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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA




I'm torn between rolling in laughter, and crying at the blatant cynicism apparent in this revelation... I shall call this emotion, cryaghter.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/22 18:55:56


   
Made in ca
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot





Wow, first they give us the classic "pride and accomplishment" and now "surprise mechanics"? EA, truly you are the dumpster fire that keeps on giving.

There's already people jumping on the bandwagon making tongue in cheek references to this. One of my favourites is "I'm not kidnapping anyone; I'm just giving them a SURPRISE vacation".

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Yawn. Jimquisition.


Serious question:
Why do you bother reposting his videos here? Why do people even like him anyways?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 12:05:36


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why do you bother reposting his videos here?


This is the first time I think I've ever posted one of his videos here (and it's mostly him because I saw his video first).

Why do people even like him anyways?


Because he's a fairly intelligent guy who plays an man child on the internet and it's fairly funny.

Do you actually have an opinion on the topic, or do you just want to bash the messenger because he's badmouthing EA?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 13:10:20


   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Do you actually have an opinion on the topic? Because you just posted a video and the bare minimum of text.

Because when you actually see what was being discussed, the woman in the clip makes more of a case than some faux outrage peddler who is still whining over stuff that hasn't been in a game whose clip he used for almost a year.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 13:39:09


 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Indomitable Hell Rider of Glorious Renown






102nd Expeditionary Fleet

Jim bangs a lot on that drum and he is aware of this as he gets plenty of feedback on it, but he has a point.

It's a nice diversion from the ongoing Randy Pitchford and Fallout 76 sagas trainwrecks.

Be ash and cinder forevermore!

V - 11 | T - 3 | 敗 - 40

DakkaDakka | Where you thank the mods for baning you! 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

He'd have more of one if he devoted more time whining about Activision and COD/Overwatch or Ubisoft and Division than EA--and if he focused on, say, the sports games instead of Battlefront.

EA's removed blindboxes from Battlefront, period. And even before they did that? Anyone who actually played the frigging game knew that you didn't have to buy a single box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 13:54:24


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




And yet, here's an EA VP claiming that they're a positive game mechanic, with the implication that they should be more common and inherent to the kinds of games EA produces. That they (somehow) add value to the player 'experience.' And even compares them to things like Kinder Eggs (which are specifically for kids, which says a lot about who they want to prey on)

Jim is irrelevant. EA wants to double down and make loot boxes more important to their games, and is willing to say so.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/21 15:26:40


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do you actually have an opinion on the topic? Because you just posted a video and the bare minimum of text.


I figure most people aren't so dense they can't figure out my opinion from a line that telling.

Because when you actually see what was being discussed, the woman in the clip makes more of a case


A case for what?

faux outrage peddler who is still whining over stuff that hasn't been in a game whose clip he used for almost a year.


Even you can be so fanboy that you think outrage over lootbox mechanics in video games is faux. It's probably the industries largest recurring criticism going on a few years now. A peddler the man might be, but that's basically his brand, and this thread is titled "Surprise Mechanics" not "Jim Sterling" to wit, do you actually have an opinion on the topic, or are you just waving your fanboy flag and complaining that someone on the internet has a different opinion than you?

It's a nice diversion from the ongoing Randy Pitchford and Fallout 76 sagas trainwrecks.


You know, now that you bring it up, it has been kind of a gakky season for the industry bigs, hasn't it? Epic game store fallout, Pitchford being the unentertaining brand of manchild, and did we even have a thread on 76? Cause that stuff was pretty damn funny too. Even CD Project Red, the proverbial golden child, has been getting smacked around a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
EA wants to double down and make loot boxes more important to their games, and is willing to say so.


No no no.

Surprise Mechanics.

Don't be the turd in the punch bowl

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/21 14:15:19


   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

A flaming turd by any other name is still a lump of doo on fire..

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do you actually have an opinion on the topic? Because you just posted a video and the bare minimum of text.

Because when you actually see what was being discussed, the woman in the clip makes more of a case than some faux outrage peddler who is still whining over stuff that hasn't been in a game whose clip he used for almost a year.


Wow. You really like going to bat for amoral corporations.

I work with children, and they are definitely vulnerable to this sort of nonsense. I know of cases where kids got their parents credit cards and racked up huge amounts of debt really quickly before anyone noticed, the prevalence of problem gambling among teenagers (who due to their brain chemistry are very vulnerable to this sort of thing) is increasing.

Kids have been taught that it is normal to pay up front for a game and then to have to pay continuously for features that would have simply been included in games in the past as part of the base price, and this has been combined with gambling mechanics to make this entire thing a stew of psychological fethery that is pretty carefully calibrated to screw with vulnerable people.

I am not surprised that EA, one of the most disgusting companies in video games, is pushing this line when it is pressed, but I am looking forward to this practice being regulated out of existence pretty soon.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

I doubt it'll be as regulated as people expect. Honestly I think little will come of these hearings even.

I freaking buy lootboxes/gatcha currency in some games. I won't bore anyone with the reasons why I do it, but needless to say I've had a fair bit of introspection over the years concerning certain habits I feel are apparent in my lineage. And you know what, I'm sort of okay with that for myself.

EA is right. Whether it's healthy or not, people do "enjoy" these mechanics, and getting into qualifying how and why people "enjoy" them goes into some really subjective territory. If companies want lootboxes, go for it. They haven't stopped F/GO, Fortnight, or Overwatch from being beloved by fans, because a good game is a good game.

They're wrong in that they sit there and lie, pretending they don't know exactly what they're doing. It's hilariously sad and cynical display. They were asked if their business was ethical, and to side step that question they invented a new weasel word. Honestly, my hope is mostly that people call them out on the flagrant inhumanity and sheer greed being put on display. And then maybe walk with their wallets. I haven't bought from EA in years and I'm currently content to keep doing that. Their games are gak anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 16:21:08


   
Made in us
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United States

 LordofHats wrote:
I doubt it'll be as regulated as people expect. Honestly I think little will come of these hearings even.

I freaking buy lootboxes/gatcha currency in some games. I won't bore anyone with the reasons why I do it, but needless to say I've had a fair bit of introspection over the years concerning certain habits I feel are apparent in my lineage. And you know what, I'm sort of okay with that for myself.

EA is right. Whether it's healthy or not, people do "enjoy" these mechanics, and getting into qualifying how and why people "enjoy" them goes into some really subjective territory. If companies want lootboxes, go for it. They haven't stopped F/GO, Fortnight, or Overwatch from being beloved by fans, because a good game is a good game.

They're wrong in that they sit there and lie, pretending they don't know exactly what they're doing. It's hilariously sad and cynical display. They were asked if their business was ethical, and to side step that question they invented a new weasel word. Honestly, my hope is mostly that people call them out on the flagrant inhumanity and sheer greed being put on display. And then maybe walk with their wallets. I haven't bought from EA in years and I'm currently content to keep doing that. Their games are gak anyway.


So you actually raise a point that Jim raises a lot in his videos. This is an issue that should never have made it to government legislation. Games like Overwatch, CSGO, and gacha mobile games used the mechanic in ways that made sense to people, and were not predatory (as it were). It was EA, and Activision continually pushing the envelope and trying to find new ways to screw people over that caused this. Jim has even said that he supports microtransactions in F2P games. His crusade is specifically against their implementation in big budget $60 box games.

He tries to raise up consumer backlash against this stuff in an effort to make the industry regulate itself so that the government doesn't step in, and he has been quite open about how as much as he wants to say "I told you so", he isn't particularly happy it's happening now.
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






 Kanluwen wrote:
Because when you actually see what was being discussed, the woman in the clip makes more of a case than some faux outrage peddler who is still whining over stuff that hasn't been in a game whose clip he used for almost a year.


Do you have shares or something?
It needs regulation cause it's gambling, them being disingenuous by tossing around crap like "surprise mechanics" doesn't stop that. They're not the only ones at fault, but they seem to like being the poster boy for it.

   
Made in ca
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot





 n0t_u wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Because when you actually see what was being discussed, the woman in the clip makes more of a case than some faux outrage peddler who is still whining over stuff that hasn't been in a game whose clip he used for almost a year.


Do you have shares or something?
It needs regulation cause it's gambling, them being disingenuous by tossing around crap like "surprise mechanics" doesn't stop that. They're not the only ones at fault, but they seem to like being the poster boy for it.


I think given Kanluwens odd devotion towards EA, across several threads like the battlefront one, even if they were to outright steal money from him in some way he would still defend them saying it was a "surprise donation".

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

LordofHats: When it comes to adults who are more capable of reasonable decision making, have more capability for introspection, and generally better self control, I am fine with lootboxes existing for the most part. I still think it is gakky and scummy but I avoid games with them in them and that is all I can do. An adult can find ways to gamble if they want to and I am reasonably okay with allowing that the same way I am okay with allowing stuff like alcohol.

But we don't allow kids into casinos or sell them vodka over the counter. And that is my point on regulation. These companies specifically target children with this filth, and they know they are doing that, and they know kids are not good at resisting this sort of stuff, and they do not care.

So it is the job of the law to MAKE them care. Class it as gambling, stop it from being sold to kids, tax it as gambling or whatever else needs to be done. Adults with full responsibility for themselves can still access it and manage themselves. But kids should be kept clear, I think that is a pretty reasonable and non-hysterical position.

In the States, I doubt much will happen. You guys have a pretty non-regulation view on a lot of stuff except some weird hangups about stuff like alcohol. But I expect it will be regulated in the European Union, and since that is the richest market in the world, I expect it will impact on other markets too.

   
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balmong7 wrote:
His crusade is specifically against their implementation in big budget $60 box games.


I have noticed this in his videos, though I disagree on some points.

I think lootboxes and gatcha are inherently predatory, no matter the form.

The long version:

Spoiler:
I love Fate/Grand Order. I think it's one of the first mobile games, that really doesn't deserve the derogatory sentiment attached to that label. It's a good game, story driven, with solid mechanics, and fun lovable characters who all have cool creative designs. It's not without it's flaws. The game blatantly caters female characters in very skimpy outfits for sex appeal, sometimes in extremely disturbing ways. I'm happy to say that even fans have called these things out at their extremes and developer has at times adjusted strategy to accommodate complaints, more so than is typical of major developers.

But the gatcha mechanic is predatory. DW tries to balance it, releasing over the years some truly exceptional characters for free to players, and continually updating the game's core content with new special events, story progression, and bonus items and new progression systems. It doesn't change the underlying nature however of the character system and the way that system is built to entice players to buy some 1s and 0s, using limited availability and steep "rates" for powerful characters and items that are better than most others. DW isn't completely honest about their model, but it's hard for me to judge that against them because they're more honest than most. They reward their players for playing, not paying, frequently, and put a lot of effort and time into things that make their fans happy but that don't immediately translate into dollars in their coffers. They've built a degree of trust and I think that trust is returned in kind to a large degree, such that players overlook the less savory aspect of the business model because everything else comes together so well.


The short version:

I don't think the goal should be to be non-predatory. At it's core, most of consumerism is predatory in a way. What should be strived for is honesty with costumers, honesty in the business itself, and carefully balancing the pursuit of profit. You can make money without being an absolute raging greed monger putting the human race to shame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
But we don't allow kids into casinos or sell them vodka over the counter. And that is my point on regulation.


Oh, I agree. I think there should be more regulation in most industries, because corporate greed has been allowed to grow too much, and consumers should have a degree of protection from aggressive business practices because those practices inherently play to vices or ignorance in the consumer. It's sleazy, and all business will always be a little sleazy, but that doesn't mean we let it go unchecked.

These companies specifically target children with this filth, and they know they are doing that, and they know kids are not good at resisting this sort of stuff, and they do not care.


Honestly, I'd disagree on this, too a degree. I'm unconvinced game companies, explicitly, target kids with these things. I do think they merrily don't care though, which is unacceptable. They're not relying on little timmy stealing dad's credit card and racking up $5000 bills to make a profit, they're relying on LordofHats and people like him, who have an itch. They also merrily don't care if the people with an itch are overindulging, or damaging themselves and that both of these things are imo unacceptable and that just isn't in the world of gaming but across several industries.

Gambling is addictive. If companies want to profit from addiction then they should be required to take certain actions that mitigate the damage it does. Making it illegal just drives it underground and is fundamentally pointless, but we shouldn't just invoke the specter of personal choice to wash our hands of responsibility to our fellows.

So it is the job of the law to MAKE them care.


Agreed.

But I expect it will be regulated in the European Union, and since that is the richest market in the world, I expect it will impact on other markets too.


This is my hope as well. Maintaining multiple business models is shockingly pricy, and if one major market bans the practice, it'll probably (I hope) see it's dissolution in a lot of other markets. There are other ways to make money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 18:05:50


   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Indomitable Hell Rider of Glorious Renown






102nd Expeditionary Fleet

I think lootboxes and gatcha are inherently predatory, no matter the form.
I hate that it made its way into Wildlands some time post release, double whammy for not just offering cosmetics, but also ingame items like vehicles and rare weaponry. Ugh. Only saving grace is no duplicates, but good luck getting that skin or gun you want when there's 250+ crates to "collect", which means dropping way too much money into the game to get them. Even more annoying that they disabled most of their old item store, where you could previously buy the cosmetics and weapons without needing to gamble for them. You want that gun or skin? It's either in a bundle or you'll need to keep spending money until you get it from the supply drop gambling system.

Rainbow 6 Siege is another offender to some degree, regular Alpha packs (their version of the lootbox) can only be attained through play and ingame currency, a currency you can only earn through play and not purchase. You can get doubles, but those are refunded at some of the ingame currency.

Special events however.. they roll out special Alpha packs containing certain cosmetics only available during a limited time period. Sure, you get one or two packs for free as a sampler or through play, but the rest you need to buy with actual money and there's no guarantee, aside from not getting doubles, that you'll get the item you want, not without dropping €40,- or more on R6 Credits to get all the packs.

They've rightfully been getting a lot of flak for this, even from their sponsored content creators.

Be ash and cinder forevermore!

V - 11 | T - 3 | 敗 - 40

DakkaDakka | Where you thank the mods for baning you! 
   
Made in us
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





I do like to point out EA had this gak going on along time ago, The "Wilson" lootbox has been around for a long time, but frankly it causes two symptoms it causes imo: (For reference i would like to point to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLFNlu2N_M)

A: It's an underaged, uncontrolled Casino. It is not supervised, it is not legislated, it is not even taxed propperly where i am from. It has absolute negative effects, i would like to refer to the Childgambling statistics of the UK and point to the time corelation with FIFA Ultimate team etc. Not saying that it has a direct one BUT considering HOW many people get into it at an really young age i doubt it is good for the psyche.

Also in Switzerland Casinos need a license, if they let gambling addicts in they Lose that license, also up to 80% of the earnings of gambling is taxed and bound for use torwards social security AND Additicon prevention and care in order to negate the negative impacts they have.

B: The massive earnings for virtually ZERO work for gaming companies that are traded publicly have fostered an unhealthy relationship with investors, look at Actibliz and their record earnings aswell at the same time laying off 800 people.

It forces gaming companies into pushing the envelope on monetisation through micro and lootbox tansactions.
This leads to a Monetisation first game second approach.
The quality of the games are lowering, artificial grind is incentiviced and time skippers are the solution created for an artificial implanted problem.


In the end, Some companies have pushed the envelop to far, EA beeing chief amongst them but Actibliz and others are equally as guilty maybee however not as much publicly watched due to EA beeing anyways PR wise in the gutter.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/21 22:58:41


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_______________________________

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Surprise Mechanics are doubleplus-good.

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 Ahtman wrote:
Surprise Mechanics are doubleplus-good.


Exactly my first thought. If anything is like 1984's newspeak it's Corporate Speech lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/22 02:07:25


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 Adrassil wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Surprise Mechanics are doubleplus-good.


Exactly my first thought. If anything is like 1984's newspeak it's Corporate Speech lol


Orwell is spinning in his grave, soon we just have to wait for EA's new slogans of Loot is Peace, and Freedom is Crunch Time and Surprise is Good

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in au
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Hiding behind terrain

As much as I'd like lootboxes to be banned I can't see it happening. Too many politicians around the world have already handwaved it away with the "We'll continue monitoring it" bull.

Sadly, the only way I see lootboxes getting banned is if the gambling lobbyists get off their arses to defend their monopoly on gambling. If I was a gambling firm I know I'd be wondering why the feth I abide with regulation. Why can't we have kids in our pokies, afterall lootboxes have the same exact mechanical formula of random chance, the suspenseful build up and flashy graphics. And I'd also be wondering why Im bothering to look out for problem gamblers when its A-Ok for the AAA gaming companies to operate virtual casinos unmonitored in peoples lounge and bedrooms.
Hell, I'd be opening up pokie daycares. Leave your kids to spin while you go do other stuff.
   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






Honestly, I don't know if this was directed by EA or just one person throwing up some piece of internal branded terminology because she felt put on the spot and panicked, but either way it just blows my mind.

If it gets to this point - where you are cited as the reason a practice needs to be banned or regulated or whatever - to the point where you are dragged in front of a pannel of people deciding whether to ban or regulate the practice because of what you did, to act like you can sidestep the whole thing by putting a new label on it is so profoundly stupid that it rightfully gets ridiculed.

But the thing is... it's not stupid. Other companies took baby steps to gradually push the envelope on what they could get away with, but the practice was always going to die after one 'my kid accidentally ran up thousands of dollars in credit card debt because...' story too many and the legislative process takes a roughly set amount of time, so EA can squeeze two or three times as much money out of an aggressively exploitative loot box system and only kill loot boxes themselves a year sooner than they'd have died anyway.

   
Made in us
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While I think the moral implications are certainly important, I take as much offense at the fact they're just kind of ruining gameplay itself. Even in the MMO days I found it weird how much the games focused on skipping as much content as possible to get to where you could repeat one encounter as mechanically as possible as many times as it took for the RNG to reward you properly. Now we've reached the point where companies want us to pay them to skip the boring games they've made and it just feels like they keep getting more boring and grindy every year. I go back to the RPGs I remember being so grindy as a kid and you can just fly through them by modern standards. It's just... work at this point, and I have enough of that in my life as is.

I keep thinking I'm over videogames, but then I sit down in front of something like Katana: Zero and find myself up in the middle of the night replaying a level for the third time for no reason other than its fun. There are still modern games as innovative and mechanically fun as ever, but it feels like more and more they're being designed in a way to waste as much of my time as possible and loot boxes just seem to be making it work (see: Shadow of Mordor > War)
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think that all the various AAA publisher's new subscription services will be the thing they latch onto once surprise mechanics loot boxes are finally ousted from full price games.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why do you bother reposting his videos here? Why do people even like him anyways?
'Cause since TB died he's pretty much the only one left doing serious consumer advocacy (in an exaggerated style that sometimes belabours the point).

   
Made in us
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It's not cancer, it's surprise exponential cell growth!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/26 14:52:31


 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Togusa wrote:
It's not cancer, it's surprise exponential cell growth!



It's not an apocalpytic impact of a Asteroid, it's a surprise space nudge.


God.

....

I feel EA now.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

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Not Online!!! wrote:


I feel EA now.


Not EA, it's "surprise douchebag."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/26 22:34:37


   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 LordofHats wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


I feel EA now.


Not EA, it's "surprise douchebag."


Nonono, surprise person for emotional strength training via annoyment.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
 
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