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Which is the more dangerous daemon weapon? Discuss...

Tough to say. I mean dangerous in the sense that one can go loose? The Blade seems more insidious than Drachn'yen given that it outright possesses whomever uses it in any way (as in tap into its power) and that they need so many countermeasures to keep it held at bay. It certainly can't be destroyed by conventional means, nor through sorcery, at least that available to the Imperium. Its danger seems more based around its domination over others rather than raw power from what I've seen.

Drachn'yen on the other hand seems to be able to be wielded by Abbadon, though its unclear on whether it is through a bargain made by Abbadon with it or if its Abbadon's sheer will in making it submit. In any case, with MoM in the HH series, Drachn'yen is one of the few things that gives the Emperor pause in his murderfest so it's probably more dangerous as far as raw power goes, but doesn't have the same implications on a larger scale that the Blade does.

So on a galaxy wide scale? The Blade. On a 1v1 scenario? Drachn'yen.

What is The Blade of Antwyr? I haven’t heard of it.

One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

pm713 wrote:
One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

Castellan Crowe. The commander and Brotherhood champion of Purifiers. In fluff he is most strong willed person even among GK. So that possibly means that He is the living man in the whole Imperium that can most likely to resist the temptation of Daemon.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

Castellan Crowe. The commander and Brotherhood champion of Purifiers. In fluff he is most strong willed person even among GK. So that possibly means that He is the living man in the whole Imperium that can most likely to resist the temptation of Daemon.

Know what's even better than that? A box left floating in space. Way better than routinely dangling it in front of Chaos...

pm713 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

Castellan Crowe. The commander and Brotherhood champion of Purifiers. In fluff he is most strong willed person even among GK. So that possibly means that He is the living man in the whole Imperium that can most likely to resist the temptation of Daemon.

Know what's even better than that? A box left floating in space. Way better than routinely dangling it in front of Chaos...

But it would be found eventually. Like the Ring of Power in LotR. It somehow lures unwitting bearers to itself. And leaving it locked-up in a Guarded vault wouldn't work either, because it could corrupt the Guard, unless that guard is someone like Crowe.

But this is also 40K, so having one for the most bad@$$ characters just sitting guarding a sword for all eternity is boring and would never be allowed by GW.

OT, it would be interesting to see Abaddon and Crowe face off and make mentions about each others weapons. I could see Abaddon recognize the Blade and toy with Crowe for not using its power.

-

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

Castellan Crowe. The commander and Brotherhood champion of Purifiers. In fluff he is most strong willed person even among GK. So that possibly means that He is the living man in the whole Imperium that can most likely to resist the temptation of Daemon.

Know what's even better than that? A box left floating in space. Way better than routinely dangling it in front of Chaos...

But it would be found eventually. Like the Ring of Power in LotR. It somehow lures unwitting bearers to itself. And leaving it locked-up in a Guarded vault wouldn't work either, because it could corrupt the Guard, unless that guard is someone like Crowe.

But this is also 40K, so having one for the most bad@$$ characters just sitting guarding a sword for all eternity is boring and would never be allowed by GW.

OT, it would be interesting to see Abaddon and Crowe face off and make mentions about each others weapons. I could see Abaddon recognize the Blade and toy with Crowe for not using its power.

-

You could also use that to show a Grey Knight actually being tempted. It's boring they're immune to Chaos just because. It's far better they're immune to Chaos because they were trained for it.

The Ring of Power is stuck on a single landmass. With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

In one of the Castellan Crowe novels the blade is shown being a temptation. One of the tests that Crowe undergoes is being invited into the same room as the blade's then-current keeper and not being immediately tempted by it. Kind of suggests that by inference there are Grey Knights that would be tempted, if not giving in right away. In Master of Mankind Drac'nyen notes that while the Custodes are corruptible, it would take so long as to not be worth even trying. So the Custodes and Grey Knights don't need to be incorruptible, just extraordinarily inconvenient to corrupt.

It's also noted that dropping the Blade of Antwyr into a star isn't going to prevent its danger, so the notion of leaving in some dead space in a psychic-deadening box, possibly the first idea any Grey Knight would have regarding a chaos artefact isn't terribly germaine.

Something I enjoyed about Mat Ward's Grey Knights codex was the way it went to show how the Grey Knights were both Humanity's last weapon against Chaos and neck-deep in it (sometimes literally...). It seemed suitably grim-dark that they were hypocrites about the use of sorcery like the 1000 Sons were, and also blissfully unaware of how they were being corrupted, like how Inquisitors gradually become radicals. Of course, the actual execution left something to be desired since the book didn't adequately communicate those notions, as the fan reaction to it has shown, but my writing isn't perfect either for some reason.

Well to be fair it would be absurdly hard to obtain the Blade if it were thrown into a star. It wouldn't be a problem as long as it stayed there.

Sure, but where it's suggested that isn't an option because it wouldn't stay there, it's perhaps more interesting to entertain the notion that maybe the Blade is just that incredibly un-natural and malevolent.

Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

This reminds me of those discussions where someone asks why Gandalf didn't just ride the eagles to Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom and call it a day.

pm713 wrote:
With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

Except you're assuming that (a) your box holds - when even the strongest psy-warded cells have been shown to 'leak' (Khangba Marwu in Outcast Dead) to a sufficiently gifted and subtle psyker, and (b) that no outside entity (e.g. Tzeench itself) 'arranges' to have the box found after your ship leaves.

Actually taking the Blade onto a battlefield is kind of stupid, but I get why just throwing it away might not work.

Interesting side point. In the 40k setting are there black holes as we describe them today? Or are they just warp rifts?

Sagittarius a* might have something to say to Antwyr, but it might just be "welcome home"

Or feed it to the Tyranids...

 Flinty wrote:

Or feed it to the Tyranids...

They'd probably leave it behind on the ball of rock- Tyranids have been known to avoid overly Chaos-tainted stuff. They even destroyed a hive ship that started feeding from a heavily-tainted Plague world and abandoned the biomass

pm713 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
One of the Grey Knights carries it because it's apparently way too dangerous to just hide somewhere for some reason. So of course carrying it into battle and being in constant temptation is a better solution.

Castellan Crowe. The commander and Brotherhood champion of Purifiers. In fluff he is most strong willed person even among GK. So that possibly means that He is the living man in the whole Imperium that can most likely to resist the temptation of Daemon.

Know what's even better than that? A box left floating in space. Way better than routinely dangling it in front of Chaos...

But it would be found eventually. Like the Ring of Power in LotR. It somehow lures unwitting bearers to itself. And leaving it locked-up in a Guarded vault wouldn't work either, because it could corrupt the Guard, unless that guard is someone like Crowe.

But this is also 40K, so having one for the most bad@$$ characters just sitting guarding a sword for all eternity is boring and would never be allowed by GW.

OT, it would be interesting to see Abaddon and Crowe face off and make mentions about each others weapons. I could see Abaddon recognize the Blade and toy with Crowe for not using its power.

-

You could also use that to show a Grey Knight actually being tempted. It's boring they're immune to Chaos just because. It's far better they're immune to Chaos because they were trained for it.

The Ring of Power is stuck on a single landmass. With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

You sure you wanna just further rip off the Sword of Kahless with this?

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

You can't really say they haven't already tried that. A random bit of space can still be traveled through. You'd basically have to guarantee:
1. Nobody will travel there
2. There's such a warning that someone will be too cautious to open the box
3. No foul xenos will open the box
4. Tzeentch doesn't do anything to make someone come across it

How can you really prevent all those things?

locarno24 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

Except you're assuming that (a) your box holds - when even the strongest psy-warded cells have been shown to 'leak' (Khangba Marwu in Outcast Dead) to a sufficiently gifted and subtle psyker, and (b) that no outside entity (e.g. Tzeench itself) 'arranges' to have the box found after your ship leaves.

Actually taking the Blade onto a battlefield is kind of stupid, but I get why just throwing it away might not work.

It depends on how much leaking there is. If you're looking for the equal of 1 degree celsius of heat you aren't going to find it. Plus that requires Tzeentch actually finding out which it can't do if you arrange for the crew to have a series of accidents.
But I'll admit the leaking is news to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

You can't really say they haven't already tried that. A random bit of space can still be traveled through. You'd basically have to guarantee:
1. Nobody will travel there
2. There's such a warning that someone will be too cautious to open the box
3. No foul xenos will open the box
4. Tzeentch doesn't do anything to make someone come across it

How can you really prevent all those things?

You can't guarantee it but at the end of the day space is HUGE. There's a lot of empty space there and the box is the size of a sword. That's like finding a needle in a haystack inside several other large haystacks. By putting it in a random bit of empty space you can guarantee nobody from the Imperium finds it, almost all Xenos also avoid it by virtue of how space travel works in 40k and Tzeentch isn't all knowing. You could also go full paranoid and stick it outside the galaxy where nobody will find it except Tyranids who don't actually want Chaos artifacts.

pm713 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

Except you're assuming that (a) your box holds - when even the strongest psy-warded cells have been shown to 'leak' (Khangba Marwu in Outcast Dead) to a sufficiently gifted and subtle psyker, and (b) that no outside entity (e.g. Tzeench itself) 'arranges' to have the box found after your ship leaves.

Actually taking the Blade onto a battlefield is kind of stupid, but I get why just throwing it away might not work.

It depends on how much leaking there is. If you're looking for the equal of 1 degree celsius of heat you aren't going to find it. Plus that requires Tzeentch actually finding out which it can't do if you arrange for the crew to have a series of accidents.
But I'll admit the leaking is news to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

You can't really say they haven't already tried that. A random bit of space can still be traveled through. You'd basically have to guarantee:
1. Nobody will travel there
2. There's such a warning that someone will be too cautious to open the box
3. No foul xenos will open the box
4. Tzeentch doesn't do anything to make someone come across it

How can you really prevent all those things?

You can't guarantee it but at the end of the day space is HUGE. There's a lot of empty space there and the box is the size of a sword. That's like finding a needle in a haystack inside several other large haystacks. By putting it in a random bit of empty space you can guarantee nobody from the Imperium finds it, almost all Xenos also avoid it by virtue of how space travel works in 40k and Tzeentch isn't all knowing. You could also go full paranoid and stick it outside the galaxy where nobody will find it except Tyranids who don't actually want Chaos artifacts.

Tzeentch is always watching and manipulating, he wouldn't need the crew to find it.
It's likely being taken exactly where he wants it to be taken.

Just about anything that's lost can be found (except vehicle patterns apparently lol)
While taking it into battle is stupid, it's still a far better idea than leaving it somewhere.

The GKs are ten thousand years old by this point. There is a good chance they already tried this in the 33rd millennium or something, and thought it wouldn't turn up again this aeon.

Next thing they know, it has reappeared a thousand years later in the hands of some Chaos champion following a suspiciously implausible chain of events...

So blam! Has to be kept under permanent watch by the Grey Knights.

Jackal90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

Except you're assuming that (a) your box holds - when even the strongest psy-warded cells have been shown to 'leak' (Khangba Marwu in Outcast Dead) to a sufficiently gifted and subtle psyker, and (b) that no outside entity (e.g. Tzeench itself) 'arranges' to have the box found after your ship leaves.

Actually taking the Blade onto a battlefield is kind of stupid, but I get why just throwing it away might not work.

It depends on how much leaking there is. If you're looking for the equal of 1 degree celsius of heat you aren't going to find it. Plus that requires Tzeentch actually finding out which it can't do if you arrange for the crew to have a series of accidents.
But I'll admit the leaking is news to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

You can't really say they haven't already tried that. A random bit of space can still be traveled through. You'd basically have to guarantee:
1. Nobody will travel there
2. There's such a warning that someone will be too cautious to open the box
3. No foul xenos will open the box
4. Tzeentch doesn't do anything to make someone come across it

How can you really prevent all those things?

You can't guarantee it but at the end of the day space is HUGE. There's a lot of empty space there and the box is the size of a sword. That's like finding a needle in a haystack inside several other large haystacks. By putting it in a random bit of empty space you can guarantee nobody from the Imperium finds it, almost all Xenos also avoid it by virtue of how space travel works in 40k and Tzeentch isn't all knowing. You could also go full paranoid and stick it outside the galaxy where nobody will find it except Tyranids who don't actually want Chaos artifacts.

Tzeentch is always watching and manipulating, he wouldn't need the crew to find it.
It's likely being taken exactly where he wants it to be taken.

Just about anything that's lost can be found (except vehicle patterns apparently lol)
While taking it into battle is stupid, it's still a far better idea than leaving it somewhere.

That's not really true. If Tzeentch knew everything he wouldn't need Kairos and I think that's overstating his manipulations a bit.

Leaving it in space has it light years away from anybody, where demons cannot touch it, is far better than literally holding it in front of them where a single stray bullet can make the blade drop. If Tzeentch really has the manipulation to have the sword hidden wherever he wanted then he can kill anyone holding it even easier.
Now I think of it though an even better plan would be giving it to the Eldar White Seers. That's actually a better plan for almost everything the Grey Knights store...

pm713 wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
With the Blade you can put it into a box made of anti-psychic materials, drop it in a random bit of space and leave it. There's almost no chance of it being found by chance, it can't tempt anyone and nobody can find out by asking the crew because it's 40k and the crew are going to die afterwards. But like Fateweaver the logical solution is very boring so it's better to do the silly thing.

Except you're assuming that (a) your box holds - when even the strongest psy-warded cells have been shown to 'leak' (Khangba Marwu in Outcast Dead) to a sufficiently gifted and subtle psyker, and (b) that no outside entity (e.g. Tzeench itself) 'arranges' to have the box found after your ship leaves.

Actually taking the Blade onto a battlefield is kind of stupid, but I get why just throwing it away might not work.

It depends on how much leaking there is. If you're looking for the equal of 1 degree celsius of heat you aren't going to find it. Plus that requires Tzeentch actually finding out which it can't do if you arrange for the crew to have a series of accidents.
But I'll admit the leaking is news to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to hammer the same idea but with a star there's something the blade can mess up. But drifting in empty space there's nothing to do.

in a star, even in empty space, I can think of things a creative writer could have an evil chaos sword do

Not in the anti-psychic box it can't. But then you just have a really boring story.

The sword was angry in its box, floating in space, but it couldn't do anything so it just drifted until the universe ended. The end.

You can't really say they haven't already tried that. A random bit of space can still be traveled through. You'd basically have to guarantee:
1. Nobody will travel there
2. There's such a warning that someone will be too cautious to open the box
3. No foul xenos will open the box
4. Tzeentch doesn't do anything to make someone come across it

How can you really prevent all those things?

You can't guarantee it but at the end of the day space is HUGE. There's a lot of empty space there and the box is the size of a sword. That's like finding a needle in a haystack inside several other large haystacks. By putting it in a random bit of empty space you can guarantee nobody from the Imperium finds it, almost all Xenos also avoid it by virtue of how space travel works in 40k and Tzeentch isn't all knowing. You could also go full paranoid and stick it outside the galaxy where nobody will find it except Tyranids who don't actually want Chaos artifacts.

Tzeentch is always watching and manipulating, he wouldn't need the crew to find it.
It's likely being taken exactly where he wants it to be taken.

Just about anything that's lost can be found (except vehicle patterns apparently lol)
While taking it into battle is stupid, it's still a far better idea than leaving it somewhere.

That's not really true. If Tzeentch knew everything he wouldn't need Kairos and I think that's overstating his manipulations a bit.

Leaving it in space has it light years away from anybody, where demons cannot touch it, is far better than literally holding it in front of them where a single stray bullet can make the blade drop. If Tzeentch really has the manipulation to have the sword hidden wherever he wanted then he can kill anyone holding it even easier.
Now I think of it though an even better plan would be giving it to the Eldar White Seers. That's actually a better plan for almost everything the Grey Knights store...

The Emperor protects!

Nope. Not buying the "Space is Huge" bunk. Space is relative is more like it. Distance is only a 3 dimensional concept.

Warp entities do not have to see things on our terms and a vast expanse of endless nothing in our universe could be a tiny, easily scoured area in the Warp

Putting it in a box, unguarded, far away from anywhere is basically just giving it to the forces of Chaos. If they want it, they will find it or direct feable mortals to find it.
But, yeah, giving it to Eldar to store in the Black Library wouldn't be a bad idea. But GKs don't really trust those pointy ears

-

How about another suggestion...
Give it to the Necrons maybe Trayzyn the Collector^^.

They have the technology to destroy it or to keep it locked away for eternity without any chance of causing harm.

They have the technology to destroy it or to keep it locked away for eternity without any chance of causing harm.

again - assumed, and not necessarily true. The Imperium has stasis tech, so if all that was required was that, it wouldn't have been a problem, and warp corruption has 'broken' tomb worlds before.

It depends on how much leaking there is. If you're looking for the equal of 1 degree celsius of heat you aren't going to find it. Plus that requires Tzeentch actually finding out which it can't do if you arrange for the crew to have a series of accidents.
But I'll admit the leaking is news to me.

Taking two examples of supposedly 'psychic proof' stuff:

Khangba Marwu is/was a custodes prison with psy-shielded cells. The thousand son Atharva was able to telepathically manipulate one of the (non-custodes!) wardens into releasing him despite the cell barriers still being in effect. It cost him, but he was able to do it.

A Culexus assassin attempting to kill Aphrael Stern - who isn't a psyker but is something close - overloaded and basically burnt out and exploded when she stopped holding back and let him try to use his soul-drain ability freely.

Manous wrote:
How about another suggestion...
Give it to the Necrons maybe Trayzyn the Collector^^.

They have the technology to destroy it or to keep it locked away for eternity without any chance of causing harm.

tell you what, you go and suggest to the Imperium they give that evil chaos blade to a xenos, I'll just be standing well away from you so your brains don't splatter on my shirt when they blam you for ehresy

BrianDavion wrote:

Manous wrote:
How about another suggestion...
Give it to the Necrons maybe Trayzyn the Collector^^.

They have the technology to destroy it or to keep it locked away for eternity without any chance of causing harm.

tell you what, you go and suggest to the Imperium they give that evil chaos blade to a xenos, I'll just be standing well away from you so your brains don't splatter on my shirt when they blam you for ehresy

Not to mention even Trazyn's failsafes aren't foolproof, if I remember correctly, half of the reason why he went to Cadia was that a bell in his collection (despite being held in stasis) started going off that sent shockwaves throughout his museum that broke countless other artefacts and affected even the systems and guardians set in place there. So with something as insidious as the blade, it's possible that Trazyn might consider it more trouble than its worth.