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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Just something I was thinking about, obviously not tournament friendly, but I use my Grey Knights vs my Tyranid army when I play with my son/brother etc.

We do stick to the matched play rules but...

As has been commented over and over the Grey Knights are not in a good place, which is evident as they get trashed by my Tyranid army, which got me thinking...

Would a points handy cap make it more even, and if so, what would be about the right amounts of points?

We play 2000 points, so say if Grey Knights could have 2250 vs 2000? or even 2500 vs 2000?

I am tempted to try this out and see what happens, and see if the games become more even.

But I would like to hear what people think, or if this is something they have already tried? Or any other "custom rules tweak" you make to try and even it out a bit for Grey Knights?

2000 pts
2000 pts
2000 pts 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Let the army with all teleportation deepstrike have gladius decurion formation to unlock free rhino and razorback transports for their troops...

In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Give all GK Marines ''aegis armor'' to be hit by -1.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Across the Rubicon

The only way to know is to play a game with those points levels and talk about it afterwards. Then you can make adjustments up and down as you see fit. I would start small (no more that 10%) and further refine it with additional games.

I am actually a big fan of gaming groups that play the same people with little new blood having a variable points limits. I like the idea of each loss allows the player more points in the re-match. Something like 5% extra points for a minor loss and 10% extra points for a major defeat with similar wins removing the same percentage of points.

The general idea is to even out each player's army and skill to allow for the closest games possible (which is my goal). It also has the added benefit that no one in the group remains absolutely undefeated (and gets bored) and no one ever wins a game (and gets frustrated).

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




100pts doesn't add much you can take to a grey knight army. It is less then what unit of 5 strikes cost costs. It could be a naked apothecary or ancient, but without the thunder hammer they are a lot worse.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Karol wrote:
100pts doesn't add much you can take to a grey knight army. It is less then what unit of 5 strikes cost costs. It could be a naked apothecary or ancient, but without the thunder hammer they are a lot worse.


To be fair, this assumes that the list is already neat. If for example the GK player has a ~1920pt list and then had to just shove in some less-useful stuff to make up the remaining 80pts, he'll now have 180pts to work with.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The only way to know is to play a game with those points levels and talk about it afterwards. Then you can make adjustments up and down as you see fit. I would start small (no more that 10%) and further refine it with additional games.


The problem with this is how swingy 40k is. Basing it on your own games it would be extremely difficult to draw many conclusions about balance due to how much of an impact a few key dice rolls can make. Especially when you're talking as small as adding 5% onto the list.
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

They are overpriced, yes. But the problem goes deeper than that. They are a melee army in a shooting game. Give their storm bolters Psychic Ammunition, (+1 Str, -1 AP). And how about Grand Masters allow rerolls of 1s on psychic tests for units within 6".

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 casvalremdeikun wrote:
They are overpriced, yes. But the problem goes deeper than that. They are a melee army in a shooting game. Give their storm bolters Psychic Ammunition, (+1 Str, -1 AP). And how about Grand Masters allow rerolls of 1s on psychic tests for units within 6".


Agreed. There's loads of possible ways to fix them (strat to allow some units to deep strike turn 1..? Could be a fairly unique thing to define the army). But points are at best a bandaid. There's only so cheap you can make a marine with a stormbolter and force sword before you start impacting other armies negatively, and they're probably still not that good.

But this is nothing new really, every GK player has been saying it for getting on 2 years now.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

One problem is that GK are equipped for both shooting and cc.
If they had chain swords in the first place besides the storm bolters, they would have been cheaper.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
Karol wrote:
100pts doesn't add much you can take to a grey knight army. It is less then what unit of 5 strikes cost costs. It could be a naked apothecary or ancient, but without the thunder hammer they are a lot worse.


To be fair, this assumes that the list is already neat. If for example the GK player has a ~1920pt list and then had to just shove in some less-useful stuff to make up the remaining 80pts, he'll now have 180pts to work with.


I don't think someone with free 180pts would take a GK unit though, why not just take two assasins one on board and one in kinder suprise form. But in the end I don't think it matters much. I played games where my opponents forgot they had units and reserved and kicked my butt with around 1700 pts of castellan and IG.

I don't know what GW were thinking when they design GK rules. People say they are a melee army, well for a melee army they are very high point, not resilient with few attacks, and super low speed. They don't even have fly or jetbikes of some sorts. GK do pay a lot of points for being able to cast, in theory, a lot of psychic powers, but in reality there are like 3 used and the rest is baby smites. So unlike 1ksons, they don't seem to be a magic army. Maybe they were never suppose to be, but then why overburden units with psychic powers they won't use in the first place? Why not just limit psychic powers to paladins and characters, maybe purfires and dreads, and drop the cost of everything else. GK do have stormbolters, and if they were cheaper, they maybe could deal with horde stuff. But because they are not cheap, they are in a strange place where they are good vs elite armies with low saves, that move just as slow and don't run stuff that requires the use of guns better then stormbolters.
Which right now I think would be limited to melee Inari and necron builds.

Even GW artiles make no sense. They write stuff about powerful psychic powers, turn one deep strike etc but GK can not do any of those things, this edition. I don't know maybe the rules would have been good for 7th ed, maybe they had a ready codex that just didn't fit in to 7th ed, so they forced it in with few alteration in to 8th.
I also don't know what could for sure fix GK. I have ideas about stuff that could make them better, but better doesn't mean good for GK or for the game.
In the end it requires people smarter then me to fix stuff, and I hope that GW sooner or later will hire those people. I mean people are saying they are making a ton of extra cash with AoS and 8th ed, so maybe they can invest some of it to hire onde person who would design new GK rules.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Who knows, maybe like CSM got a "second" codex, may GK will get the same, but rather than little add-ons a complete re-work?

I mean, my Tyranid army isn't even a "gamey" list, its pretty average, but look all the extra rules and abilities you need to learn for them, then you look at the GK's and you are like, "is that it?"

I know a points cost handicap isnt perfect but I do, in the short term, think it might be an easy way of evening things out.

2000 pts
2000 pts
2000 pts 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Karol wrote:

I don't think someone with free 180pts would take a GK unit though, why not just take two assasins one on board and one in kinder suprise form. But in the end I don't think it matters much. I played games where my opponents forgot they had units and reserved and kicked my butt with around 1700 pts of castellan and IG.


I mean, in fairness, Castellen was completely ridiculous (especially when backed up with cheap CPs from IG). I'm sure far better armies than GKs have lost to that combination.


Karol wrote:

I don't know what GW were thinking when they design GK rules. People say they are a melee army, well for a melee army they are very high point, not resilient with few attacks, and super low speed. They don't even have fly or jetbikes of some sorts. GK do pay a lot of points for being able to cast, in theory, a lot of psychic powers, but in reality there are like 3 used and the rest is baby smites. So unlike 1ksons, they don't seem to be a magic army. Maybe they were never suppose to be, but then why overburden units with psychic powers they won't use in the first place? Why not just limit psychic powers to paladins and characters, maybe purfires and dreads, and drop the cost of everything else. GK do have stormbolters, and if they were cheaper, they maybe could deal with horde stuff. But because they are not cheap, they are in a strange place where they are good vs elite armies with low saves, that move just as slow and don't run stuff that requires the use of guns better then stormbolters.
Which right now I think would be limited to melee Inari and necron builds.


I think scaling back GK gear to get costs down would be a good start. e.g. if basic GKs are going to have one attack apiece, then they probably don't all need Force Weapons.

Likewise, as you say, not every squad needs to be a caster.

I think Psybolt ammunition should be an actual upgrade again, not just a Stratagem.


Karol wrote:

Even GW artiles make no sense. They write stuff about powerful psychic powers, turn one deep strike etc but GK can not do any of those things, this edition. I don't know maybe the rules would have been good for 7th ed, maybe they had a ready codex that just didn't fit in to 7th ed, so they forced it in with few alteration in to 8th.


I heard recently that one of the GW playtesters had been praising the number of SoB units that don't take up detachment slots, as though this was a benefit and not a huge detriment (as it makes Brigades and such a massive pain to fill). DE are in that boat as well.

Put simply, GW still has no clue how its own game works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 22:15:54


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit



Ottawa

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
They are overpriced, yes. But the problem goes deeper than that. They are a melee army in a shooting game. Give their storm bolters Psychic Ammunition, (+1 Str, -1 AP). And how about Grand Masters allow rerolls of 1s on psychic tests for units within 6".


I think the army needs a selection of specific, low effect powers in a separate discipline that is carried by the rank and file units only. They can be cast any number of times, even in matched play. Something like Hammerhand, Psybolt becoming a power, and something to give a defensive bonus to the unit, but they only affect that unit.

And also the ability to fire their storm bolters in combat like pistols.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Maybe keep the points the same but reduce the CP cost of some strategems?

From what I understand some GK strategems are ridiculously overpriced for equivalent in other armies.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in de
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Hamburg

Well, one basic problem is that GK has been the first codex in the 8th ed.
No idea why GW has brought GK into the pole position?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
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Denison, Iowa

I think that some of the GK stratagems like Psybolt ammo should either be able to be used multiple times (at 1CP) or, be 0 CP. Casting a Stratagem for zero CP, but being limited to once a turn seems fair for what it does.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, one basic problem is that GK has been the first codex in the 8th ed.
No idea why GW has brought GK into the pole position?


No model releases, so easy to crank out first and then forget?

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




But why would they do that. If they knew they had no new models, and that they wouldn't be able to give the old models good rules, although am not sure how those are linked as eldar have old models and good rules, then they just should have waited with the GK codex. The index wasn't much different, so people would not have to buy two box back to back on top of normal rules. Bad rules don't sell many models.
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

To the OP:
Yes, a handicap can definitely work to help balance games between frequent opponents.

I have done this by giving myself fewer points in games. I’d suggest a 10% advantage. +/- 5% for a win / loss until you’re bouncing back and forth... then split the difference and try that for a few games.

No reworking units, just adding more to compensate.That way the units work as designed, but you have more units to work with.
   
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Hamburg

 JohnnyHell wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, one basic problem is that GK has been the first codex in the 8th ed.
No idea why GW has brought GK into the pole position?


No model releases, so easy to crank out first and then forget?

Could be the case.
Who knows the GW release policy?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
T
No reworking units, just adding more to compensate.That way the units work as designed, but you have more units to work with.

The problem is, based on what GW own article tell us how they think GK should be played, there were designed with first turn deep strike of a lot of the army in mind. And I don't think, unless am wrong , GW ever said how many points does it cost to take a GK from deep striking turn 1 to not deep striking.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Try an easy fix first, align the GK codex to the more modern psy focused codici.

Allow grey knights psykers to select powers both from the GK discipline and from the astarted discipline. This will give them a good edge, probably more than what 150 points more of army could. It is easy, fluffy, doesn't require additional models (and time) and is the most likely buff that they will receive in a future codex.

Since GK do actually have some teeth in assault, they can make better use of the astartes discipline than their vanilla cousins.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/20 09:44:13


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

I feel like upping the power is better than giving free points; the grey knights are meant to be rare elites, not massed troops. Improving access to aegis armour feels a fluffy way to accomplish this.

Perhaps you can give the Knights a 'loyal 32' formation or two for free to buoy out numbers and help with objectives/cp.... Someone had to call the GhostBusters in, right?!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/20 10:30:21


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





I've had great success with marine-ifying marines by giving them the following upgrade:

Transhuman Physiology: All infantry, biker, and Jump Pack infantry must be upgraded with the following.

3pts - the model gains +1W, +1A, and reduces the AP of any incoming attacks by 1 to a minimum of 0.

All Infantry, Jump Pack or Biker CHARACTERS instead gain the following upgrade

5pts - The model reduces the AP of any incoming attacks by 1 to a minimum of 0.

The extra defenses really make the basic bolter boys much more durabile and the +1A is definitely something that GK need. Terminators and Bikers moving up to 3W makes them a much more attractive addition to your army.

Your marines will be more elite because they will cost more, but I have definitely found they feel much better to play. I've tested this rule with standard ultramarines, salamanders, space wolves, thousand sons and deathwatch so far (either playing them myself or giving the upgrade to my opponent) and so far I've had a ton of good, close games.
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






 wuestenfux wrote:
Give all GK Marines ''aegis armor'' to be hit by -1.


GK used to have something like this called the Shrouding, so it would be quite fitting with the army. In a way it's mystifying that GW haven't thought to add something like this to GK as a band-aid fix when they've been systematically gutting core aspects of how the army was supposed to play when the codex was written (psychic focus for spells other than smite, repeated deep strike nerfs, etc).

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




nareik wrote:
I feel like upping the power is better than giving free points; the grey knights are meant to be rare elites, not massed troops. Improving access to aegis armour feels a fluffy way to accomplish this.

Perhaps you can give the Knights a 'loyal 32' formation or two for free to buoy out numbers and help with objectives/cp.... Someone had to call the GhostBusters in, right?!

Ok, but then we are playing IG and picking one of the worse ally for them, as spending points on everything else then GK will give a better return. I get the elite thing, even if having fewer models scales bad in w40k, but an army can't be elite, weak on the offense and defense at the same time.
Custodes for examples or BA, have a few good offensive units, or scouts , or speed . A GK paladin even with 4 wounds is not going to live long in a game where the good armies were made to kill a high t ++3inv multi wound monster. And that is paladins the best of the best. A GK strike is worse then a tactical or sob. Two sob are more efficient as far as points to shots go then GK.
   
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






This topic is so played out and exhausting. It's painful to see it brought up so repetitiously.

I had a rather lengthy and well worded response, but I deleted it all because I know all to well that this conversation will go no where productive. Everyone who ends up participating in the revolving door of the "Grey Knights Sux!" discussion is sadly too firm on their opinion.

Grey Knights are fine and are actually quite strong when playing Warhammer 40,000 and not the ITC and Nova nonsense that masquerades itself as W40K.

   
Made in us
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Eye of Terror

My Grey Knights have played in handicap matches.

Sadly, I don't think the problem lies in the cost so much as mechanics, GK are just ill suited to being an 8th edition standalone army. They are not as hopeless as many would make them seem, but they only excel in certain scenarios and unorthodox builds that are not common to the game.

If you really think a points handicap will make a difference, ask yourself what you get for the points. 250 points is almost enough for a well equipped Stormraven or maybe a 5-man Paladin squad. I guess you could also load up on cheap Strikes or Terminators with the points.

Regardless of what you take with the extra points, these units are only going to do what they can do. With few exceptions, they shoot with bolters, they save like Marines, and they rely on smite and AP -3 combat to get the job done. That makes them a mid-range assault army.

Think about how the best mid-range assault armies work - Orks, Daemons and certain Eldar / Drukhari builds, for example - and consider how Grey Knights compare. They don't have anything like Da Jump to get huge mobs into combat. They don't have anything like Banner of Blood to make sure their charges work, or any special mechanics related to unit size. They don't have anything like Disintegrator cannons to take out hard targets. Most importantly, since each model costs more than a standard Marine, they don't have weight of numbers.

There's just not enough going for them to support their fighting style compared to other armies. Extra points don't do much to change that.

That said, a Grey Knights list recently won a 64-player tournament in Australia, I wrote about it here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355634-mono-grey-knights-won-briscon-2019/

When you look at the list and listen to the video describing their games, you find this list is a little weird. The list has few command points and only consists of a Spearhead and Vanguard detachment. The huge Paladin squad carries a couple Warding Staves to tank wounds, it's like a death star with limited offensive output. The Land Raiders are their anti-tank, but they mostly get in the way of enemy units from game to game. The Purgation Squad carries no heavy weapons, it's really just a Strike Squad meant to fill out a detachment.

This list doesn't actually do a whole lot on offense, it's just a bunch of tough models that stop opponents from grabbing objectives. It was designed around the scenarios for the tournament and the specific meta the player was facing. He faced some tough lists that were not equipped to take him on.

The last 2 games I played, I tried something similar to see how it works. The core was Voldus, a Brother Captain, 2 Apothecaries, the Paladins and 3x Assassins, all massed up together in the middle of the board. In games against Tyranids and Guard, the PaladinStar itself did some good things despite the fact each game got away from me. Versus Tyranids, it stood up to charges from 2 squads of 20 Genestealers and a Carnifex. Versus Guard, it ate through a gunline and tied up some tanks through the end of the game.

The scenario for each game was Hammer and Anvil. If the scenario was something else, where my opponent had to get through me to take objectives, it may have lead to different outcomes. I didn't have many command points (5 total) but the ones I had were purely used for rerolls.

Sorry for the long post. The point is, for Grey Knights, focusing on the mission and building your list around it provides a greater advantage than a handicap.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Pretty much the only thing the armies needs
Strike squads down to 17 points.
All terminators drop 5 points.
Psi bolt/ equivalent stratagems down to 1 CP
and OFC - the whole army gets access to full(real) smite.

These changes alone would make them playable instantly.

To make them good-

A few of the GK powers just need to get straight up better -
-Sanctuary = +1 save (including Invun) AURA 6"

-Vortex of doom becomes a targetable spell.

+ remove the stupid Daemon stratagem that makes you auto win vs GK.



If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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