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Title pretty much says it all. They are both fabulously vicious psychic aliens that lead genestealers. They have similar looking and sized models.

So what is the difference in the background? Can they co-exist? Is a Broodlord a lesser version of a Patriarch? A sort of sub-leader of Genestealer broods?

This is muddied by the Spawn of Cryptus, a Broodlord (that introduced the current Broodlord model), yet first appearing

Age is a big difference - Broodlords can be days old whereas Patriarchs are generally very old.

Patriarchs lead a GSC, outside of direct synapse contact.

Broodlords lead throngs of Genestealers, and are directly under hive mind control.

But what about the Spawn of Cryptus? Described as a Broodlord, yet built up a cult on a planet prior to the arrival of Leviathan.

Are Broodlords and Patriarchs fundamentally the same xenomorph, but under different circumstances?

Patriarchs were once normal purestrains who founded a cult. Broodlords are spawned as such. I suppose technically there could be a Broodlord Patriarch if one were to found a cult.

Model-wise, the Patriarch (from the Broodcoven box) is spikier and comes with a 50mm round base while the Broodlord has a 75x42mm Oval base.
Rules wise the Patriarch has +1S over the Broodlord.

 Haighus wrote:
But what about the Spawn of Cryptus? Described as a Broodlord, yet built up a cult on a planet prior to the arrival of Leviathan.

Are Broodlords and Patriarchs fundamentally the same xenomorph, but under different circumstances?

Deathstorm came out 3 years prior to the first new GSC codex, so it might simply be a result of the aurthor not knowing what GW were planning for the GSC.

That said, we also have a story of a patriarch that had bonded with an avatar of khaine, creating an entire craftworld of GSC (2017).

So the spawn of cryptus could simply be one of those "one in a million" cases.

I feel every previous post is correct.

There are fundamentally the same thing, just created under different circumstances.
In the absence of direct control of the Hive mind, the biggest/oldest GS would become a Patriarch with its own sphere of control, but once the Hive Mind is near - Bam! Instant Broodlord.
But a Hive fleet can essentially create a fully formed Broodlord without it having to slowly become one in the manner that a Patriarch does over generations.

-

I have also just found this from the Tyranid Kill team commander box:

The bioform codified by the Inquisition as Nemesis 9 Tyrantis is a true horror. It prizes terror so highly it likes to leave one prey-creature from each group of victims alive so they might spread their fear to the common herd of Vigilus like a virus. Nemesis 9 Tyrantis has on more than one occasion been mistaken for the leader of the planet’s Genestealer Cult infestation – however, so long as the Broodlord gets to feed on the minds and bodies of the populace, it cares little for the chatterings of ambulatory biomass.

There are no other Tyranids on Vigilus, only genestealers. So can Cults also spawn Broodlords as combat leaders? (I am aware this is not currently supported in the rules).

In addition, the Space Hulk Broodlord is, well, locked in hibernation on a space hulk, leading thousands of genestealers. Presumably they are the most likely genestealer to become a Patriarch if the space hulk had been found by some salvagers, rather than Blood Angels.

It is all very blurry. I agree that some of the fluff predates the current revival of GSC, yet even more recent fluff crosses over, like the Vigilus Broodlord (on a planet with three Patriarchs). The blurb even mentions the Broodlord has been mistook for a Patriarch!

 Haighus wrote:


It is all very blurry. I agree that some of the fluff predates the current revival of GSC, yet even more recent fluff crosses over, like the Vigilus Broodlord (on a planet with three Patriarchs). The blurb even mentions the Broodlord has been mistook for a Patriarch!

In 4th edition the broodlord and genestealers had different scientific names.

- and then 5th editon came around:



And then 6th:



So prior to 8th edition, broodlords and patriarchs were the same thing.

But then 8th happened:

"Once infected, a victim is enthralled by the Genestealers’ nascent telepathy and Tyranid attributes are passed on to its offspring, creating monstrous hybrids completely under the alien’s domination. These deformities eventually breed true, creating Purestrain Genestealers under the control of the progenitor of the cult, the Genestealer Patriarch – a formidably intelligent alpha beast possessing fearsome telepathic power. For years these creatures lurk in sewers and caves beneath cities, preying on the populace like folk-tale monsters. Within just a few years they will have assembled a vast network of mind-controlled operatives, embedded in every stratum of the local planetary government and military. Thus placed they wait, sometimes for many years, until the Hive Mind’s will once again dominates their psyches"

So I could point in the direction of a retcon in regards to broodlords = patriarchs. Mabye.

It was my understanding that any genestealer could become a patriarch by starting a cult it would evolve into a patriarch, where as a broodlord can be created by the hive mind whenever it likes?

BlIt seems to me that by definition, the patriarch founded the cult, while the most powerful.type of purestrain genestealer is a broodlord. A Patriarch could be a broodlord, and GSCs can generate them, but so can hive fleets.

Both are super-sized Genestealers.

Isnt the simple difference that a Broodlord is a Tyranid engineered leader unit, where as a Patriarch is the Purestrain progenitor of an entire Cult?

 Formosa wrote:
It was my understanding that any genestealer could become a patriarch by starting a cult it would evolve into a patriarch, where as a broodlord can be created by the hive mind whenever it likes?

This is my understanding. In Cult of the Spiral Dawn, 4 Genestealers land, one of which transforms into the patriarch once the cult is established.

phillv85 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It was my understanding that any genestealer could become a patriarch by starting a cult it would evolve into a patriarch, where as a broodlord can be created by the hive mind whenever it likes?

This is my understanding. In Cult of the Spiral Dawn, 4 Genestealers land, one of which transforms into the patriarch once the cult is established.

The first genestealer to infect someone evolves into a patriarch, think of a wolf pack and an alpha. But let's say once the cult expands and they send one of those genestealers out to another world. Since it left the pack and if it infects someone it will then start to evolve into a patriarch.

So you could have two patriarch's on a world if the distance is sufficient enough as well. The Vigilus campaign book muses on that theory.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Both are super-sized Genestealers.

I agree with this. I don't think there's any real physiological difference between the three apart from size, age and impetus. If a genestealer can grow into a patriarch, then doesn't that suggest the a patriarch is just a mature genestealer. Likewise, a hive's ability to spawn a fully mature broodlord could just be a result of a regular genestealer being gestated for much longer. Who's to say that a regular hive genestealer can't just grow into a broodlord in much the same way that a cultist genestealer can grow into a patriarch?

TL;DR: patriarch = broodlord with a mission = mature genestealer (I reckon)

Edit: I attribute the +1S of a patriarch to age/maturity.

Basically the Broodlord is the Big Brother, where as a Parriarch is a daddy.

I don't think the patriarch is just an older/more mature genestealer. Think in nature how some animals have an adult male form which, under the right conditions, can morph into a subsequent 'alpha' form. Think Orangutan harem leaders or Silverback gorillas. Its a form not all adult males will develop.

Basically the patriarch is a genestealer that has purchased Dad Strength, Dad Reflexes and Daddy Magic (such as reading it's broodlings minds) DLC. Some say it's pay to win, but overall it's generally agreed that while expensive the Daddy DLC is worthwhile. Looking at GSC I have to agree!

nareik wrote:
Basically the Broodlord is the Big Brother, where as a Parriarch is a daddy.

I don't think the patriarch is just an older/more mature genestealer. Think in nature how some animals have an adult male form which, under the right conditions, can morph into a subsequent 'alpha' form. Think Orangutan harem leaders or Silverback gorillas. Its a form not all adult males will develop.

Basically the patriarch is a genestealer that has purchased Dad Strength, Dad Reflexes and Daddy Magic (such as reading it's broodlings minds) DLC. Some say it's pay to win, but overall it's generally agreed that while expensive the Daddy DLC is worthwhile. Looking at GSC I have to agree!

Actually, with respect to gorillas and orangs, this is a common misconception, but for genestealer purposes, it's a decent hypothesis.

Ok, so under the current understanding of the background, there doesn't seem to be any reason why a Patriarch-led cult couldn't have purestrain broods lead by broodlords? Obviously the rules do not support this, but that doesn't seem to be in contradiction to existing fluff. The Tyranid Killteam commander seems to be exactly this- a big broodlord purestrain leading sabotage attacks for a cult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

nareik wrote:
Basically the Broodlord is the Big Brother, where as a Parriarch is a daddy.

I don't think the patriarch is just an older/more mature genestealer. Think in nature how some animals have an adult male form which, under the right conditions, can morph into a subsequent 'alpha' form. Think Orangutan harem leaders or Silverback gorillas. Its a form not all adult males will develop.

Basically the patriarch is a genestealer that has purchased Dad Strength, Dad Reflexes and Daddy Magic (such as reading it's broodlings minds) DLC. Some say it's pay to win, but overall it's generally agreed that while expensive the Daddy DLC is worthwhile. Looking at GSC I have to agree!

Actually, with respect to gorillas and orangs, this is a common misconception, but for genestealer purposes, it's a decent hypothesis.

Perhaps a better analogy would be ants, where a nest is all the same species, but can have queens, workers and soldiers within the same unit?

Only difference so far as I'm aware is a Patriarch has a Cult.

Broodlords are likely much the same in terms of development, just force fed by the Hive Mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though I think the Patriarch has greater psychic potential?

In the older lore the Patriarch was a big fat Genestealer sitting in a throne focused on psychically controlling the cult. The Broodlord is effectively a super buff Genestealer with no increased mental faculties right?

So they almost seem opposites to me. The Patriarch evolves to increase its mental potential, whilst the Broodlord is evolved for physical potential. GW seems to have gotten them mixed up in the current re-boot is all.

 Kroem wrote:
In the older lore the Patriarch was a big fat Genestealer sitting in a throne focused on psychically controlling the cult. The Broodlord is effectively a super buff Genestealer with no increased mental faculties right?

So they almost seem opposites to me. The Patriarch evolves to increase its mental potential, whilst the Broodlord is evolved for physical potential. GW seems to have gotten them mixed up in the current re-boot is all.

Actually, that's a good point and something I forgot about. In the new Cult fluff the Patriarch grows their throne out of himself (that's where the boneswords for the cult come from) so that's something a Broodlord can't do.

 Kroem wrote:
The Broodlord is effectively a super buff Genestealer with no increased mental faculties right?

Broodlords are able to use psychic powers, both in the game and in the lore.

Up until 7th edition, there was no difference between them with broodlords mentioned to have cults.

That changed with 8th edition (see my post above for the fluff development).

I would say that the patriarch and broodlord are two different species, just as broodlords and genestealers are two different species.

 Andersp90 wrote:

I would say that the patriarch and broodlord are two different species, just as broodlords and genestealers are two different species.

Or one could go the opposite way and say all Tyrannids are the same species. Species are defined by how they breed right. Do Tyrannids even breed, or do they just "propagate?" Heck, doesn't some of the lore even refer to them as being one single, massive organism?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

I would say that the patriarch and broodlord are two different species, just as broodlords and genestealers are two different species.

Or one could go the opposite way and say all Tyrannids are the same species. Species are defined by how they breed right. Do Tyrannids even breed, or do they just "propagate?" Heck, doesn't some of the lore even refer to them as being one single, massive organism?

Yeah I think the terms strain or form or subspecies or perhaps breed are more appropriate to Tyranid creatures, because they are one, but many, with distinct patterns of recurring slave-beasts.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

I would say that the patriarch and broodlord are two different species, just as broodlords and genestealers are two different species.

Or one could go the opposite way and say all Tyrannids are the same species. Species are defined by how they breed right. Do Tyrannids even breed, or do they just "propagate?" Heck, doesn't some of the lore even refer to them as being one single, massive organism?

I am using the term species, because that is the term the lore/imperium uses.

Every organism was given a species name in 4th edition. The broodlord was designated as corporaptor primus, while genestealers were named corporaptor hominis and so on.

That said, I agree that we cant view them in the same light as we do with earths fauna.

It is mentioned in the 3rd edition codex that it is hard to determin where one strain begins, and another ends.

In the book "xenology" they take it a step further:



So, for what its worth - by the imperiums defenition - I would say that the broodlord and patriarch are to different species.