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I’m a fan of just about all things marine, and was glancing through the Deathwatch codex when I realized that there is no mention of the Grey Knights providing a tithe to the Deathwatch, or any sort of collaboration or acknowledgement between the two factions, despite both being arms of the inquisition. Seems like there would be some mission overlaps between the two groups, such as aliens infected (or driven) by Chaos - or when a Chaos incursion might be mistaken as an alien infestation.

I’m guessing this was deliberate to avoid a doubly specilialized model/unit, but is there any lore indicating the two factions collaborating, or Grey Knights covertly signing on for Deathwatch duties?

Also, is it possible to replicate a Grey Knight character in Deathwatch using a librarian? Anyone done this?

FLUFF ALERT!!!

There are relatively few Astartes outside of high ranking members that even know of the Grey Knight's existence. So, likely, DW doesn't even care. That being said, I am unsure what would happen if the two even met, because fluff dictates and whatnot.

Most Astartes are mind wiped after even witnessing or hearing about GK. But DW aren't "most astartes". So who knows.

I'm betting they really wouldn't bump into each other much, as DW doesn't really muck about in chaos infested worlds, that the job of the Ordo Malleus. And vice versa for the GK and the Ordo (? Deathwatchicus?)

Pretty much what Fezzik said. GKs "don't exist" to the wider Imperium, so having members join the DW would kinda be a liability to that secret.
The point is to deny the existence of Chaos, lest that knowledge invite Chaos.

I'm pretty sure instances of Chaos inflected/influenced Xenos are so few and far between that it wouldn't even register with the DW. It'd entirely be a GK matter.

That said, I'd be ok with an Inquisition Codex "merging" the 2 factions into 1 book, with an addendum that GKs and DW cannot be in the same detachment, but either can use/be lead by Inquisitors. You could play around with keywords like Inquistion Malleus, Inq. Hereticus and Inq Xenos.

-

That is actually an awesome idea. Specialist Marines Faction.

So, just for giggles, looked up some Lexicanum lore. GK only get called in EXTREME Chaos situations.

- Summoning Elder Daemon
- Capitol World chaos incursion (Think a world with a Titan on it)
- Massive Warp Storm
- When the Primarch's begin to move

That being said, I cannot fathom why there are no (fluffwise) GK fighting on the Abaddon/Vanguard planet (forgot the name). Especially since Abby just broke a critical Imperial world in half, you'd think that would bring the Silver Mary Sue's out of retirement...

I suppose it's not impossible that a disgraced Grey Knight could show up on the doorstep of Deathwatch station and sign up as a Blackshield.

There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

The Emperor’s Gift (novel) suggests it may be due to genetic inheritance from the Emps himself, who is of course anathema to Chaos.

But on topic, the same novel says that only Chapter Masters should be privy to knowledge of the GK’s.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

You can never be certain if stuff like that is true or just propaganda though. Even if it's from a Codex.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

Disgraced does not necessarily mean “fell to Chaos”. Could be the GK was tasked to guard a daemonic relic and it slipped away or perhaps an important official fell to Chaos and escaped the GK sent to dispatch them, or caused more mayhem than the Order was willing to tolerate.


There’s a million stories to the Imperium, and if a Man of Iron can join up with a Rogue Trader, surely there’s a story that can be told of the disgraced Grey Knight forced into a situation of “Die in your duty to end your shame”.

GK have no concept of shame, mostly because all of them get mind scrubed before becoming brothers. A GK has to live for a very long time to develop any personal quirks.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

Well, except for them (and their lore) existing long before Matt Ward's influence.

I'd have to go did out my older codexes and books from the basement but I'm 90 percent sure that the no Grey Knight has ever fallen to chaos is far older than the fifth edition codex.

I don't imagine a "disgraced" Grey Knight would be allowed to leave the Grey Knights. That would seem to contravene their secretive nature. I imagine such a Knight would either be executed for his transgression, or allowed to serve his penance while remaining in the employ of the Knights.

They would Handle any Disgrace within the order for sure, Considering how valuable they would be.
Probably anything that is worth removing them from the order for would just be met with Executions.
But i would suspect any knight that could serve a punishment would find themselves with something. I like to think that the grey knights would give minor Transgressions personal missions. Added duty to prove there worth, or even if they cannot leave something like guarding a tomb or a chaos weapon until death.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I don't imagine a "disgraced" Grey Knight would be allowed to leave the Grey Knights. That would seem to contravene their secretive nature. I imagine such a Knight would either be executed for his transgression, or allowed to serve his penance while remaining in the employ of the Knights.

Yeah, this.

I don't see it so much as a Grey Knight has never become disgraced, or never been corrupted by chaos even. Rather, no one has survived to tell of it.

The only way I could see it possibly happening is if the 'disgraced' GK was the lone survivor of their mission, was cut off from their Comms, and ran for it. Then if they had the extraordinary luck to be picked up by the right Inquisitor, they might be secretly transferred to the Deathwatch eventually (likely after serving the Inquisitor's end first). No one could know he was a GK though, or everyone involved would be purged.

The inquisitor would have to have really good anti scrying facilities to hide that evil Grey Knight from the Grey Knight seers. Not impossible, as the fact that GK missed cadia and the attack on vigilus shows, but he would have to keep that GK inside, and GK are not realy the most useful sitting at home doing clean up duty.

It could even be more, that No Gray Knight has ever let another fall to chaos.
If i fall, make sure to shoot me first sorta thing.

Karol wrote:
Not impossible, as the fact that GK missed cadia and the attack on vigilus shows

Why would the GKs go to vigilus?

phillv85 wrote:
The Emperor’s Gift (novel) suggests it may be due to genetic inheritance from the Emps himself, who is of course anathema to Chaos.

But on topic, the same novel says that only Chapter Masters should be privy to knowledge of the GK’s.

That novel does mention that regular SM were previously mind-scrubbed after encounters with GK but Logan Grimnar decides that isn't happening to his SW after the Inquisition wants to repopulate. IIRC at the end of the book the GK secret is out to the entire SW chapter.

Same goes for the Rise of the Primarch story. The entire Ultramarines chapter, many elements of UM successors, the Fallen, AdM and Sisters of Battle fought side by side with Voldus and his Brotherhood on the path back to Terra. That's a lot of loose ends.

Ok, *cracks knuckles and wades into hypothetical fluff war*

So the GK have just about the worst fluff ever, because it's self contradicting at times, and at worst, flat out impossible.

I think GK not being widely known about is the same as Baneblade STC's are "lost" but they are still somehow making new ones. Or how Draigo can single-handidly take down a Daemon Prince and carve the names of every GK into the daemon's heart. It's just silly and pointless. It's the Tom Bombadil of 40k. They can do impossible things without reason or explanation, but serve ZERO purpose in the actual series of events.

That all being said - It's pointless to do the "maybe" game with the Silver Slackers, because it wouldn't matter. Also, I do think people would notice a Librarian level Psycher in DW and go, "Hey, where'd you learn to do that Gate of Infinity thing?"

Setting aside the fact that no inquisitor in existence could effectively "command" a GK to do anything. Aside from the psykic strength, the GK basically take their orders from Bobby G, or the Emps.

Bottom line - there is just too much fluff armor to unravel, you can't make them do things contrary to their nature.

Well, I’ll go back to the Librarian option in the Deathwatch codex.

If you used a GK model for the entry, how close could you get to a GK equivalent datasheet?

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, I’ll go back to the Librarian option in the Deathwatch codex.

If you used a GK model for the entry, how close could you get to a GK equivalent datasheet?

Well you'd have to houserule that his smite does 1/2 damage Then just give him the teleport relic thingy to simulate gate of infinity and Uobs your Buncle.

Considering a DW Librarian is statistically better than a GK Terminator in everything but shooting, you are kinda hindering yourself here...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That is actually an awesome idea. Specialist Marines Faction.

So, just for giggles, looked up some Lexicanum lore. GK only get called in EXTREME Chaos situations.

- Summoning Elder Daemon
- Capitol World chaos incursion (Think a world with a Titan on it)
- Massive Warp Storm
- When the Primarch's begin to move

That being said, I cannot fathom why there are no (fluffwise) GK fighting on the Abaddon/Vanguard planet (forgot the name). Especially since Abby just broke a critical Imperial world in half, you'd think that would bring the Silver Mary Sue's out of retirement...

Technically, they're not "called in". They just appear just as planned.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not impossible, as the fact that GK missed cadia and the attack on vigilus shows

Why would the GKs go to vigilus?

A demon forge mass producing demonic engines, is something Grey Knights are made for.

Karol wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not impossible, as the fact that GK missed cadia and the attack on vigilus shows

Why would the GKs go to vigilus?

A demon forge mass producing demonic engines, is something Grey Knights are made for.

Usually the GK appear for only one reason: Somebody dun saw a daemon!

POOF!

Nobody expects the SILVER INQUISITION!

 Lord Clinto wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
The Emperor’s Gift (novel) suggests it may be due to genetic inheritance from the Emps himself, who is of course anathema to Chaos.

But on topic, the same novel says that only Chapter Masters should be privy to knowledge of the GK’s.

That novel does mention that regular SM were previously mind-scrubbed after encounters with GK but Logan Grimnar decides that isn't happening to his SW after the Inquisition wants to repopulate. IIRC at the end of the book the GK secret is out to the entire SW chapter.

Same goes for the Rise of the Primarch story. The entire Ultramarines chapter, many elements of UM successors, the Fallen, AdM and Sisters of Battle fought side by side with Voldus and his Brotherhood on the path back to Terra. That's a lot of loose ends.

Terra itself is invaded by daemons, which is portrayed in Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion, and the inquisition decides not to adhere to the regular mind wiping and repopulating protocols due to sheer scale of the secrecy breach.

In the “post-dark imperium” fluff the level of secrecy is severely lowered.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

It's a combination of things. GK are literally hand picked - the best of the best all of the psykers from 1 million planets. They go through all the stuff a regular space marine goes through then they go through a brutal psychic program. Very few survive this. What emerges is a physical specimen grit and determination. Then beyond that - the Purifiers have mastered the art of banishing demonic taint to such a degree that daemonic energies can't even cohabitate the same plane as them - make the act of corruption impossible. Basically - every marine in the GK is more potent than a Librarian in a regular chapter. You are also correct. The Imperium doesn't even know they exist AND anyone to witness the GK in battle will be destroyed or mind wiped by the GK in a purge as to prevent demonic taint from spreading. This includes other space marines. Really...you think this happens willingly? Perhaps sometimes. A lot of times they probably resist...the GK still stand and are a secrete. It is clear about there relative power compared to a space marine chapter.

Even if the Deathwatch knew about the Grey Knights, recruits would not be supplied and probably wouldn't be asked for. GK's are the elite of the elite and exist for one purpose alone, which they perform until they die.

The SAS don't send soldiers to join the Royal Marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no such thing. One of the literal traits of the GK is they cannot fall to Chaos. They are somewhat singular in that. Some say it's gene trait, some say it's the 666 trials of Chaos. But no single one has ever been "disgraced".

Hence Mary-sue status. They are Matt Ward's perfect shiny little baubels.

It's a combination of things. GK are literally hand picked - the best of the best all of the psykers from 1 million planets. They go through all the stuff a regular space marine goes through then they go through a brutal psychic program. Very few survive this. What emerges is a physical specimen grit and determination. Then beyond that - the Purifiers have mastered the art of banishing demonic taint to such a degree that daemonic energies can't even cohabitate the same plane as them - make the act of corruption impossible. Basically - every marine in the GK is more potent than a Librarian in a regular chapter. You are also correct. The Imperium doesn't even know they exist AND anyone to witness the GK in battle will be destroyed or mind wiped by the GK in a purge as to prevent demonic taint from spreading. This includes other space marines. Really...you think this happens willingly? Perhaps sometimes. A lot of times they probably resist...the GK still stand and are a secrete. It is clear about there relative power compared to a space marine chapter.

I really like GK, have since I first heard of them back in Dark Millennium in 2E. But the presentation of them above points out how cringeworthy their background has become. They’re “Best of the Best”++ (not to be confused with the “Best of the Best”+, which is Deathwatch). They’ve lost touch with the original “Grey” part of their name; neither White Knights nor Black Knights, bu Knights who take the fight to Chaos using the enemy’s own tools to beat them. And way back in 2E, I seem to recall there was some knowledge floating around of their existence, but it was the sort of acknowledgement along the lines of “Men In Black” (except trading in suits and ties for terminator armor and nemesis halberds).


And it’s truly a sad state of affairs if a Grey Knight librarian can’t beat a Deathwatch librarian in a duel...