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So, I'm curious what all is needed as far as models and weapons (main and support) to create the Blood Angels Smash Captain? Is it only Blood Angels that can really make use of the Smash Captain? Can other chapters make something equivalent or close? Are Smash Captains even still worth running?

Thanks

SG

A smash captain is basically just a SM Captain with a Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Most SM chapters can make them and I think there's a very good one you can make from the Space Marine Codex.

The advantages the BA captain have are access to the Death Company pre-game stratagem, which gives an extra attack on the charge and access to a +D3 attacks stratagem, a relic JP that prevents Overwatch and a couple of stratagems that make redeploying/deploying and charging easier, alongside Lemartes for charge rerolls, +1 to wound as a chapter trait and a warlord trait for extra damage. Additionally, BA have a relic Thunder Hammer that allows them to make 2 very effective smash captains - one with the JP, one with the TH.

Those stacked free buffs make a huge difference though. I could make a similar character for my BT but he would be very lucky if he killed a single leman russ tank. While the BA one could down a knight with a good chance of success.

Standard bt variant 4 attacks, 3 hits 2 wounds, 6dmg fight again strat 12 dmg, unless enemy makes some 6+sv or has any inv save. Nowhere near the 20ish dmg the BA dude does.

I love Smash squads. Squads of DW Van Vets with Heavy Thunder Hammers and a JP Vet Captain. They are doing stupid damage to anything they get to.

The secret sauce of the smash captain (and why the BA is the best) is the 3d6 charge strat. I can build a SW smash captain with 7 attacks that hit on 1's re-rollable at s 10 (4+warlord trait + lion and wolf + wulfen stone) but getting him where he needs to be in order to kill stuff without getting killed by a sniper or flyers or something just killing all of my screening units is next to impossible.

3d6 re-rollable charge from 9" is like a 90%+ chance of making the charge. Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with a 3d6 charge is so winning. I usually don't give mine a storm shield because I want you to kill me so I can fight again for only 2 cp. That turn 1 DS does cost 7 CP (2 deepstrike turn 1 +2 3d6 charge+1 plus d3 attacks +2 fight again after death) and 1 to give him the black rage so 8. I usually run 2 with 18 CP and a regen CP on 5+ so I can do this twice (the second one "only" costs 5 cp because I don't need the t1 deepstrike strat).

Best anti-tank tech in the space marine army. If you don't have a way to get a +1 AND re-rollable charge or 3d6 you don't have a way to get into combat. If you can't deepstrike and charge you will not get into combat against the kinds of targets you want reliably. If you don't have a way to turn off deepstrike you will lose to TAU. BA captain is the only marine CQC unit that has access to those required tools at a reasonable cost.

Although please don't start running them because I'm currently dusting off the two I used at the beginning of 8th and would love to use them before they get the nerf bat again...

So, it's just a BA (well, BA most of the time) Captain with a Jump Pack? Are there any support models that buff the captain, or all the buffs granted by Strategems?

Is it best to try to run a patrol or battalion of BA or just run an Auxiliary Support Detachment and drop one Command Point for the point savings of having to add a Patrol or Battalion?

SG

bananathug wrote:
The secret sauce of the smash captain (and why the BA is the best) is the 3d6 charge strat. I can build a SW smash captain with 7 attacks that hit on 1's re-rollable at s 10 (4+warlord trait + lion and wolf + wulfen stone) but getting him where he needs to be in order to kill stuff without getting killed by a sniper or flyers or something just killing all of my screening units is next to impossible.

3d6 re-rollable charge from 9" is like a 90%+ chance of making the charge. Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with a 3d6 charge is so winning. I usually don't give mine a storm shield because I want you to kill me so I can fight again for only 2 cp. That turn 1 DS does cost 7 CP (2 deepstrike turn 1 +2 3d6 charge+1 plus d3 attacks +2 fight again after death) and 1 to give him the black rage so 8. I usually run 2 with 18 CP and a regen CP on 5+ so I can do this twice (the second one "only" costs 5 cp because I don't need the t1 deepstrike strat).

Best anti-tank tech in the space marine army. If you don't have a way to get a +1 AND re-rollable charge or 3d6 you don't have a way to get into combat. If you can't deepstrike and charge you will not get into combat against the kinds of targets you want reliably. If you don't have a way to turn off deepstrike you will lose to TAU. BA captain is the only marine CQC unit that has access to those required tools at a reasonable cost.

Although please don't start running them because I'm currently dusting off the two I used at the beginning of 8th and would love to use them before they get the nerf bat again...

It is kind of both, but for me mostly the damage and a bit on flexibility. Ravenguard can actually deliver a "smash captain" turn 1 much more easily in most cases. You can get a relic Jump Pack that lets you run and charge, and re-roll charge rolls, and a warlord trait for no overwatch. SO with the Ravenguard Stratagem you can deploy 9" away, move and advance over a screen then get a re-rollable charge. You just don't do the same kind of damage with fewer attacks and only damage 3. He makes a good distraction unit and a way to shut down your opponents big guns, if they aren't on a titanic unit. But it won't solo kill major enemy models. It also has the down side of if you don't get first turn you are not as effective.

Ravenguard strat only lets you take a move before game starts (must start in your deployment zone). No deploying 9" away so much harder to get t1 charges (12+d6+12+d6+charge is substantial though).

Changed that a couple FAQS ago...

Don't get strategems with an aux detachment. You need all the CP you can get so best to run a bat with 3x scouts and 2x smash captains (or captain and any other BA HQwith either 2x bats or 1x brig (depending on allies) and you need some way to regen CP (why it is so popular with the guard allies). The smash captain needs a thunder hammer (I thought that went without saying).

You can bring Lemartes with you (allows your non relic JP cap to re-roll charges). You can bring a vanilla space marine libby in some other detachment to get might of heroes (+1str, T + attack for that sweet s10 thunder hammer for those pesky t8 targets so now you wound them on 2s...). You can bring the relic thunder hammer on a cap. Artisan of war a cap WL to get +1 damage on a weapon...

There are lots of variations but the must haves are a BA captain with a JP and TH (shield at your discretion) with a suicide fetish, a cart load of CP and a big target (that can't make you strike last or auto strikes first and that won't interrupt).

bananathug wrote:
Ravenguard strat only lets you take a move before game starts (must start in your deployment zone). No deploying 9" away so much harder to get t1 charges (12+d6+12+d6+charge is substantial though).

Changed that a couple FAQS ago...

Don't get strategems with an aux detachment. You need all the CP you can get so best to run a bat with 3x scouts and 2x smash captains (or captain and any other BA HQwith either 2x bats or 1x brig (depending on allies) and you need some way to regen CP (why it is so popular with the guard allies). The smash captain needs a thunder hammer (I thought that went without saying).

You can bring Lemartes with you (allows your non relic JP cap to re-roll charges). You can bring a vanilla space marine libby in some other detachment to get might of heroes (+1str, T + attack for that sweet s10 thunder hammer for those pesky t8 targets so now you wound them on 2s...). You can bring the relic thunder hammer on a cap. Artisan of war a cap WL to get +1 damage on a weapon...

There are lots of variations but the must haves are a BA captain with a JP and TH (shield at your discretion) with a suicide fetish, a cart load of CP and a big target (that can't make you strike last or auto strikes first and that won't interrupt).

Yeah Ravenguard looks like it was a new change (or changed again) in April, it is can move 9" so not even a regular move, so no longer a good option. I hadn't played it in a while early in the edition it was a pretty good trick, but even then it was limited. SO that is a max distance of 9 +12 + D6 +2D6, which isn't nothing, but you aren't hitting back line threats with it, so not really worth it.

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, it's just a BA (well, BA most of the time) Captain with a Jump Pack? Are there any support models that buff the captain, or all the buffs granted by Strategems?

Is it best to try to run a patrol or battalion of BA or just run an Auxiliary Support Detachment and drop one Command Point for the point savings of having to add a Patrol or Battalion?

It is pretty much all relics, WL trait and stratagems. You can make him even deadlier by running him near a Sanguinor or Librarian with "Unleash Rage" but the extra +1A these provide is negligible as he can already get 6-8 attacks base.

You will need a Detachment for him. Given how CP hungry he is, a Battalion with 3 cheap Scouts squads and a Librarian Dreadnought is pretty good. CC Scouts benefit nicely from the Red Thirst trait too. Comes in at under 500 points and gives you an additional +5CPs to power Captain Smash as well as some decent units.

Being able to deepstrike turn 1

How do you deepstrike turn 1? I was under the understanding that all reserves must come on turn 2 & 3

NexAddo wrote:

Being able to deepstrike turn 1

How do you deepstrike turn 1? I was under the understanding that all reserves must come on turn 2 & 3

You can use the Stratagem "Upon Wings of Fire" to remove him from the Battlefield and redeploy him as if from Reserves, even on T1. You can also use the Stratagem "Forlorn Fury" to give him a free move before T1 but this is really only useful if you will be going first. Otherwise you are just giving your opponent a big juicy target.

Gitdakka wrote:
Those stacked free buffs make a huge difference though. I could make a similar character for my BT but he would be very lucky if he killed a single leman russ tank. While the BA one could down a knight with a good chance of success.

Standard bt variant 4 attacks, 3 hits 2 wounds, 6dmg fight again strat 12 dmg, unless enemy makes some 6+sv or has any inv save. Nowhere near the 20ish dmg the BA dude does.

Sword Brethren stratagems and Warlord Trait for extra attack and double hits on 6s, reroll wounds, and additional attack on the charge and 5+ FNP in melee. That's 6 attacks, 4.5 hits (more if you've splooged for Chapter Master), 3.75 wounds, 11.25 damage for an average of 22.5 damage against a Knight with the fight again stratagem. Actually more than 20ish dmg. Blood Angels have the advantage of mobility through stratagems, but the BT one can take the Shield Eternal to halve all damage taken.

Chapter Master doesn’t help a Thunderhammer Captain.

You only reroll ones no matter what.

Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

It's just a effective combo of strats and war gear on a jump captain that is stupid good at killing one of the biggest menaces in the current meta. Basically a nuclear deterrent for a nuclear deterrent.

I like my chaos version, the slice lord!

Gorshevs Teeth + Flames of Spite + Jump Lord = A Ton of Mortal wounds!

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

For the reasons quoted above. The Blood Angels variant can effectively deep strike turn 1 with a 90% or so chance of getting off the charge. He's immune to overwatch and kills pretty much whatever you point him at. Generally speaking, there is little to nothing your opponent can do about it other than possible screening shenanigans. I play against the dual BA Smash Captains listed above and there are ways to deal with it, but it's tough.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

For the reasons quoted above. The Blood Angels variant can effectively deep strike turn 1 with a 90% or so chance of getting off the charge. He's immune to overwatch and kills pretty much whatever you point him at. Generally speaking, there is little to nothing your opponent can do about it other than possible screening shenanigans. I play against the dual BA Smash Captains listed above and there are ways to deal with it, but it's tough.

Okay, thanks for the info. It´s in a nutshell an exploitation of the reserves rules which enables reliable transportation and allows the model to charge on the same turn it arrives on the board.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Chapter Master doesn’t help a Thunderhammer Captain.

You only reroll ones no matter what.

D'oh, was calculating with him having WS3 rather than WS2 base, that means he's actually slightly better than I mentioned.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

For the reasons quoted above. The Blood Angels variant can effectively deep strike turn 1 with a 90% or so chance of getting off the charge. He's immune to overwatch and kills pretty much whatever you point him at. Generally speaking, there is little to nothing your opponent can do about it other than possible screening shenanigans. I play against the dual BA Smash Captains listed above and there are ways to deal with it, but it's tough.

Okay, thanks for the info. It´s in a nutshell an exploitation of the reserves rules which enables reliable transportation and allows the model to charge on the same turn it arrives on the board.

I mean, it's an "exploitation" of the reserves rules, in that it's playing by them exactly, and it's been verified multiple times by GW how it works.

You're just not putting a model into reserves - you're deploying him onto the board, which makes the Reserves rule not apply to him. Orks, Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Harlequins, Deathwatch, Daemons, and I'm sure other armies can all perform "deep strike esque" redeploys turn 1.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

For the reasons quoted above. The Blood Angels variant can effectively deep strike turn 1 with a 90% or so chance of getting off the charge. He's immune to overwatch and kills pretty much whatever you point him at. Generally speaking, there is little to nothing your opponent can do about it other than possible screening shenanigans. I play against the dual BA Smash Captains listed above and there are ways to deal with it, but it's tough.

Okay, thanks for the info. It´s in a nutshell an exploitation of the reserves rules which enables reliable transportation and allows the model to charge on the same turn it arrives on the board.

I mean, it's an "exploitation" of the reserves rules, in that it's playing by them exactly, and it's been verified multiple times by GW how it works.

You're just not putting a model into reserves - you're deploying him onto the board, which makes the Reserves rule not apply to him. Orks, Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Harlequins, Deathwatch, Daemons, and I'm sure other armies can all perform "deep strike esque" redeploys turn 1.

How do Daemons do it?

It's easy lock smash capt. Put your stuff 4" behind the screens. 9+4 = 13, so smash cant declare an assault. Its done to me every game.

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy lock smash capt. Put your stuff 4" behind the screens. 9+4 = 13, so smash cant declare an assault. Its done to me every game.

I just run an Execution Force with an additional Vindicare and Culexus - of course it doesn't hurt to add an Operative Requisition Sanctioned to the mix, just to provide that *little* extra overkill... That way Cpt. Smash is just another target to get his head blown off in some manner or another...

I had a player use him in a 1500pt game a few weeks ago - and I used the above force with an additional Callidus as the ORS. Cpt. Smash didn't make it to the 2nd turn after he appeared. Double-Tap is brutality incarnate.

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy lock smash capt. Put your stuff 4" behind the screens. 9+4 = 13, so smash cant declare an assault. Its done to me every game.

Considering he can charge over, their stuff now needs to be more than 6" away. Captain Smash on a 32mm base, in front of a line of hypothetical 25mm based screening units [with T3 and a 5+ save for 4ppm], can move, land 1" behind them, not pile in, then consolidate further forward 3" giving him an ability to lock up units up to 6.28" behind the front line of the enemy. He'll need help clearing the infantry, though, Softening them up before hand, or adding in some Forlorn Charge DC to the mix should get you through.

Just because you can't declare it as a charge doesn't mean you can't get into combat with it; you just can't fight it until next round. And it's not like a Leman Russ or Basilisk is going to seriously threaten you in melee.

Of some further note, a Leman Russ is 3" wide [4.5" long] and a Basilisk is 3.5" wide and very long, which doesn't leave a lot of space for them to exist in assuming they also want space to fall back.

Oh there are ways of blocking Captain Smash and ways of dealing with him. But the key thing about him is that he is a 124 point model that can easily kill a model 2 or 3 times his price in a single round of combat.

He is not an auto-win unit as an average boyz mob will drown him in bodies and rip him to shreds. His value is that if your opponent brings a large centre-piece model like a Lord of War that is hard to kill by conventional means, Captain Smash is a hard counter to most of these units.

Only the toughest models like Daemon Primarchs are beyond a 1-round kill and even they are likely to get seriously mauled.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy lock smash capt. Put your stuff 4" behind the screens. 9+4 = 13, so smash cant declare an assault. Its done to me every game.

Considering he can charge over, their stuff now needs to be more than 6" away. Captain Smash on a 32mm base, in front of a line of hypothetical 25mm based screening units [with T3 and a 5+ save for 4ppm], can move, land 1" behind them, not pile in, then consolidate further forward 3" giving him an ability to lock up units up to 6.28" behind the front line of the enemy. He'll need help clearing the infantry, though, Softening them up before hand, or adding in some Forlorn Charge DC to the mix should get you through.

Just because you can't declare it as a charge doesn't mean you can't get into combat with it; you just can't fight it until next round. And it's not like a Leman Russ or Basilisk is going to seriously threaten you in melee.

Of some further note, a Leman Russ is 3" wide [4.5" long] and a Basilisk is 3.5" wide and very long, which doesn't leave a lot of space for them to exist in assuming they also want space to fall back.

And if the target is titanic or flies, you just wasted your time.

DC are terrible for their cost. Try again.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just a quick question from someone who only played 8th two times:

Why is the smash Cpt. a thing at all? Jump packs, thunder hammers and SM Cpt. were present even back in 2nd 40K.

For the reasons quoted above. The Blood Angels variant can effectively deep strike turn 1 with a 90% or so chance of getting off the charge. He's immune to overwatch and kills pretty much whatever you point him at. Generally speaking, there is little to nothing your opponent can do about it other than possible screening shenanigans. I play against the dual BA Smash Captains listed above and there are ways to deal with it, but it's tough.

Okay, thanks for the info. It´s in a nutshell an exploitation of the reserves rules which enables reliable transportation and allows the model to charge on the same turn it arrives on the board.

It's an exploitation of CP. When CP cost effectively 0 points and can make 130 point models 1 shot 1000 point models. There is a complete failure of game mechanics.

#1 has to be the +1 to wound army trait. It is clear it scales too hard at the str 8 and str 9 area. Which basically means you wound on 2's. Which is the same thing as having str 16 or 18....Yeah...more than an Imperial knight has with a thunderstrike gauntlet. Beyond idiotic. Their chapter tactic should simply be +1 str - like it always was maybe give them +1 attack on the charge.

#2 is the exploitation of double actions being affected by a buffing you for the phase twice. It should clearly be that in stratagems buffing a unit - it should be stated to only affect one activation per phase. Smash captains aren't the only unit abusing this. It is cearly busted to anyone with common sense though.

"#1 has to be the +1 to wound army trait. It is clear it scales too hard at the str 8 and str 9 area. Which basically means you wound on 2's. Which is the same thing as having str 16 or 18....Yeah...more than an Imperial knight has with a thunderstrike gauntlet. Beyond idiotic. Their chapter tactic should simply be +1 str - like it always was maybe give them +1 attack on the charge."

Uhh... no. BA are already borderline unplayable. Smash capt is the only model getting this much use out of it. Make upon wings 1 CP again and make it not usable by characters.

Martel732 wrote:
"#1 has to be the +1 to wound army trait. It is clear it scales too hard at the str 8 and str 9 area. Which basically means you wound on 2's. Which is the same thing as having str 16 or 18....Yeah...more than an Imperial knight has with a thunderstrike gauntlet. Beyond idiotic. Their chapter tactic should simply be +1 str - like it always was maybe give them +1 attack on the charge."

Uhh... no. BA are already borderline unplayable. Smash capt is the only model getting this much use out of it. Make upon wings 1 CP again and make it not usable by characters.

Ehhh - I'd like to see the trait changed to what I proposed. Would you really complain about +1 attack on the charge for your other unplayable units? Then in general I'd like to see a maximum of one buff stratagem and spell per unit per phase.

More to the point though. Is it still worth it to run them? As always - it's only ever been BA smash captains that are worth it and nothing else even comes close.

Maybe if you gave the BA the white scars tactic as well. Ala Drukhari tech.