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Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission






Is it just me, or has the online 40k community become significantly less... childish, than it used to be?

Remember in 5th Edition, when everyone and their granny had a 40k blog through which they dispensed list-building advice to the masses?

Remember how the advice tended to differ only slightly from blog to blog - one dude would recommend an exra Long Fang per Pack while another recommended an extra Razorback - yet the factions which coalesced around these bloggers would shred each other verbally in every Dakka thread and article's comment section?

Remember when certain 40k news aggregators pretended to be above all the petty drama by engaging in said drama only from a different angle?

BBAP remembers.

None of this seems to occur anymore. You get the odd crank here and there, but none of the screeching nerd cat-fights you used to see. I think we desrve a collective pat on the back for that.

- - - - - - -
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Nope I don't remember, but that sounds amazing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

i have noted a perceptible madurity in the warhammer community at least in spain. 10-15 years ago the drama, the discussion, and the ragequits from tournaments was absolutely common. TFG ran rampant everywhere.

But now? Hell. You have some tables calling the judgues, and some discussions, but the drama as reduced to nearly 0. I have gone to 64-128 person tournaments that had 0 big problems, and in general the community is very healthy.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission






Haven't been to any events in 18 months or so so I can't speak for that side of things, but it's always great to go to a thing and not have to deal with TFG. Hope it's like that over here too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nope I don't remember, but that sounds amazing.


Men in their 30s and 40s, and in some cases 50s, howling at each other about who was the best at the sci fi plastic toy soldiers game. There were even some IRL grudge matches if I recall correctly. Really good advertisement for the hobby.

- - - - - - -
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

No. Thankfully I wasn't here for that.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Last I recall was a 8th ed fantasy tournament in Texas.

Dude screamed about snapping the bases off his terradons so that a cannon couldn't shoot them.

That was 5ish years ago. Nothing that bad since.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 BBAP wrote:
Haven't been to any events in 18 months or so so I can't speak for that side of things, but it's always great to go to a thing and not have to deal with TFG. Hope it's like that over here too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nope I don't remember, but that sounds amazing.


Men in their 30s and 40s, and in some cases 50s, howling at each other about who was the best at the sci fi plastic toy soldiers game. There were even some IRL grudge matches if I recall correctly. Really good advertisement for the hobby.

If you can't enjoy that kinda infighting, you really can't enjoy any hobby I think.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





I guess as people get older, have kids, etc., they wind in their inner TFG.

You do still get some drama mind, especially on Dakka I find. Does make me chuckle now and the

Prime example was back in 6th when Choas players, myself included, were fiercely critical of other factions because ours was so bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/10 08:58:44


Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, I remember Stelek, a former Dakka member who did his own site.
He had lots of followers and people adoring him.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





Drama is still around in the 40k community. I think the last I saw was some 'Pick Up Artist' having his wife e-beg to buy a Necron titan, and when their obsurdity was met with scoffs- well, the reaction was what you'd expect.

I just avoid the drama. All tabletop gaming is fully of whiny, entitled, and sometimes psychotic geeks and it's best to step back and let them cannibalize one another.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

If you're looking online what I think you are seeing is that a lot of new people, esp younger ones, are heading to Facebook or possibly Reddit and traditional forums are running on a much smaller population. So its not so much the childishness isn't there its just moved somewhere else.
There are very few new forums that are of any great size, so those that have remained tend to have mods that have weeded out most of the bad behaviour over time - plus with a massive drop in getting new members there's fewer joining who are potential trouble makers.


Another aspect is as you get more mature and experienced you learn to filter out some of the drama. Someone ranting and raving about a new Battletome or Codex you just tend to overlook rather than get stuck in because you've seen it 10 times before and its old news.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in ch
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I guess as people get older, have kids, etc., they wind in their inner TFG.

You do still get some drama mind, especially on Dakka I find. Does make me chuckle now and the

Prime example was back in 6th when Choas players, myself included, were fiercely critical of other factions because ours was so bad.


Boooooyy that codex still makes me annoyed
Never was critical of other dexes though.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





I can remember when I joined this forum. The ass-hattery and rudeness was so bad that I had to block several people straight off the bat. These days things seem a lot more calm and polite on here, which is nice. It's a much better community than I've seen elsewhere online.

40K:
Genestealer Cult - 1287 pts.. 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Watching the LVO stream, there was a pretty bad-blooded moment between a Tau and an Admech player, game 6. By the end they'd calmed down and hugged at the finish.

That kind of good sportsmanship has a positive knock-on effect. Conversely I think the more transparent the game & touraments become, the more the community can police bad behaviour. the net effect of these two things is a shift in norms - I think the game & its community is heading in a great direction.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





UK

The internet wasn't a thing back when I used to play RT!

One thing I have noticed since getting back into the hobby is that the overwhelmingly negative comments about the game on Dakka don't seem to be reflected in the wider community, certainly not in my local gaming group anyway. They just seem to get on with playing and enjoying the game...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/10 18:39:46


https://www.flickr.com/photos/brothercastor/
[800] Ultramarines
[1500] Renegade Knights 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not sure about Drama, but the negativity hasn't gone anywhere. Most people hang out with people who think similarly to themselves, so those that are overwhelmingly negative will typically stick within their own groups.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yet put in money in line as some tournaments put in the misguided idea of using 40k as some sort of "sport" when it's about least suitable game in the world for that and you have cheating and TFG behaviour aplenty as has been seen thorough 8th ed.

As money prizes has been going up so has cheating and TFG'ing.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
2465 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Overread wrote:
If you're looking online what I think you are seeing is that a lot of new people, esp younger ones, are heading to Facebook or possibly Reddit and traditional forums are running on a much smaller population. So its not so much the childishness isn't there its just moved somewhere else.
There are very few new forums that are of any great size, so those that have remained tend to have mods that have weeded out most of the bad behaviour over time - plus with a massive drop in getting new members there's fewer joining who are potential trouble makers.


Another aspect is as you get more mature and experienced you learn to filter out some of the drama. Someone ranting and raving about a new Battletome or Codex you just tend to overlook rather than get stuck in because you've seen it 10 times before and its old news.

This, go check out some of the Facebook groups, drama is alive and well there. Plus we still have the odd folk here and there on this site, usually they only get bad when you bring up a contentious topic though.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 BBAP wrote:
Is it just me, or has the online 40k community become significantly less... childish, than it used to be?

Remember in 5th Edition, when everyone and their granny had a 40k blog through which they dispensed list-building advice to the masses?

Remember how the advice tended to differ only slightly from blog to blog - one dude would recommend an exra Long Fang per Pack while another recommended an extra Razorback - yet the factions which coalesced around these bloggers would shred each other verbally in every Dakka thread and article's comment section?

Remember when certain 40k news aggregators pretended to be above all the petty drama by engaging in said drama only from a different angle?

BBAP remembers.

None of this seems to occur anymore. You get the odd crank here and there, but none of the screeching nerd cat-fights you used to see. I think we desrve a collective pat on the back for that.
The drama is still there, it's just not quite as front and center.

GW actually controls their messaging now, so it's not left to random internet people to control it. They have community outreach stuff, active engagement, and their own sites. We don't have everything going through BoLS or a couple rumormongers on Warseer. Tournaments are much more professional and organized affairs in many cases and it makes it harder for TFG's to run amok quite as easily (though obviously this is still possible). The game is also in such a constant state of flux with so much more stuff and kinds of play and different tournament standards that it's hard to nail everything down quite as much as was possible under say, 4th or 5th edition and we don't end up having 8 months to "solve" the game between Codex releases with only 5 different basic Rulebook missions to play. The game and community has also cycled through a number of extremely toxic personalities that no longer appear to engage with the hobby anymore. There's also just a lot more tabletop stuff out there, so people have more choices if they just don't like 40k.

Most of the truly ugly drama has moved off to different places I think, stuff like Reddit & Facebook (which have had drama the likes of which Dakka has never seen or even remotely approached, particularly Reddit), while Blogs have become increasingly passé in many respects.

I think there's also something to be said for the fact that 40k is a lot more expensive to get into than it used to be (and it was *never* cheap). At the end of 4E and start of 5E Guardsmen came 20 to a box for $35, a Codex was $20, Russ Tanks were $40 and came with the Vehicle Accessory Sprue, and a Cadian Battleforce with a Russ tank, twenty guardsmen and 3 Heavy Weapons teams was $90. Adjusting that for inflation, Guardsmen should be $43.4 for 20 ($21.7 for 10), a Codex should be $25, Russ Tanks should be and a Battleforce should be $111.60. Now Guardsmen are 10 to a box for $30, a Codex is $50, Russ Tanks are $50 (which tracks right with inflation...but now the vehicle accessory sprue is an extra $15) and the $90 Battleforce gets you only 10 Guardsmen with and a Commissar and a Russ tank (or only about $65 worth of stuff by the inflation-adjusted value of 4E/5E prices). In real terms, the hobby is just dramatically more expensive to get into than it used to be, usually by about 33-50%, and that does put some selection pressure on the kinds of people likely to get into the hobby in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/10 21:21:01


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

Anyone remember the official GW forum on their website? By the Emperor, what a hell that was. The Warp itself would be tame in comparison.
   
Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission






 Ginjitzu wrote:
Anyone remember the official GW forum on their website? By the Emperor, what a hell that was. The Warp itself would be tame in comparison.


The one where you got banned for mentioning Squats? I didn't hang around much before it died but... yeah.

- - - - - - -
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Anyone remember the official GW forum on their website? By the Emperor, what a hell that was. The Warp itself would be tame in comparison.
To be fair, the worst part about it was the site itself. The format they had was horrific to try and sort through and read, I think half angst came from trying to navigate it

That came down what, end of 2006? Twas a very different online world back then

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I think it was even earlier, like 2004. It wasn't that bad, and it was nice when you'd actually get the designer to reply to something.

It just got that they didn't like to hear criticism (granted not all of it was constructive)

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

People who appear to enjoy gaming in general seem to be in charge of GW again.
All the "rage" was caused by those in power deciding what was "good" in a vacuum ignoring their customer-base.
People tend to escalate when something they love appears to be pee'ed-on by those only interested in money without the effort to engage the source of the money.

We have pretty good rules.
Cleaning those up go a long way in reducing TFG behaviour by removing grey areas.
The models and factions are all good to see and had been requested through the ages.
Updates are fairly quick and they even implemented the "Chapter Approved" which was also published around 3rd edition which was in happier times.

Community Drama is less because we are largely getting what we want: a fun hobby experience with minimal confusion.

I would really like to see alternating unit activation and a wee bit less determined by dice-rolls and I would be "content".

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Talizvar raises a good point; also GW is communicating with us (in the extreme we get a daily bit of news or community article EVERY day now it seems). Another big issue in the dark days was that GW would do stuff without telling much until release day. There was very little to no pre-release info which, of course, led to people going in circles debating/arguing about what might come.
Plus those who met with no codex over and over soon got to worrying that their army was to be squatted and that makes people highly strung and worried and annoyed.

Even without GW's faster turn around periods now the communication ease a lot of contention (for the most part when it goes right) and also gives a good solid air that GW is listening to its customers.



Kirby was famous for saying he never needed community feedback or market research to know what the market wanted. And to be fair when he came into his position GW wasn't in the best of places and likely did need to take a more closed management approach to get things back on track - and they did. I feel, however that what he set in motion didn't change nor adapt to a changing situation and that if he was using business theory it was from other markets. Wargamers are odd in the modern world - we don't buy products that recycle fast; we expect 10 or more years support; we actually require improved product (material/design/details/style) to make us upgrade etc....

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I will say something though, being involved in one way or another in this hobby since 1996 (so 2nd edition 40k).

To use a real-world analogy, I see Warhammer as having 3 "eras":

1) The Golden Age, similar to the height of the Roman Empire before the Dark Ages. This was the 2nd edition days up until probably around 4th edition when they began to ignore criticism, lash out at independent retailers and kill their own games for "competing" with their main 2 games.

2) The Dark Ages: This would be the "Kirby Era" of no communication, treating customers like dirt and coming close to the precipice of going the way of TSR. This also represents the era of "We're a model company, not a game company"
as an excuse despite that being objectively false.

3) The Middle Ages: This would be the current age. GW is active again with the community instead of ignoring it and issuing the word of God from the Ivory Tower, the rules are in an overall good place (certain issues notwithstanding) and in general an infinite improvement over the dark ages.

Now to me, while I 100% agree that the way 40k is now is a lot better than how it was in the decline, it is IMHO a pale imitation of the real golden age. In the golden age, GW had passionate and knowledgeable designers (e.g. Andy Chambers, Alessio Cavatore, Rick Priestly himself). People who genuinely had an interest in making a solid game with great models, rather than pretty models with something resembling a game built around them. They engaged with the community, they supported independent stores more (does anyone remember the Outriders?) and overall things were pretty damn good.

That's how I see it now. This is imitating the glory days, but not actually coming close to them. And IMHO the biggest thing I find lacking is passion. None of the current crop of designers (who, other than Jervis I'm pretty sure all came on board during the Dark Ages) see to be really passionate about the game; sure you sometimes get a well-written codex but a lot of them just feel phoned in and designed by someone (or multiple people) who really can't get "into" the faction enough to really make them play correctly, while in the golden age it felt like all the designers really wanted each army to be as good as it could be.

This is, incidentally, a big reason why the Chaos 3.5 codex was so good and IMHO the single best codex GW ever put out, despite its flaws; it was written by someone who legitimately played Chaos as their primary army and played against Chaos for many years (Pete Hiaines being a friend of Andy Chambers') and really wanted to have them look and work great. For all of is flaws that book showed real passion in designing it that you rarely, if ever, see anymore.

So yes, 40k is better now that it has been the last several years, perhaps even close to the last decade. But for those of us who remember the real glory days, we can see through what they're doing now and see how it's just an attempt to regain the days of old. It's a pale imitation of what the real golden age was. Perhaps unironically exactly like the Imperium itself.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/11 18:31:12


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 BBAP wrote:
None of this seems to occur anymore. You get the odd crank here and there, but none of the screeching nerd cat-fights you used to see. I think we desrve a collective pat on the back for that.


It's Monday morning after the biggest tournament of the year, give it time to fester and become truly toxic.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in gb
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




Interestingly in contrance to many users views, I find reading Dakka keeps me informed, but ultimately puts me right off the hobby. Every thread is full of negativity, I mean my god am I sick of people hearing about Knight Castellans or Eldar Soup.

If I got to actually play in a local event [a rare event in itself.] everyone seems lovely I have an amazing time, make new friends and have some really solid games of warhammer. The difference is quite stark.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Thank the MODs in this forum. They weed out 120% of the unnecessary, childish banters so we can go on and live our lives talking about what matters - RAW vs. RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 18:37:59


 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






It feels to me like there’s less ego floating around in general. Peeps are mostly left to enjoy their hobby their way.

There are still some elements I wish we didn’t have, but that’s likely more opinion than anything approaching fact.

Example? Without explicitly mentioning names, there was once a tournament group that described themselves as ‘elite’ 40k gamers. They really did consider themselves above mere plebs, and weren’t much fun to interact with online.

What happened to them? DFKDFC. But I’ve not seen hide nor hair of them for yonks. So I’m guessing they either consumed themselves, or grew older and chilled out a bit. Either way, their absence isn’t necessarily unwelcome.

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
 
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