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Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

In the past there has been a lot of discussion on these boards relating to the future of Primarchs in 40K. Obviously there are those who support the inclusion of as many as possible, while there are those who want only a select few to have an impact. Beyond them, there are those who wish there were no Primarchs in 40K.

This debate gets even more heated when we start talking about dead primarchs and bringing them back to life. At least for me, most games I play in my local community are friendly and it got me thinking.

What about rules for the 30K matriarchs ported into 40K for use in Open/Narrative with opponent permission?

That way I could run Conrad Curze alongside my Night Lord force, or Horus alongside Abaddon and my Black Legion forces without stepping on the toes of lore folks. Heck, even the inclusion of 40K rules for them might boost forgeworld sales a bit.
   
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In My Lab

 Togusa wrote:
In the past there has been a lot of discussion on these boards relating to the future of Primarchs in 40K. Obviously there are those who support the inclusion of as many as possible, while there are those who want only a select few to have an impact. Beyond them, there are those who wish there were no Primarchs in 40K.

This debate gets even more heated when we start talking about dead primarchs and bringing them back to life. At least for me, most games I play in my local community are friendly and it got me thinking.

What about rules for the 30K matriarchs ported into 40K for use in Open/Narrative with opponent permission?

That way I could run Conrad Curze alongside my Night Lord force, or Horus alongside Abaddon and my Black Legion forces without stepping on the toes of lore folks. Heck, even the inclusion of 40K rules for them might boost forgeworld sales a bit.
That'd be fine to me.
   
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Isn't Creed dead but has a model and rules?
   
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Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 fraser1191 wrote:
Isn't Creed dead but has a model and rules?


Creed's stuck in a Necron pokeball - Kell is dead.
   
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Dead is a pretty nebulous thing in the 40K. Some appear more dead that others. The only ones I really put in the most likely might be dead category is Horus, Sanguinus, Ferrus, and Curze.

Beyond that seems pretty iffy on any of them being really gone.
   
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Conversely, being dead doesnt mean one is out of the verse.

Lookin at you Primarch Damned McHeadless.
   
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beast_gts wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Isn't Creed dead but has a model and rules?


Creed's stuck in a Necron pokeball - Kell is dead.


I see. I'm all for having models for the sake of models.

For instance if they made a ferrous Manus model I'd be fine with it provided he's not written back in to current lore. Give him rules on par with Guilliman. They could even do a 40k rendition if he survived
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The only Primarch that's really irreversably dead is Horus, and Sanguinius is the only one that you have to jump through a lot of logical hoops to get back. To wit:

I The Lion: Sleeping beneath Caliban to be awakened later on
II (ALL RECORDS EXPUNGED, AUTHORIZATION UNKNOWN)
III Fulgrim: Daemon Prince
IV: Perturabo: Daemon Prince
V: Jaghtai Khan: Left to explore the Webway, has spent ten thousand years wandering around in circles. May emerge at any moment.
VI: Leman Russ: Left to explore the Eye of Terror, has spent ten thousand years wandering around in circles
VII: Rogal Dorn: Missing, presumed dead. Might be dead, might have miraculously escaped, might be imprisoned, nobody knows.
VIII: Konrad Curze: Presumed dead, possibly assassinated by a Callidus but no confirmation. Could easily show up again at any moment.
IX: Sanguinius: Definitely dead in body, but I've got a pet theory that the Blood Angels have visions of Sanguinius' final moments because he was somehow psychically discorporated and has been slowly reassembling his consciousness over the past ten thousand years. That's also why Mephiston is S/T 5, Sanguinius is preparing the appropriate vessel for his resurrection.
X: Ferrus Manus: Dead, but while Fulgrim's been moping in the Eye of Terror for the past ten thousand years he keeps cloning Ferrus, trying to convince the clone to turn to Chaos, and killing them and starting again when he inevitably fails, so a clone could possibly return.
XI: (ALL RECORDS EXPUNGED, AUTHORIZATION UNKNOWN)
XII: Angron: Daemon Prince
XIII: Robute Guilliman: Up and moving
XIV: Morarion: Daemon Prince
XV: Magnus: Daemon Prince
XVI: Horus: Probably irreversably dead, the Black Legion's "primarch" is Abbadon when he goes full Daemon Prince.
XVII: Lorgar: Daemon Prince
XVIII: Vulkan: Unkillable. In a tomb on Nocturne awaiting the right conditions to awaken, possibly related to the Salamanders' legends about gathering all his relics to herald his return.
XIX: Corvus Corax: Left to explore the Eye of Terror, ready to return whenever.
XX: Alpharius/Omegon: Hard to tell. Reportedly killed by Dorn, also reportedly killed by Guilliman, but given the difficulty everyone has telling those two from each other and from any of the rest of their Legion it'd be really very simple to have one or both resurface.

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UK

 AnomanderRake wrote:

VIII: Konrad Curze: Presumed dead, possibly assassinated by a Callidus but no confirmation. Could easily show up again at any moment.

No, Curze is definitely dead. One of the novels had some Night Lords catch the Assassin who did the deed and she was still carrying his severed head. Originally the fluff was ambiguous but more recent books have made it clear he ain't coming back.

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 Karhedron wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

VIII: Konrad Curze: Presumed dead, possibly assassinated by a Callidus but no confirmation. Could easily show up again at any moment.

No, Curze is definitely dead. One of the novels had some Night Lords catch the Assassin who did the deed and she was still carrying his severed head. Originally the fluff was ambiguous but more recent books have made it clear he ain't coming back.

One of his fingers is a pipe. He doesn't even have dignity in death.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:

XVIII: Vulkan: Unkillable. In a tomb on Nocturne awaiting the right conditions to awaken, possibly related to the Salamanders' legends about gathering all his relics to herald his return.


This is new to me. What book is this from?
   
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San Jose, CA

 Crimson Devil wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

XVIII: Vulkan: Unkillable. In a tomb on Nocturne awaiting the right conditions to awaken, possibly related to the Salamanders' legends about gathering all his relics to herald his return.


This is new to me. What book is this from?


Almost any HH book he's in and beast arises series. He's not unkillable, he dies all the time, he just gets up again. Even he doesnt understand how/why. Maybe it was another geneseed reaction to the world of Nocturne like his coal black skin(I would say Vanta Black would be badass)? Or Biggie made him that way on purpose?

I would like for the ones confirmed not to be dead to come back and dead ones to stay dead. Now if this happens over the next 20yrs fine just dont cram them in too fast. Hopefully a Primarchs return would have galactic ramifications/events coincide with them. So unless they want to really advance the clock closer to proverbial midnite continually (which I think is where they're heading) it would need to be well written to fit into M42.
   
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Upstate, New York

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The only Primarch that's really irreversably dead is Horus, and Sanguinius is the only one that you have to jump through a lot of logical hoops to get back. To wit:

<snip very good summery>

IX: Sanguinius: Definitely dead in body, but I've got a pet theory that the Blood Angels have visions of Sanguinius' final moments because he was somehow psychically discorporated and has been slowly reassembling his consciousness over the past ten thousand years. That's also why Mephiston is S/T 5, Sanguinius is preparing the appropriate vessel for his resurrection.


Back before they flattened the statlines in 3rd, Mephiston was identical to a WHFB Vampire Lord. I’d not read too much into his modern stats. I think we’re more likely to see the sanguinator redone in a similar style to St. Celestine to be the BA centerpiece model. Too much of the BA’s identity as a faction revolves around their primarch being dead, and his death is key to the main focal point of the setting. GW has done some bone headed things in the past, but if they bring him back they are going to torque off a lot of people.

That said, if they do bring him back, what you propose is probably the best way. I’m not 100% on modern BA lore, but spirit of sanguinius + appropriate host (dante or mephiston) = reborn primarch. And we already have the spirit kicking about if rumors of the sangunator are true...

   
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The only Primarch that's really irreversably dead is Horus, and Sanguinius is the only one that you have to jump through a lot of logical hoops to get back. To wit:



Very nice summation, though I agree with Karhedron that Curze is permanently dead. His entire life he was haunted by visions showing him that his Father would send a Callidus assassin to put him down. And ultimately Cruze left a way open for the assassin to confront him.

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Biloxi, MS USA

 Karhedron wrote:
Originally the fluff was ambiguous


How is "the Night Lords entered his chamber to find his headless corpse" ambiguous?

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Before it was written they found his headless corpse, it was a “a Callidus probably killed him” scenario.

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Dorn killing Alpharius is canon. Omegon, on the other hand, could still alive and kicking, as the events of what Guilliman does to him, IIRC, haven't been fleshed out yet properly.

My headcanon is Guilliman kills Omegon (not Alpharius, as the old fluff says), leaving both Alpharius and Omegon dead - but that doesn't matter to the Alpha Legion, who were already splitting off and becoming decentralised anyways.


They/them

 
   
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phillv85 wrote:
Before it was written they found his headless corpse, it was a “a Callidus probably killed him” scenario.


No, it was "a callidus Assassin did kill him", in that 2nd edition omniscient narrator style. It's not much of a literary reference if you lose the main point of the book.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/05 14:04:24


 
   
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Biloxi, MS USA

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Before it was written they found his headless corpse, it was a “a Callidus probably killed him” scenario.


No, it was "a callidus Assassin did kill him", in that 2nd edition omniscient narrator style. It's not much of a literary reference if you lose the main point of the book.



This. The oldest version is that Kurze foresaw the Assassin, accepted the inevitable, sent everyone away, and greeted the assassin, doing nothing to prevent what was going to happen, and the story ending with the Night Lords finding his corpse still in his chair sans head. There was zero ambiguity about it.

Hell, the first Black Library book to feature a Night Lord as the main character is all about said character looking to claim his right as successor to Kurze because Kurze is dead. Granted, he gives up on that because he's horrified the legion fully embraced Chaos post-Kurze's death, but still.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/05 14:15:27


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
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UK

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Before it was written they found his headless corpse, it was a “a Callidus probably killed him” scenario.


No, it was "a callidus Assassin did kill him", in that 2nd edition omniscient narrator style. It's not much of a literary reference if you lose the main point of the book.


Which book?

From what I remember the kill wasn’t ‘confirmed’ until the AD-B written Night Lords books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 14:22:44


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I'm almost certain it was stated in the 2nd edition Codex Chaos. That was when Night Haunter, Perturabo, Alpharius and Lorgar - the 2nd-rank Primarchs, if you will - were named and those Chapters fleshed out.
   
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So many old things have been re-written and re-imagined, trying to quote an obscure line from a 30 year old book as the definitive answer on a point of Lore isn’t the best practice. Simple truth is that it is all up for interpretation and dues ex machine on nearly anyone suddenly showing up to walk the galaxy again. Like I said Horus, Sanguinus, Ferrus, and Curze seem most likely dead. Anyone else beyond them I’d bet alive, and even them I wouldn’t count them as out if it made any sense for them to return.

Ferrus has already showed up once as a Warp Ghost. Curze having a headless clone to stick in his bed chamber seems easy enough. Horus spent how many endless years getting converted to Chaos on Davos? Have him show up for a few of those in the 40K universe. Sanguinus comes back as a Psychic Construct of the collective Blood Angels. It’s all Hand waving.
   
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In that case, I'd like to see your sources for Curze's death being unconfirmed between the 2nd edition book (not 30 years old) and whenever the Night Lords novels were written, then; I'm not aware of it ever having been considered likely (or even floated as a possibility) that M'Shen didn't kill Conrad.
   
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UK

Was it not the 2nd edition book that had the video log cutting out before M'Shen struck the killing blow? That was the ambiguity I was talking about and the "probably killed by a Callidus" event.

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Under the couch

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The only Primarch that's really irreversably dead is Horus, and Sanguinius is the only one that you have to jump through a lot of logical hoops to get back. .

GW has been setting up those hoops with the Sanguinor so they would be ready when they want them, though.

 
   
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UK

phillv85 wrote:
Was it not the 2nd edition book that had the video log cutting out before M'Shen struck the killing blow? That was the ambiguity I was talking about and the "probably killed by a Callidus" event.


It was Index Astartes 2 that has the ambiguity about the fight. I didn't think I'd misread it.

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Port Carmine

I recall a theory (quite possibly from the 40k Theories YouTube channel) that the Corona Nox worn by Curze was set with a Spirit Stone. The theory posited that his soul could be in the gem, potentially allowing his personality/personalities to take control of the wearer. It certainly might go some way to explaining why the Eldar were so keen to acquire the Corona Nox.

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I wouldnt be surprised if Kurze thought.
Well ive killed Vulkan wif a fork. Maybe I can die and come back to.
   
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Kurze not being dead would negate his entire character and story arc.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, just that the writers making him alive would be very bad at their jobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 20:07:55


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This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Port Carmine

I agree. I do think it would be fun however for the wearer of the Corona Nox to be possessed variously by the personalities of Curze and the Night Haunter.

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