can take power weapons and don't have to pay through the nose for Power Fists. They now come in a minimum squad size of five, which combined with the greatly increased prices of combi-weapons means that the old three-man Termicide is probably a thing of the past.
A sorcerer (with either a jump pack or terminator armour) dropping in alongside them is an excellent combination as Warptime will almost guarantee (you have to roll a 4 or more) that the terminators will make the charge. No longer possible, unfortunately. However, it does mean that Termies will now be viable for a variety of strategies beyond Alphastrike.
Taking Khornate Terminators and giving them an Icon of Wrath does still make Alphastrike an option. Casting Prescience will allow you to fire both parts of a combi-weapon and/or hit with power/chain fists without penalty! Sadly, Termie Champions can no longer dual wield melee weapons(Lightning Claws excluded), so say goodbye to the Fist/Claw build (though he does have 3A). No worries the new Codex brought this. Take 10 Terminators with combi-plasma, and power swords. Mark them with SLAANESH and teleport them in and activate Endless Cacophony for 40 shots S7/AP-3/D1 shots. Take a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince for re-rolling 1's to hit, and Sorcerer or Daemon Prince for +1 to hit with Prescience. For maximum cheese use Veteran of the Long War for +1 to wound and overcharge the plasma for 40 shots S8/AP-3/D2!
Alternate take: While terminators are obviously quite good this edition, they can eat up points fast. A 10 model unit with just combi-plasma will come close to 500 points. It's probably best to keep them focused on one role and diversify the rest of your army so you can get the maximum number of command points.
ALTERNATIVE alternative take: Do not be fooled by their 2+ and 2 wounds; these guys can die SUPER fast. Plasma EQ weapons are guaranteed to send them packing back to the Eye of Terror. For this reason, they now truly work the way they are supposed to in fluff: DROP DOWN AND INSTANTLY MURDERIZE A SINGLE TARGET. Unless you want to spend an assload of points on 10 man combi-plas squads with Delightful Agonies, be VERY careful when you throw them down. Throw them in too early and your opponent will be both too heavily screened and have much of their remaining army to wipe them. Send them in too late and you'll have lost too much from your opponents killy units. Timing, positioning, and specialization is key. Unless you put them in a land Raider, in which case you can GO CRAZY, as the firepower from a Land Raider will both WRECK the various threats to your big dudes and bring can them MUCH closer than 9" to a desirable target.
Note: With the minimum squad size being five, if you want a Terminators/Lord party bus you can, per the new FAQ, field an understrength squad and only pay for four models. Nice. (only when taken as auxiliary detachment, meaning -1CP)

You can immediately see that far greater amount of detail they have gone into, and I feel like I have an idea of what I can expect out of termies by reading it. Taken with a grain of salt though, because from this passage it might appear that Terminators are not in fact the Hot Garbage that I believe they are. But I didn't write this, and if I were writing the guide I would probably spend a long time detailing just why temrinators are hot garbage in 8E. The point is not that I agree with 1d4chans tactica on terminators, just that I can tell that effort was put into analyzing this unit and its combos. I just don't get that level of depths from your guide, and why would I use your guide over 1d4chan if at this point all you are doing is providing even simpler analysis on individual units. At this point your list right now just seems like an overview of your opinions on different units without showing us why you feel that way.

I think the problem is you are doing a schtick in a market that is currently saturated. What you want to do when writing a tactica is create a vision of how the army should be played. Or several visions, because there are multiple successful versions. And explain to players how those armies play and the different choices that are available in that playstyle.

A World Eaters Zerker party bus list is going to play different from a Black Legion Las Cannon Gunline. Right? The support units you want in either style are going to be different? Yea? I mean yes, that is self evident- if you play the army and are familiar with how the units work and work together. But if you are building a tactica, you need to explain these things to people. The people looking to tactica are newcomers to the army who don't have a lot of experience building an army or knowing how it plays when it is on the table. Explaining how units work together is what players need, far more than they need a simple 1 sentence simplified overview of the individual units.

Second, this type of list is also increasingly out of place in the wonderful world of soup. Because competitive gaming is seldom played mono faction v mono faction (much to my personal dismay). So you need to identify allies, and units competition with allies. Let me give you an example.

Lets talk about Cultists. Yes, they are the best troop choice in the codex. But now they are 5ppm. At this point, we need to be comparing them to Renegade Militia (unless FW is banned for some reason, which is increasingly uncommon even in higher level tournaments). A renegade militia maintains its 4ppm price tag, and chaos can effectively run their own 32 man detachment for 5 CP that those dirty loyalists can do. Cultists still have their advantages, but it is worth considering their alternatives. I bring up cultists because your section on Cultists does do several things I was looking for. Notably a bit of insight into the strategy of actually deploying them. Despite being a bit to simplistic for my liking. You mention some of the buffs and what they do. What you are missing is things like using Tide of Traitors to place the squad into the perfect position, etc. You also don't talk about the downsides to those abilities, like draining a large number of CPs, and preventing those strategems from being used on units like Obliterators or Auto Cannon Havocs.

tl;dr go into more detail, really get into the nitty gritty and explain how the army works. Don't be afraid to talk about allies, and how allying say Slaanesh Daemons with the Cacophony spell is hilarious with a squad of Nurgle Night Lords Raptors. Talk about what allies offer the army, what the army offers its allies, etc. Really make those spoiler tags worth it by giving us lots of that sweet tender juicy insight.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/09 19:18:56


Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I like this concept. I'd be interested to see a section that details the list archetypes that are currently placing highly at tournaments along with a brief description of how they function.

--- 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 lindsay40k wrote:
Daemon Princes A+? Not sure about that. They’re viable, but their DG, TS and CD variants are significantly stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure that Mutilators are two whole tiers above Fallen. Reasoning:

- I don’t think an awkward faction makes a self-rerolling plasma squad F tier

- Mutilators are an M4 melee unit, and the price cut only turns them from a chocolate teapot into a cheap chocolate teapot. If you can deploy Nurglings around a winner-takes-all objectives, they’re not terrible to drop on it as a hard line. But what other niches do they have?

Fallen have absolutely no mobility, and now compete with Chosen who are the same exact price.

Mutilators are now only 105 points total. At this price tag it isn't a terrible investment to Deep Strike with such a small profile and try and make a charge. If they don't, they're actually durable for the price now (35 points for 3 wounds at 2+/5++).

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Tacticals rated too well, same with terminators and mutilators and possesssed
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

The only reason Possessed are seen as bad is because Berzerkers exist. Possessed actually synergize with different units. Sure, they aren't the crazy blender that Berzerkers are, but just because Berzerkers are amazing doesn't automatically mean that Possessed are trash.

Possessed are Daemons, and so can benefit from taking Chaos Daemon allies (the loci pretty much all work well with them, except for the Tzeentch one which is garbage anyway). Plus, the various God-aligned spells can increase their durability (-1 to hit for Nurgle, +1 invul save for Tzeentch, 5+ FnP from Slaanesh). In addition to all of that, they are infantry and so benefit from the various Legion traits if in a pure detachment (good ones are World Eaters, Renegades, and Emperor's Children). The main downfall for them is their higher cost when compared to Berzerkers, and their swingy damage output.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Okay, edited the spoilers. moving on to Heavy Support.

Should be basically done now, at least in brief.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 01:18:40


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Spawn of Chaos




 ZergSmasher wrote:
The only reason Possessed are seen as bad is because Berzerkers exist. Possessed actually synergize with different units. Sure, they aren't the crazy blender that Berzerkers are, but just because Berzerkers are amazing doesn't automatically mean that Possessed are trash.

Possessed are Daemons, and so can benefit from taking Chaos Daemon allies (the loci pretty much all work well with them, except for the Tzeentch one which is garbage anyway). Plus, the various God-aligned spells can increase their durability (-1 to hit for Nurgle, +1 invul save for Tzeentch, 5+ FnP from Slaanesh). In addition to all of that, they are infantry and so benefit from the various Legion traits if in a pure detachment (good ones are World Eaters, Renegades, and Emperor's Children). The main downfall for them is their higher cost when compared to Berzerkers, and their swingy damage output.


*cough* D3 attacks. Roll a . Spend 1CP and roll a again.


I would love to play a army out of real chaos space marines like possessed, multilators and oblitirators but their randomness sucks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 01:30:08


12000p
 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Obliterators are pretty good at least. Rule of three and deep strike nerf hurt pretty badly tho. I rolled 15 of them with a tzeentch daemon prince to reroll 1s for hits and wounds. Faceroll to victory.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Has there been any indication as to what formations, stratagems, and other goodies that chaos will gain access to with the Vigilus book?
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wow, after trying to create some lists. I really think Chaos has improved. People are moaning about how everyone’s lists decreased in points. But If you are willing to zoom in on those units with big point decreases. CSM has a heck of a lot of points to play with now.

Consider Hellbrutes. I believe 3 are almost auto take now. A missile launcher, reaper autocannon hellbrute is a super cheap 90 points. And this is for something which is super flexible, this 90 point hellbrute never degrades and get hit armor, infantry, anything. If the opponent spent his anti armor shooting at this, its 90 points. Go ahead, be my guest.

And we have fire frenzy! And we can stick a cheap chaos lord in the middle of 3 hellbrutes. 3 hellbrutes, two shooty, and a third with a hellbrute fist or scrouge with a chaos lord in the middle is a pretty awesome firebase. That’s a lot of shooting when you add in fire frenzy and the lord gives rerolls 1. Between the chaos lord melee and that one hellbrute with a scourge, you can’t just charge in some cheap stuff to tie this up. They can and will wreck even fairly substantial melee forces. And the whole set up is 300 plus point for 1 chaos lord and 3 hellbrutes. At most maybe 400. Its amazing. And this is in Elite slots. So now we have something in elite slots which are really really good as almost as shooty as our heavy support stuff. I mean, do the math, if I have 2 missile reaper autocannon hellbrutes and 1 missile, scourge brute. And I use fire frenzy every turn. That’s 4 missile launcher shots and 12 reaper autocannon shots every turn. That’s essentially the fire output of one missile launcher havoc squad and one and a half auto cannon havoc squads.

And then we come to our daemon engines. People keep saying everything is relative. But loyalists don’t have daemon engines right? A defiler with defiler scourge and reaper autocannon is an eye popping 142 points. This is on something that is 14 wounds with a 5++ save. Consider the forgefiend. People thought it was too expensive last time. Now, if you take a forgefiend with two hades autocannon and one ectoplasma cannon on its head, that’s … 160 points. You don’t even need to baby sit the thing with a chaos lord, just spam daemon forge every turn on it.

A heavy support “fire base” of one defiler (142 points) and 2 tri head forgefiends (160 points). Is just 462 points. And good luck not only can it shoot decently enough, and is resilient (5++ with infernal regen). The defiler packs a heck of a wallop. So, if you want to try and overcome this firebase by melee, again, be my guest! I am not even considering the scenario where we spam 3 defilers and 3 forgefiends and 3 hellbrutes.

And even if we went 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends and 3 hellbrutes for a heck of a lot of armor and shooting, we would still have tons of points left for troops and HQ. You want to spam 80 cultists with this, you have the points! You want to go full power armor with this, we can do that too. This really needs to be explored.

And you want to worry about some big ass Castellan? Then we will play objectives. I got tons of armor all cheap as chips floating around. That big cannon of his can at most kill one daemon engine a turn. In the mean time, the rest of my armor will be running rings around him and claiming all the objectives. And I can shoot back with a lot of my stuff too. So, bring it I say. So what if I can’t bring down a castellan in one turn. I can sure as heck beat a Castellan list via objectives. Actually, a triple defiler, forgefiend and hellbrute list may have enough fire power to take down a super heavy in two turns if you spam fire frenzy and daemonforge every turn. (I haven’t done the math).
I am really quite excited about CSM which I haven’t been for a very long time. It is true that other factions have seen drops too. But have they seen the kind of point drops that we have? Of course, if you insist on ignoring all these with huge point drops and focus only on cultists, then of course we would be grumbling. But just look at what we gained. For the first time, I am excited about fielding stuff like hellbrutes, forgefiends, and defilers.

And this is just based on a non spamming army. If we wanted to take spear head detachment, take different legions, we can have more than 3 hellbrutes and more than 6 daemon engines in the list. And this also doesn't even take into account Chaos soup lists. Imagine 3 hellbrutes, 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends combined with another deathguard spearhead of 2 hellbrutes and 3 plague burst crawlers. There is so much armor it will take forever even for a Castellan to go through all of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 04:00:25


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Are there any consensus units that work well against grotesques? Mathhammering across chaos factions its hard to find something that trades up against 6T 4++ and a 6FNP first turn on 4W. Even oblits on average will kill maybe 2 and most lists are running 30. 8points per wound 6T 4++ is hard to deal with, only moves 7 inches but with advance will be in charge range against most lists(?) by turn 3.

What have people been using? I think the most favorable mathhammer so far was looking at pink horrors as AP isn't really a concern but the numbers aren't stellar. Trying to find some units that can handle the copy and paste competitive IG IK soup, grotesque spam and tyranid that is basically the meta currently....
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Autocannons are the perfect weapon as they won't be paying for AP values they won't use.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Toronto

A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too:

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs.

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads.

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 06:49:43


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I honestly think there might be some merit at this point both to combiflamer chosen and/or plasma chosen delivered via LR or rhino could be a serious thing at this juncture.

Combiflamer chosen are what, 18 points? So a unit of 5 90 points) world eater chosen are delivering an average of (3.5x5= 16.5 + 10 on 4+ so 5) 21.5 strength 4 hits on the shot and then something like 21x.6666...roughly 14 str 4 hits in melee. So round up, 36 str 4 hits, kills 22 guardman, or 88 points.

I mean, I'm not saying it will break the meta or anything, but I don't think it's small potatoes either. Not a lot of stuff makes up its points killing guardsman. Same profile kills 12 marines as well or 3 termies.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 McGibs wrote:
A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too:


Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.


Part of what makes leviathans so good is the bulk of their firepower can be unloaded at 36-48" range while it sits safely behind a screen of infantry to prevent from getting charged and effectively completely removed from the game. The reductions to land raiders are certainly nice, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it outperforms leviathans. Once an Achilles gets into range of firing at anything worthwhile, it'd practically be touching the enemy screen

EDIT: Oops I was looking at the profile for the loyalist Achilles. Disregard the above. The 48" soulburner mortar is definitely interesting. Averages 2.67 mortal wounds effectively anywhere on the board every single turn without exposing itself. Roughly taking 6 turns to kill a 14w model. Still not sure it outperforms a leviathan for the points cost but it's certainly better than the loyalist one

I often run 2-3 double soulburner decimators for fun and while they seem scary on paper, I can't say I've ever been impressed with their damage output given how expensive they are. They are essentially very expensive targeted smites that can miss, on a platform that is relatively fragile and vulnerable to charges. The Achilles doesn't have the fragility problem, but it's also just not that much damage for a huge amount of points. Even with the points reduction, that's a massive premium for those 2.67 "anywhere" mortal wounds per turn.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 09:45:20


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Made in au
Furious Raptor




Sydney, Australia

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, after trying to create some lists. I really think Chaos has improved. People are moaning about how everyone’s lists decreased in points. But If you are willing to zoom in on those units with big point decreases. CSM has a heck of a lot of points to play with now.

Consider Hellbrutes.[...]


I've always backed my Helbrute (spoiler alert, I'm a very casual gamer these days, have not played tournaments since I dunno, 5th?) in my games against my necron friend. The first time he saw it we made it into combat and... well, let's just say that it didn't go well for him. So now every game my Helbrute is a wonderful distraction Carnifex that sadly usually ends up dying for the cause. Having them get CHEAPER is totally okay in my book, I'll strongly consider converting up three of them now to run as a Vanguard Detachment all on their own alongside a Battalion of CSMs or Daemons. The only thing I don't like is that they have the -1 to moving and firing heavy weapons, but I can understand it from Gee Dubs point of view - they needed to give the inexorable advance rule to the Death Guard Helbrutes to set them out, and to be fair, in the fluff, the Chaos Dreadnoughts have always been completely mad, running forward, confusing friend from foe and often shooting wildly at anyone within co-ee of them out of sheer blood rage. So yeah, they're probably not the most accurate of units when moving and firing.

I'm super keen to see what I can do with Helbrutes. I think there's a lot of potential there.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Still fairly new to 8th but what do people think of the Khornate Party Bus tactic? How easy is it to counter?

Basically you bring Khârn or a DA with an Exalted Champion in a Rhino/LR with eight Chainaxe Berserkers. Add power fists/swords on the characters too. You fight twice with rerollable hits and wounds, on top of the attacks from your characters. Just make sure you let the Berserkers go first if you’re bringing Khârn.


Ultra-Ultramarines are a great idea. 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Something you should learn is tri-pointing and do it when possible. It goes roughly like this:

a) declare one unit as target for charge. Have nearby another unit as well. Do NOT declare that unit as charge target
b) during charge movement either ensure you have 3 models near the unit that was not charged or at least that 2nd round you can pile in/consolidiate toward it.
c) goal is to end up with your movements so that at least one model from unit you did not declare charge is surrounded by 3 of your models like this.

.....B
.....E...
....B..B

As you did not declare charge you cannot attack that squad(it will attack you though) but he also cannot fall back out of combat(can't move through enemy models) thus his unit cannot fall back and thus you won't get blasted out of table. Fighting twice helps ensuring this one works.

Doesn't work vs anything with fly and anybody that can move unit in psychic phase(like orks) can get around that but a) not every army can do that b) it can still fail.

Biggest issues will be chaff making charges against anything worthwhile hard and being blasted to bits. Above trick helps vs both(turns chaff into trap of sort). Not going to work always especially if opponent knows it but keep an eye for it.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





UK

I'm torn a bit now in my world eaters list to either take a dual power scourge helbute for 130 - like 12 attacks on the charge or a defiler with scourge for 142, not as many attacks and slower but a lot more durable and potential against big stuff

hmmmm its tricky?

 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Latro_ wrote:
I'm torn a bit now in my world eaters list to either take a dual power scourge helbute for 130 - like 12 attacks on the charge or a defiler with scourge for 142, not as many attacks and slower but a lot more durable and potential against big stuff

hmmmm its tricky?


Why not both? The cuts in pts were substantial. But for allround purposes i'd go with the defiler since it always atleast can shoot.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






That loadout doesn't seem legal when I'm looking on the sheet.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

I am really excited for the Defiler and Hellbrute price cuts. As an Emperor's Children player with two Sonic Dreads and a Defiler, the price cuts there alone will save me 100 points on my 2000 point list... which is madness.

I am also happy about the price reductions on Raptors and Chaos Bikers. Bikers are down another handful of points, Raptors are down as well. Plasma Raptors before had a niche of being a budget contender for Obliterators. Now with further price reductions to both bodies and war gear, they are even cheaper. This makes them a bit more viable. Same with Bikers. Not that these units will be able to replace Obliterators, but they are coming in pretty cheap these days!

I am excited to go through my list and slash prices and figure out what I am going to do with 100+ points to spend...

Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Also that defiler gains some serious advantages depending on the mark you give it and if you take deamons as well. Slaaneah defiler with slaanesh deamon herald can advance and charge as long as they stay near each other. Put a maulerfiend with mark of slaanesh next to them as well and..... thats coming at your opponent quite fast.....
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




 akaean wrote:
I am excited to go through my list and slash prices and figure out what I am going to do with 100+ points to spend...


This. As a potential new WE player Praise Khorne for all the price reductions. My future list expanded by an extra Helbrute and ten Cultists and I still have 90 points to go!

Ultra-Ultramarines are a great idea. 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 BoomWolf wrote:
That loadout doesn't seem legal when I'm looking on the sheet.


I think it was added in the FAQ that they can take double scourge...

it's frustrating how you need to look in multiple places just to take basic units barely 15 months after the book hit.

   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




I always wanted terminators to work on the tabletop. The reaper autocannon and Combi-Plasma Powerax Termies seem like a half decent elites choice now with endless cacophony and 10 point reaper autocannons!

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
 
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