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Recently got into it with my group because they wanted to do a 500 point round robin with our various armies when I said sounds like my custodes will be at a disadvantage with my all of 3 unit choices my points being I won't have access to my heavy unit choices or elite choices without those items being list defining or most of my anti vehicle slots nevermind objective security options. Feel free to disagree just want to hear other peoples thoughts if some armies suffer at low point games. Please also add credentials such as time played/touramemt victories as these guys tend to think that their two month of basement play makes them experts

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 16:57:43


 
   
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Well I think I saw your buddy's post on Facebook about this, lol. Obviously some armies are at a disadvantage at lower point levels.

I'd probably just do something silly, like a Supreme Command of 3 shield captains + an Assassin. 4 models on the table, but you can make all of them SUPER tough, and many lists won't be able to handle that, so you might actually win.

edit - just checked model prices, no assassin then just 3 jetbike captains.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 17:37:03


 
   
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I played a few low point games (750 pts I think) against Necrons at the start of 8th and they were surprisingly beast.

Reanimation protocols is scary when you don't have the output to totally wipe a unit.
   
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Wow, I didn't know there was a hard cap on what constitutes a tabletop wargaming expert!

Perhaps if you feel so salty about your gaming mates it's time to find new ones?



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Definately, some armies struggle at lower points level - just as some become much better.

I’ve found 40K plays better at smaller games (about 1,000 - 1,250 points), but you also have to be conscious of other limitations beyond mere points to get “fairer” games. For ex, 1000 points of conscripts vs. a super heavy is going to be very lopsided from the start.

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Most games do have a ‘practical minimum’ size, just as they’ll have a practical maximum size.

If your friends want to play smaller games? Well, there’s Killteam for that!

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My local meta seems to be mono-faction 800 point lists for pick-up games, which is why I've gone down that route too. At 800 points you can get a nice battalion detachment with elite, fast attack and heavy support units too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 20:12:09


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I feel like 750 points and you're still likely to have a pretty minimal set of options and your army will mostly be defined by HQ and one or two non-troops options.

I've done 500, but don't like it: it's a bit rough for many armies to even fit in their minimums.


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 Stormonu wrote:
Definately, some armies struggle at lower points level - just as some become much better.

I’ve found 40K plays better at smaller games (about 1,000 - 1,250 points), but you also have to be conscious of other limitations beyond mere points to get “fairer” games. For ex, 1000 points of conscripts vs. a super heavy is going to be very lopsided from the start.

Agreed, I've tended to follow the old '40k in 40 minutes' rules when playing smaller games in previous editions. However, they would require some modifications for playing 8th edition.
   
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UK

Some armies do suffer at lower point values. Plus its much easier for some to take an "extreme" option and have a better chance that opponents won't all have countermeasures because the points are very restrictive at 500.

That said most 500point games tend to be at the very casual end of things. They are intro and learning games when one is being taught how to play and/or when one has a block of beginners all start at the same time and they are all still building armies.

It's when you have fun quick skirmishes to fill in on the evening and the like. Or perhaps you do a growth campaign and the first rounds are 500, then the points scale up gradually through the campaign to bigger games (another great introductory method that encourages a group of people to collect and build armies at the same time)

Or lets throw half the rules out and play a 4 person free-for-all or 5 or 7 or however many.

I wouldn't put too great a stock in it; if everyone has started around the same time then chances are some of them might not have more than 500 points of an army (and if they do maybe only 500 is build, painted and based). 2 months of basement play sounds just like the group is getting started; just like many might not have 1K of models to use and 500 is nice low value everyone can battle with.


Sometimes you gotta put the win aside and enjoy the other areas of the game. Enjoy the challenge; the social aspect; appreciate and respect the fact that some of your opponents are still building armies and might not be ready for 1K or greater games.

Sounds like a fun short term campaign!

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yes they are and i blame horde armies and spesificly IG.

idk what their current points are cuz i gave up on following it after the CA bs started to appear, but before CA17, i could get 3x 10 man with plasma and rocket launcher, 1 company commander, 1 tank commander and 1 psyker for 500p.
in return, custodes gets a 3 man guard troop, 1 shield captain, 1 aura buffer and a dreadnought for 500p.
that is 33 models vs 6 models. even if 30 of them has the survivability of a paper wall, it dont matter.
custodes dont have enugh shots/attacks to deal with them fast enugh, nor can they be fighting and grabbing objectives at the same time like IG can.

idk how orks and tyranids do it as i dont have their codex but i would be supprised if they cannot bring out something similar to what IG do.


when there are so big difference in preformance and unit cost between the elite and horde armies, low point games simply will never work witout some serious house rules and unit limitations.
thats why skirmish games exists, as they are designed for low point value games.

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chaselaporte wrote:
Recently got into it with my group because they wanted to do a 500 point round robin with our various armies when I said sounds like my custodes will be at a disadvantage with my all of 3 unit choices my points being I won't have access to my heavy unit choices or elite choices without those items being list defining or most of my anti vehicle slots nevermind objective security options. Feel free to disagree just want to hear other peoples thoughts if some armies suffer at low point games. Please also add credentials such as time played/touramemt victories as these guys tend to think that their two month of basement play makes them experts


Seeing balance changes with points...Yes. Units will also change value a lot. Pask for example will be lot more terrifying in 1000 pts than 2000 pts. In 500 he could be rather hard to remove while being basically wipe out any target he faces per turn.

Also armies that can get cheap battallions have advantage due to getting way more CP's and strategems themselves have bigger impact in smaller games than bigger games.

So yeah expect balance to shift around quite a bit by changing point levels. You can only play each strategem once per turn so in smaller game having only 1 unit benefitting them isn't worry because you can only use 1 and that unit is much smaller part of army. In bigger game that same unit is suddenly smaller part of whole army...Strategem that gives your unit say reroll to wounds shooting in 500 pts game basically affects your entire army often. In 2000 pts much smaller part.

And of course as you said adding tools against something gets much harder for some armies. Necron AT ability is primarily doomsday ark. Much harder to fit that when your cheapest battallion is 375...Indeed it's impossible so you are either going to be without your primary AT(giving that pask free run) or you don't have battallion leaving you with less CP's.

And btw it's not just going smaller. Balance starts to buckle up to even worse than the usual when you go ABOVE 2k. Oh and don't forget that smaller/bigger the game also the board size is going to matter. If you play 500 pts on 6'x4' that's also going to change balance a lot in favour of certain armies compared to playing in 4'x4'. And similary if you don't scale up board when going to 3k or 4k that's going to screw/favour other armies as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 10:47:57


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I find I enjoy 40k most at 1000 points on a 4x4. Tight armies, relatively quick games, with a 2x4 side board to put stuff on It occurs to me that putting a 2 detachment max on there isn't a bad idea, help curb spam a bit but otherwise leave the vast majority of 1k lists alone.

I agree with the sentiment that there's a tipping point as you drop points and at some point you may as well just play Kill Team, which is better designed for small scale (either the current 100 point tiny board game or the old 200 point small scale war game).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 14:28:16


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As others have said, the balance between 40k armies changes as you change the points value. Necrons are a good example because their Reanimation Protocols rule gets worse and worse as you go up in points. At low points values (maybe 1k and down) it's super strong because it's hard to wipe a full unit. At higher point values, the opponent usually has enough dakka to wipe a unit and ensure they never get a roll.

Side comment... this is one thing I love about games like FFG's Armada or Legion. The points values are fixed and everyone tends to play the standard size, so balance is much easier to achieve.

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