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I really think GW should re-examine the lore for the Grey Knights and give them a slight change of direction to help modify their rules to make them more effective. Storywise, this could be an internal (or external if they want to hand the credit to Bobby G.) reassessment as the Grey Knights "realize" they have a larger threat on their hands than ever before.

Right now, they are "Daemons, daemons, daemons". I think that should they should have some sort of edict change to broaden them - a broader concentration more on psychic threats in general (after all, psychic power tends to root of what draws and allows Daemons to enter the mortal realm). That then lets Deathwatch focus on Xeno threats and Custodes to focus on internal and subversive threats. Likewise, regular marines, as "all-rounders", can be called in on all manner of manifested physical threats from rebellion to xeno threats that need elite, surgical-strike forces to eliminate (at least, in theory).

Ruleswise, this allows Grey Knights to expand their abilities against not only daemons, but psykers and a broader ability to use psychic powers/abilities in the pursuit of their goals. Instead of giving Grey Knights mini-smite, I believe they should have an order-like system that allows them to augment themselves or hinder their enemy to increase their chances of success (this gives them some design space for facing against non-psychic armies, such as Tau and Necron). I'd like to see them with several units/abilities/strategies that can punish psykers (without necessarily shutting them down - that's the tricky part) or to turn non-psychic forces on themselves (giving GK something to do against psykerless IG, Tau, Necrons, Knights and the like)

While there are other issues to be resolved with Knights, I think this sort of refocus would help to put them on the path to be a relevant force that isn't solely (fluff-wise) supposed to be a hard counter to Daemons, but a more viable force against a wider variety of opponent's armies.

It's a bit conspiracy-theory-esque, but I do believe you will eventually see Primaris Grey Knights. It could be back-burner stuff, perhaps not for a year or two, maybe longer. BUT...I do think you'll see them and it'll be similar to normal marines. Current Grey Knights will slowly rot on the vine and succumb to worse rules than their eventual replacements. I don't know how high a priority it is for GW though. They'll continue to get some minor help and boosts (perhaps).

Personally I've never approved of them being an actual army, but that's for another discussion.

Well, GK should have some kind of ''aegis'' special rule so that ranged weapons hit them by -1.
Strikes and Interceptors are simply too expensive when compared with Tactical/Assault Marines.
Okay they have improved weapons but they die as easy as Tacticals.

It's been a fairly longstanding thing in the game that while the ordo hereticus/sisters of battle have been the perceived 'anti-psyker' army, they've always been poor at the job while the grey knights have been pretty good at it - psykers being the answer to psykers at the end of the day.

Unless i've massively misinterpreted the rules somewhere the whole GK faction is sporting an enhanced +1 deny the witch from each and every squad, on top of free army-wide anti-psyker mortal wound grenades and a stratagem that lets even vehicles deny the witch - with an extra dice no less.


What they are arguably lacking is two psychic tables, major powers that follow the usual 1/turn rule such as vortex of doom and gate of infinity, and minor powers such as hammerhand and the oldschool shrouding that can be used by any number of squads.

I think the real issue is that Grey Knights should never have been a standalone army.

It's like having an entire army of bomb-disposal specialists. Unless your opponent has decided to play a minefield, you're probably not in for a thrilling game.

 vipoid wrote:
I think the real issue is that Grey Knights should never have been a standalone army.

It's like having an entire army of bomb-disposal specialists. Unless your opponent has decided to play a minefield, you're probably not in for a thrilling game.

For truth.

Unfortunately, GW didn't get the message and shoehorned them into an army. Too bad their main original unit (Terminators) are too much for Kill Team, that's where they ought to shine brightest.

 vipoid wrote:
I think the real issue is that Grey Knights should never have been a standalone army.

It's like having an entire army of bomb-disposal specialists. Unless your opponent has decided to play a minefield, you're probably not in for a thrilling game.

Thats why they should be just remade (At least into rules) into Loyalist Thousand Sonds and be the elite psychic space marine army.
Leave the daemon hunting to maybe 1 or 2 fun stratagems and the fluff of the army.

Currently the GK are not Even good against Daemons, They actually being stomped by the enemy They are designed to deal with. Their rule sounds like they are good at killing daemons, which is only Due to the auto 3 MW smite against Daemon. But they are much fragile for their points cost compare to Daemon, so when those Daemons strike back with anything decent, GK just folds like wet paper. I don't Even need to mention that whole Daemon unit come back at full strength after being killed by GK stratagem.

[tinfoilhat] What if, however so hard to believe, GW inadvertently made GK bad on purpose (especially against demons) so that when they finally do get Primaris (hopefully with a new GK codex too) they herald in a meta-changing resurgence...

With Abaddon apparently on the rise (how ever dumb his story is anymore) maybe GK will be the counter to the Black Legion's new-found joy for demon summoning...[/tinfoilhat]

Almost crazy enough to believe...almost...

Only GW anwser to will GK get primaris was not we are not working on them right now, maybe in the future or some other vogue anwser. It was a strickt no, and people that heard the anwser said the GW person that gave it didn't even think about it. It was no, and then next question.

GK focus doesn't have to change to make them better though. Ton of armies are just plain good, and even better at specific stuff. With GK the problem is the base of their armies. The stats, the points cost, the special rules ,or rather lack of those, GK have.

An army can be kind of a bad but characterful. It can be kind of a bad, but fun to play. specially if it does the stuff people want the army to do. I mean, I doubt legions of IG fans would be super happy, if the only way to play IG was waves of melee ogryns, even if the army was good meta wise.

To me GK seems to have 10-15% over costed units to be a working codex, but because GW decided for soups to be a thing and glue GK cost to marine ones, the chance of a points fix is zero. And to give them rules fixs, where a GK model actually is worth the 20 or 40pts he costs requires two things. Someone to have an idea how GK should work as an army, and some sort of grasp on w40k rules.

GW seems to have a knack to do eldar rules good every time. So to get good GK rules, we just need GW to hire someone with 20-30 years of expiriance of writing GK rules, and we are going to be set for a good codex. Till then I doubt GK will be fixed. I re read all their books and the GK stuff is a copy past most of the time, and the newer the codex is the fewer rules they have. I wouldn't be suprised if next codex GK nemezis weapons stayed with the same point cost, but were just chainswords as far as rules goes.

The big problem with grey knights: the smart way to design a "specialist" type unit is to give them the tools to handle their intended target without STRICTLY LIMITING them to their intended target.

A great example of this is Deathwatch. What do those tricksy xenos usually have a lot of? Light melee troops (think harlequins, wyches, hormagants, ork boyz) and - to hit modifiers are very common occurrences. OR, on the other end of the spectrum, they have things that are difficult to wound like Necrons, Carnifexes, etc.

So what do the signature deathwatch weapons do? They're either autohit (Shotgun, Frag Cannon, Infernus Bolter) or they're great at wounding (2+ to wound ammo, cryptclearer round, etc)

Throw in a couple of bonus extras targeting certain xeno types, and you've got a faction that FEELS specialized without feeling gimped vs everything else.

The base rules of deathwatch don't JUST work on xeno races only.This is why GK feel so fething terrible - so much of what they bring to the table has a huge asterisk that says *VS DEMONS ONLY.

Instead, design them around what demons have, but other races have too.

What do demons do?

Invuln saves.
Lots of light infantry.
Psyker Characters.
Mostly Melee.

The GK weapon set should include some weapons that either force a reroll of an invuln save or ignore them entirely, some relics/stratagems that wreck psykers, plenty of antichaff weapons (They do already have this one) and counter-melee strats and advantages.

Boom. There you go. Feels specialized vs daemons, doesn't feel useles vs everything else.

There are so many things wrong with GK its hard to know where to start, and its made worse by having some of the more powerful "right" things in the game also. Draigo at 180 points is pretty dang good. As are the GM DreadKnights.

I think that GW needs to come to a decision on what it is doing with soup and CP, cause a big part of rewriting GK is rewriting the Stratagems for them.

Correct me where I am wrong please:

We wont see GK primaris until they update the lore/fluff. Ala new base codex update. Because Theoretically, NO ONE KNOWS GK EXIST. Guardsmen are summarily executed to the last after even witnessing them, and all standard marines go through mind wipes. Even Bobby G had to be "let in" on the BIG SECRET.

So to suddenly plop Primaris on them would be to admit that people know about them and defeat their massive lore armor. All GK are made on Titan, which currently no one knows where it is. If Cawl starts giving them upgrades he would have to pull back the curtain, and say "Oh, by the by, here is a super powered Astartes force that could have wiped out the Beast problem if we had asked, but oopsies".

 Elbows wrote:
It's a bit conspiracy-theory-esque, but I do believe you will eventually see Primaris Grey Knights. It could be back-burner stuff, perhaps not for a year or two, maybe longer. BUT...I do think you'll see them and it'll be similar to normal marines. Current Grey Knights will slowly rot on the vine and succumb to worse rules than their eventual replacements. I don't know how high a priority it is for GW though. They'll continue to get some minor help and boosts (perhaps).

Personally I've never approved of them being an actual army, but that's for another discussion.

They are some of the oldest Marine sculpts still running around (the vanilla infantry all got quietly replaced in 6e, most of the Space Wolf and Blood Angel kits are of a similar vintage to the GK), off the top of my head the only Marine kits that are older are the multi-part Captain box, the Command Squad, and the vanilla Terminators.

(On another note I have a GK army that's been gathering dust for quite a long time and I'd love to get a Daemonhunters book back where the Grey Knights are actually treated as elite melee infantry within a larger army rather than trying to claim that six slight variations on the same unit with the same four guns and the same special rules is enough to make an "army".)


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...So to suddenly plop Primaris on them would be to admit that people know about them and defeat their massive lore armor. All GK are made on Titan, which currently no one knows where it is. If Cawl starts giving them upgrades he would have to pull back the curtain, and say "Oh, by the by, here is a super powered Astartes force that could have wiped out the Beast problem if we had asked, but oopsies".

...800 GK (or 3,000 if you reject Ward-fluff) could have wiped out the Beast problem?

Not to mention aren't we talking about the same Cawl who just recently said "Oh, yeah, I've been sitting on Astartes Mk.II and Mk.X power armour for ten thousand years and whoops maybe I should have remembered that was a thing"?

Also why would giving the GK Primaris mean pulling back the curtain? The GK presumably have some "HIGHLY CLASSIFIED, ASK QUESTIONS AND YOU WILL BE SHOT" designation for where their recruits go, why can't you write down on the paperwork "Send (this batch of Primaris Librarius novices) to (HIGHLY CLASSIFIED, ASK QUESTIONS AND YOU WILL BE SHOT)"? Why would you have to reveal anything?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's a bit conspiracy-theory-esque, but I do believe you will eventually see Primaris Grey Knights. It could be back-burner stuff, perhaps not for a year or two, maybe longer. BUT...I do think you'll see them and it'll be similar to normal marines. Current Grey Knights will slowly rot on the vine and succumb to worse rules than their eventual replacements. I don't know how high a priority it is for GW though. They'll continue to get some minor help and boosts (perhaps).

Personally I've never approved of them being an actual army, but that's for another discussion.

They are some of the oldest Marine sculpts still running around (the vanilla infantry all got quietly replaced in 6e, most of the Space Wolf and Blood Angel kits are of a similar vintage to the GK), off the top of my head the only Marine kits that are older are the multi-part Captain box, the Command Squad, and the vanilla Terminators.

(On another note I have a GK army that's been gathering dust for quite a long time and I'd love to get a Daemonhunters book back where the Grey Knights are actually treated as elite melee infantry within a larger army rather than trying to claim that six slight variations on the same unit with the same four guns and the same special rules is enough to make an "army".)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...So to suddenly plop Primaris on them would be to admit that people know about them and defeat their massive lore armor. All GK are made on Titan, which currently no one knows where it is. If Cawl starts giving them upgrades he would have to pull back the curtain, and say "Oh, by the by, here is a super powered Astartes force that could have wiped out the Beast problem if we had asked, but oopsies".

...800 GK (or 3,000 if you reject Ward-fluff) could have wiped out the Beast problem?

Not to mention aren't we talking about the same Cawl who just recently said "Oh, yeah, I've been sitting on Astartes Mk.II and Mk.X power armour for ten thousand years and whoops maybe I should have remembered that was a thing"?

Also why would giving the GK Primaris mean pulling back the curtain? The GK presumably have some "HIGHLY CLASSIFIED, ASK QUESTIONS AND YOU WILL BE SHOT" designation for where their recruits go, why can't you write down on the paperwork "Send (this batch of Primaris Librarius novices) to (HIGHLY CLASSIFIED, ASK QUESTIONS AND YOU WILL BE SHOT)"? Why would you have to reveal anything?

The entire Beast problem was based around their psychic/warp shenanigans, and every GK is a Psychic/warp Sly Marbo unto themselves (DO NOT LOOK ATH THE DATASHEET) so, yes. Fluff wise, the GK could have Spiritbombed the Beast into oblivion. I know this is pure conjecture, but a single GK took down a blood thirster with his bare hands. I'd say this is about that on the scale of fluff stupidity.

At the end of the day, GK are some of the most poorly written fluff pieces in history, and I would not be surprised to see GK squat them with the basic marines. They basically wrote themselves into a corner, and threw away the key. No one knows they exist, there are only 800 of them and it's impossible to make more, and they have lost the planet they came from. I suppose you could Mattward your way out of this with their "fluctuate in time" stupid sauce, and basically write them fluff that equals they go back in time and change events, but that is dumb on a level that GW isn't ready for.

Or did this get re-written as well? Basically they exist in and out of time?

Mabye its just the way I build, but I dont have much trouble vs anything really with 20+ psycannons and 60ish storm bolters in a 2k game. And anything that laughs at stormbolters does not like D3 damage per wound from psychic weapons.

 Orock wrote:
Mabye its just the way I build, but I dont have much trouble vs anything really with 20+ psycannons and 80ish storm bolters in a 2k game. And anything that laughs at stormbolters does not like D3 damage per wound from psychic weapons.

How are you using Psybolt that many times? You get 1 squad of basically HBs per turn, and that's it. So yeah, I laugh at you strike squads in Armor saves.

I think they should change how they use powers, just make them all 2D5 on a 5+ you gain 1 of X , you can repeat any of these powers for any units, but each unit can only be effected by each power once per turn.

1) + Movement (4-6" type of thing)
2) Run and shoot, or Run and charge
3) +1 to all hit s
4) +1 to all wounds
5) +1 to all saves
6) +1 to Deny the Witch

Letting every unit able to cast one of those on themselves would make them different (a niche) and playable imo.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...The entire Beast problem was based around their psychic/warp shenanigans, and every GK is a Psychic/warp Sly Marbo unto themselves (DO NOT LOOK ATH THE DATASHEET) so, yes. Fluff wise, the GK could have Spiritbombed the Beast into oblivion. I know this is pure conjecture, but a single GK took down a blood thirster with his bare hands. I'd say this is about that on the scale of fluff stupidity.

At the end of the day, GK are some of the most poorly written fluff pieces in history, and I would not be surprised to see GK squat them with the basic marines. They basically wrote themselves into a corner, and threw away the key. No one knows they exist, there are only 800 of them and it's impossible to make more, and they have lost the planet they came from. I suppose you could Mattward your way out of this with their "fluctuate in time" stupid sauce, and basically write them fluff that equals they go back in time and change events, but that is dumb on a level that GW isn't ready for.

Or did this get re-written as well? Basically they exist in and out of time?

If I'm not supposed to look at the datasheet then my only basis for making any calls here is either four editions out of date or based on Matt Ward's ludicrous exaggerations about how every Grey Knight is a super badass who can kill Greater Daemons with his bare hands. I'm also not sure why you think it's impossible to reconcile the concept of Grey Knights with the setting without Wardian bizarre-adventures-through-time-and-space crap; there exists a concept called a "retcon" (contraction of "retroactive continuity") where instead of saying "the last author wrote some bizarre and nonsensical material, how do I explain it back into the universe?" you say "the last author wrote some bizarre and nonsensical material, how about we throw it out and start again?"

-"No one knows they exist": Some folks in the Administratum/Telepathica must; even if Titan builds its own weapons they need recruits out of the stream of psykers off the Black Ships, psybolt ammunition has as its active ingredient a "byproduct of the Golden Throne", and there are plenty of raw materials that don't exist on Titan. The High Lords must, their office has control over what is done with gene-seed and records of all Space Marines. The Inquisition must, 800 Grey Knights don't float around through space waiting for daemonic incursions to happen, the Inquisition has them on speed-dial for when they need to purge something. Malcador didn't start the project, instruct a bunch of people to leave stuff in a dead drop, and take the secret of what was going on to his grave; the Grey Knights need to be somehow integrated into the command structure to function.

-"...and every GK is a Psychic/warp Sly Marbo unto themselves (DO NOT LOOK ATH THE DATASHEET) so, yes. Fluff wise, the GK could have Spiritbombed the Beast into oblivion.": Without looking at the datasheet the strength of the Grey Knights is not that they're all super-alpha-tier-world-destroying badasses, they're mid-tier talents individually weaker than most battle psykers who are made stronger by control and coordination. They're an effort to cheat the fundamental "universe says screw you" physics of psykers where the stronger the psyker the more vulnerable to corruption they are by taking psykers too weak to be very vulnerable to corruption and allowing them to combine their strengths to take on more powerful psykers. Fluffwise the Grey Knights aren't a secret super I-win button when fighting psykers any more than the Sisters of Silence or the Culexis Temple are.


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Mabye its just the way I build, but I dont have much trouble vs anything really with 20+ psycannons and 80ish storm bolters in a 2k game. And anything that laughs at stormbolters does not like D3 damage per wound from psychic weapons.

How are you using Psybolt that many times? You get 1 squad of basically HBs per turn, and that's it. So yeah, I laugh at you strike squads in Armor saves.

He isn't. "d3 damage per wound from psychic weapons" refers to Nemesis weapons and Psilencers.

(Anyone with much armour still laughs at 80 storm bolters. Pack them all into 12" range somehow and you can do 8 wounds to a Knight!)

Apologies for not reading this entire thread as what I'm about to write may have already been mentioned.

First of all, I agree that something needs to be done with the Grey Knights. The new Matched Play competitive rules have just made them near useless which is just not fun. If I understand correctly, they aren't bad in Kill Team, but I may have misunderstood. Either way, something needs to be done. So, I don't disagree there. People who have spent hundreds of dollars on models and paints as well as anywhere from months to years of collecting and painting up these amazing looking models really just can't play their army anymore. And, that bothers me.

Back to the main point of this thread, though (and again, I apologize if this has already been mentioned)... there are three Chambers Militant to the Inquisition: Ordo Malleus (Daemon Hunters), Ordo Xenos (Alien Hunters), and Ordo Hereticus (Witch Hunters).

Ordo Malleus is made up of the Grey Knights primarily as well as their successor chapters. Ordo Xenos is made up of Deathwatch.

The last group, Ordo Hereticus, is where I *think* you're trying to spread the influence of the Grey Knights. The issue is that Ordo Hereticus is already taken care of by the Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle). So, the role of Witch Hunters (which I believe could be defined as psychers out of control) is already filled in the 40K universe. It just wouldn't make sense to add the Grey Knights to this Chamber Militant as well.

SG

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Correct me where I am wrong please:

We wont see GK primaris until they update the lore/fluff. Ala new base codex update. Because Theoretically, NO ONE KNOWS GK EXIST. Guardsmen are summarily executed to the last after even witnessing them, and all standard marines go through mind wipes. Even Bobby G had to be "let in" on the BIG SECRET.

So to suddenly plop Primaris on them would be to admit that people know about them and defeat their massive lore armor. All GK are made on Titan, which currently no one knows where it is. If Cawl starts giving them upgrades he would have to pull back the curtain, and say "Oh, by the by, here is a super powered Astartes force that could have wiped out the Beast problem if we had asked, but oopsies".

I went to to GW Facebook and saw this

Well, Grey Knights are not strictly a First Founding Chapter or Successor Chapter, so we are not expecting these models to be added to their ranks. Watch this space for any and all news!

as an anwser to GK getting primaris. No things are 100% sure, but it looks to me as if GK are not getting primaris.

If I'm not supposed to look at the datasheet then my only basis for making any calls here is either four editions out of date or based on Matt Ward's ludicrous exaggerations about how every Grey Knight is a super badass who can kill Greater Daemons with his bare hands.

I don't know who Matt Ward is, but in the GK codex we have right now, to be come a GK paladin you have to go in to the chaos realm naked with no weapons and no armor, just the knowladge of the mystic arts and beat up a demon of every kind. So yeah GK are that good, their basic troops should be better then other marines heros,

The Inquisition must, 800 Grey Knights don't float around through space waiting for daemonic incursions to happen, the Inquisition has them on speed-dial for when they need to purge something

It is very rare for a inquisitor to manage to get a group of GK under him. GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers, they know in advance where an important attack is going to happen, so brotherhoods or its parts can be send in advance, before the attack even happens.

Without looking at the datasheet the strength of the Grey Knights is not that they're all super-alpha-tier-world-destroying badasses, they're mid-tier talents individually weaker than most battle psykers who are made stronger by control and coordination.

The codex says that a fully trained and psycho conditioned GK is equal to a space marine librarian in power, but because the enemies GK face are so powerful in corruption and mystic abilities, GK limit their own power to use it as a defence more then an offence. Only the most senior of GK use their psychic powers in more offensive or support manner, and those take down Greater Demons and Demon Princes single handly. Something only the greatest heros of other marines can pull off. Making a random GK captin stronger and better then then almost all space marines. And when combined with a brotherhood channeling their power through them they are able to pull stuff off beating demonic incrusions with less then 100 men.

I went to to GW Facebook and saw this

Well, Grey Knights are not strictly a First Founding Chapter or Successor Chapter, so we are not expecting these models to be added to their ranks. Watch this space for any and all news!

as an anwser to GK getting primaris. No things are 100% sure, but it looks to me as if GK are not getting primaris.

Does "these models" mean "any Primaris Marines at all" or "Intercessors, Inceptors, Reivers, Aggressors, etc."?

If I'm not supposed to look at the datasheet then my only basis for making any calls here is either four editions out of date or based on Matt Ward's ludicrous exaggerations about how every Grey Knight is a super badass who can kill Greater Daemons with his bare hands.

I don't know who Matt Ward is, but in the GK codex we have right now, to be come a GK paladin you have to go in to the chaos realm naked with no weapons and no armor, just the knowladge of the mystic arts and beat up a demon of every kind. So yeah GK are that good, their basic troops should be better then other marines heros,

Matt Ward is the guy who wrote the 5e Grey Knight book and decided that they should be "the mostest badassest of all the Spess Mahreens" rather than being a Space Marine Chapter specializing in fighting daemons. (Ironically that was also the book that nerfed them from WS5/A2/Ld9 to WS4/A1/Ld8.)

As for "beat up a daemon of every kind" read that as "beat up a Bloodletter, a Pink Horror, a Daemonette, and a Plaguebearer" rather than "beat up one of every unit in the Daemons Codex" and then convince me a Space Marine Librarian couldn't replicate the feat.

The Inquisition must, 800 Grey Knights don't float around through space waiting for daemonic incursions to happen, the Inquisition has them on speed-dial for when they need to purge something

It is very rare for a inquisitor to manage to get a group of GK under him. GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers, they know in advance where an important attack is going to happen, so brotherhoods or its parts can be send in advance, before the attack even happens.

Current Codexes are marketing material designed to sell their army as the most coolest thing ever in the entire setting. I tend to assume that when the GK book tells me that "GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers" I should treat that with a similar level of skepticism as that same book telling me that Kaldor Draigo once beat up Mortarion on his home ground in the Warp and cut bits out of his innards for the hell of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Without looking at the datasheet the strength of the Grey Knights is not that they're all super-alpha-tier-world-destroying badasses, they're mid-tier talents individually weaker than most battle psykers who are made stronger by control and coordination.

The codex says that a fully trained and psycho conditioned GK is equal to a space marine librarian in power, but because the enemies GK face are so powerful in corruption and mystic abilities, GK limit their own power to use it as a defence more then an offence. Only the most senior of GK use their psychic powers in more offensive or support manner, and those take down Greater Demons and Demon Princes single handly. Something only the greatest heros of other marines can pull off. Making a random GK captin stronger and better then then almost all space marines. And when combined with a brotherhood channeling their power through them they are able to pull stuff off beating demonic incrusions with less then 100 men.

Because it's "The Grey Knight Codex". Read the Daemons Codex and it'll tell you that one Greater Daemon can wipe the floor with a hundred Grey Knights, read the Space Marine Codex and it'll tell you one Space Marine Librarian can beat any Grey Knight in a psychic duel.

When we're talking Grey Knight heroes compared to other Marine heroes yes, the Grey Knight is bigger and scarier. A Grey Knight is better trained and better equipped than another Space Marine of comparable role. Individual Strike Squad brethren, however, are not fluff-breaking epic superheroes capable of fighting Greater Daemons on their own.

Yeah, and eldar aspect warriors are super trained mega-ninjas who train for 1000 years and go into unstoppable battle-trances they wake up from surrounded by the blood and carnage caused by the unholy rampages that their superhuman physiques have carried out, their armor an incredible marvel of technological superiority that allows unparalleled protection with freedom of movement that lets them perform acts of impossible, mind defying martial grace!

WS3+ S3 A1 T3 W1 LD8 Sv4+

Looks like a bowlegged coneheaded dingus wearing american football pads holding a nerf gun.

(your codex's fluff may not be exactly equivalent to your model's performance in-game.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I went to to GW Facebook and saw this

Well, Grey Knights are not strictly a First Founding Chapter or Successor Chapter, so we are not expecting these models to be added to their ranks. Watch this space for any and all news!

as an anwser to GK getting primaris. No things are 100% sure, but it looks to me as if GK are not getting primaris.

Does "these models" mean "any Primaris Marines at all" or "Intercessors, Inceptors, Reivers, Aggressors, etc."?

If I'm not supposed to look at the datasheet then my only basis for making any calls here is either four editions out of date or based on Matt Ward's ludicrous exaggerations about how every Grey Knight is a super badass who can kill Greater Daemons with his bare hands.

I don't know who Matt Ward is, but in the GK codex we have right now, to be come a GK paladin you have to go in to the chaos realm naked with no weapons and no armor, just the knowladge of the mystic arts and beat up a demon of every kind. So yeah GK are that good, their basic troops should be better then other marines heros,

Matt Ward is the guy who wrote the 5e Grey Knight book and decided that they should be "the mostest badassest of all the Spess Mahreens" rather than being a Space Marine Chapter specializing in fighting daemons. (Ironically that was also the book that nerfed them from WS5/A2/Ld9 to WS4/A1/Ld8.)

As for "beat up a daemon of every kind" read that as "beat up a Bloodletter, a Pink Horror, a Daemonette, and a Plaguebearer" rather than "beat up one of every unit in the Daemons Codex" and then convince me a Space Marine Librarian couldn't replicate the feat.

The Inquisition must, 800 Grey Knights don't float around through space waiting for daemonic incursions to happen, the Inquisition has them on speed-dial for when they need to purge something

It is very rare for a inquisitor to manage to get a group of GK under him. GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers, they know in advance where an important attack is going to happen, so brotherhoods or its parts can be send in advance, before the attack even happens.

Current Codexes are marketing material designed to sell their army as the most coolest thing ever in the entire setting. I tend to assume that when the GK book tells me that "GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers" I should treat that with a similar level of skepticism as that same book telling me that Kaldor Draigo once beat up Mortarion on his home ground in the Warp and cut bits out of his innards for the hell of it.


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Karol wrote:

Without looking at the datasheet the strength of the Grey Knights is not that they're all super-alpha-tier-world-destroying badasses, they're mid-tier talents individually weaker than most battle psykers who are made stronger by control and coordination.

The codex says that a fully trained and psycho conditioned GK is equal to a space marine librarian in power, but because the enemies GK face are so powerful in corruption and mystic abilities, GK limit their own power to use it as a defence more then an offence. Only the most senior of GK use their psychic powers in more offensive or support manner, and those take down Greater Demons and Demon Princes single handly. Something only the greatest heros of other marines can pull off. Making a random GK captin stronger and better then then almost all space marines. And when combined with a brotherhood channeling their power through them they are able to pull stuff off beating demonic incrusions with less then 100 men.

Because it's "The Grey Knight Codex". Read the Daemons Codex and it'll tell you that one Greater Daemon can wipe the floor with a hundred Grey Knights, read the Space Marine Codex and it'll tell you one Space Marine Librarian can beat any Grey Knight in a psychic duel.

When we're talking Grey Knight heroes compared to other Marine heroes yes, the Grey Knight is bigger and scarier. A Grey Knight is better trained and better equipped than another Space Marine of comparable role. Individual Strike Squad brethren, however, are not fluff-breaking epic superheroes capable of fighting Greater Daemons on their own.

Dude, seriously, read the fluff. GK are made through ordeals the likes of which even Bobby G has never faced.

And for "Greater daemon can wipe the floor..." Have you heard of Kaldor Draigo? He wanders through the warp wrecking greater daemons like hot cakes. He also beat a primarch and carved is name into his literal heart.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

Also, here is the fluff of GK beating greater daemons and avatars of actual chaos gods.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

Never trust the fluff to dictate the actual rules of the unit. The Codexes are propaganda to sell the minis in the best possible light.

Focus on how they should play on the table, relative to what would make them fun, enjoyable and most of all, balanced. Not fething demigods of mythology.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...Dude, seriously, read the fluff. GK are made through ordeals the likes of which even Bobby G has never faced.

And for "Greater daemon can wipe the floor..." Have you heard of Kaldor Draigo? He wanders through the warp wrecking greater daemons like hot cakes. He also beat a primarch and carved is name into his literal heart.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

Also, here is the fluff of GK beating greater daemons and avatars of actual chaos gods.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

Yeah. In his own book. In his own book U'zhul the Skulltaker (a Herald, not even a Greater Daemon) killed "several Grey Knights Brother-Captains" at Armageddon, a "single pack of Bloodcrushers" can topple Imperial Knights and lay waste to armies, and the Changeling can sabotage your character's gun before battle so it'll blow you up when you try and fire it.

I'm not saying the fluff should translate to the table, I'm saying the units on the table are BUILT around the idea of the fluff, and therefor cannot be re-done without fluff alterations.

The Daemon hunters of Ward are essentially a old box of mary-sue characters that had no business actually having rules. It's like Legion of the Damned. You can either make another middling SM army with sub par rules, or you can make a fluff accurate Legion of the damned that is broken as all hell.

GW took the first route with GK, and hasn't wanted to look back, because overcosted SM armies aren't fresh or exciting. GW has said now numerous times they are not re-inventing GK. This is how an army dies.

Dude, seriously, read the fluff. GK are made through ordeals the likes of which even Bobby G has never faced.

I read all the GK codexs, and what ever articles I could find online.

Because it's "The Grey Knight Codex". Read the Daemons Codex and it'll tell you that one Greater Daemon can wipe the floor with a hundred Grey Knights, read the Space Marine Codex and it'll tell you one Space Marine Librarian can beat any Grey Knight in a psychic duel.

Why should i trust the demon codex over the GK codex, when GW clearly favours one over the other. In the GK codex it litterly says that to become paladin a naked dude has to kill all kind of demons. Why should GK lie about their recruitment to themselfs?

Current Codexes are marketing material designed to sell their army as the most coolest thing ever in the entire setting. I tend to assume that when the GK book tells me that "GK have prognosticators that are better and more precise then eldar seers" I should treat that with a similar level of skepticism as that same book telling me that Kaldor Draigo once beat up Mortarion on his home ground in the Warp and cut bits out of his innards for the hell of it.

If they did not have them. The chapter and how it works would make no sense at all. They would be coming after they get informed about an invasion of demons, and that is assuming someone did manage to send an info through the warp. They would be coming 2-3 years after they were needed, which kind of a means GK would be demon hunters for the terran sector. 3 years is enough time to turn a hive world to a gigantic sacrificial altar, feed all the demons, and either turn the planet in to a demon world or leave it as dead as if tyranids munched on it. GK way of operating only makes sense, if they know where attacks going to happen in advance, and they have to be sure about it, because there is no gak button that can suddenly teleports you to the other side of the galaxy in case the seer mixed up north with south.
Plus it is in their codex. They would lie to themselfs that they are being sent on a mission. Wouldn't after 10k years of operating someone GK kind of a notice that they are droping in places where there may never even be planets anymore ?

As for "beat up a daemon of every kind" read that as "beat up a Bloodletter, a Pink Horror, a Daemonette, and a Plaguebearer" rather than "beat up one of every unit in the Daemons Codex" and then convince me a Space Marine Librarian couldn't replicate the feat.

I read stuff the way it is writen. every kind is every kind.

I've said it before in a different thread. In the book The Emperor's Gift it is stated that Grey Knights go through 50 years of training before given a set of power armor...let that sink in, 50 years...on average, how many Space Marines die before they're 50 years old?


Another bit of GK fluff to throw on the fire:

Back when GK Brother-Captains only had 1, repeat ONE, Wound (4th edition I think) & 3 Attacks, Ultramarines Captain Uriel Ventris (3W & 3A) & his Veteran Sergeant Pasanius (1W & 2A) had to duel a GK Brother-Captain to prove they weren't corrupted by the time they spent in the Eye of Terror.

This one-wound Brother Captain easily beat Ventris (seemingly GW's heir to Calgar himself at the time) and Pasanius in unarmed, melee combat.

They need better rules.

Points reductions only go so far, I mean what, turn GKs into a horde army??? I don't think so.

Problem is the codex would need a complete rework, GW don't like doing that.

So basically I think nothing will happen. Another thing, I cannot see GW moving to 9th anytime soon, 8th has been a good success for them.