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Hey folks!

Aggressors have a Fragstorm launcher that fires D6 shots. If they don't move, they can fire twice. For my games thus far, where I have 3 aggressors in a unit, I've been rolling 3D6, and if they haven't moved, multiplying the result by two.

I've had two opponents tell me that I can't roll 3D6 x 2, I need to roll 6D6.

I don't care either way, I just need to know which is correct and why so I can reference it in the future.

*edit* One of my opponents also told me that I shouldn't roll them all together - I should choose targets for the first set of firing, conclude it all, then treat the "firing twice" as a separate action, choosing its own targets.

You need to roll the 1d6 shots for each unit separately, and roll the 1d6 for your "shoot twice" separately as well. By RAW, at least. If your opponent is ok with rolling all the shots at once, then you still have to roll 6d6. You don't just double the original shot roll.

I agree with flandarz.

By the rules you should be rolling a D6 six times, which is statistically different from rolling 3D6 and doubling it.

However, I don't see how it is to your opponent's disadvantage to roll them all together. If anything, it gives your opponent a slight advantage if you are firing against multi-wound models.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
By the rules you should be rolling a D6 six times, which is statistically different from rolling 3D6 and doubling it.

However, I don't see how it is to your opponent's disadvantage to roll them all together. If anything, it gives your opponent a slight advantage if you are firing against multi-wound models.

All the shots are 1 damage even, so being multi wound doesn't make any difference.

Agreed, rolling all 6d6 together won't make any difference to the game. You can fast roll the hit rolls anyway.

Yes by RAW your supposed to roll the 3d6 shots along with their normal 6 shots once, resolve the damage, then roll it again (with the ability to choose another target I believe).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes by RAW your supposed to roll the 3d6 shots along with their normal 6 shots once, resolve the damage, then roll it again (with the ability to choose another target I believe).

EDIT - I've changed my mind on this bit, see below.

Just a follow up as it may occasionally be relevant.

Does the fire storm ability allow you to declair then shoot wound etc then declair again or do you have to declair the targets for all the units sets of shots before you do any rolling?

Ice_can wrote:
Just a follow up as it may occasionally be relevant.

Does the fire storm ability allow you to declair then shoot wound etc then declair again or do you have to declair the targets for all the units sets of shots before you do any rolling?

Well, here is the exact wording:

Models in this unit can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn (including when firing Overwatch).

As it says models can fire twice, and NOT that the unit can shoot twice, I take this to be all part of the same activation. So considering this further (and in contradiction to my position above) I think you do actually have to declare all their shooting attacks in one go including their second lot of shooting attacks.

Ok yeah looking at the wording again, they do have to declare all their attacks before resolving.

They can still split their shots like they want, even targeting 2 different units with the same weapon for each different attack with it.

The rule just effectively gives them double the weapons on their profile if they stand still.

 Stux wrote:

As it says models can fire twice, and NOT that the unit can shoot twice, I take this to be all part of the same activation. So considering this further (and in contradiction to my position above) I think you do actually have to declare all their shooting attacks in one go including their second lot of shooting attacks.

Not really.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor
Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target
each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve
these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets
each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before
resolving the second.

That FAQ doesn't contradict what I said...

I agree they can shoot different targets, but you do need to declare all of them before you start rolling.

Yeah if that's the wording of the rule that definataly seems that declare for all their shots then treat them as having 2 goes with each weapon is the correct way.

Unfortunately the FAQ question doesn't actually make much sence.
If anything the fact that you resolve the attacks back to back supports that they all have to be declared before rolling any dice.

 Stux wrote:

 Bilge Rat wrote:
By the rules you should be rolling a D6 six times, which is statistically different from rolling 3D6 and doubling it.

However, I don't see how it is to your opponent's disadvantage to roll them all together. If anything, it gives your opponent a slight advantage if you are firing against multi-wound models.

All the shots are 1 damage even, so being multi wound doesn't make any difference.

Say you have a unit of terminators and one has a storm shield. If the attacker rolls everything at once then you can see that you have to save for four wounds, decide not to risk the storm shield guy and allocate them to other models. The storm shield guy survives and goes on to protect his unit from subsequent fire. However, if the attacker rolls two volleys then the first may only cause one wound. You decide to allocate it to the storm shield guy but he ends up losing a wound. The second volley causes three wounds, you are forced to allocate them to the storm shield guy and he is horribly exploded. The terminator armour of the remaining models isn't enough to deflect the fire from other units and they get wiped out.

It is a very specific situation, but it is possible

Remember that you have to resolve the first volley of shooting before resolving the second.

Each time you fire you need to generate a new random amount of shots.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember that you have to resolve the first volley of shooting before resolving the second.

Each time you fire you need to generate a new random amount of shots.

Can you explain this? Why would you not roll 6 D6 and then resolve them all together? The unit is making a single shooting attack, the models just get to fire twice as a part of that attack. Fast rolling allows all the hits and wounds to be rolled together. Where are there rules for 'volleys' of shooting?

Orbei wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember that you have to resolve the first volley of shooting before resolving the second.

Each time you fire you need to generate a new random amount of shots.

Can you explain this? Why would you not roll 6 D6 and then resolve them all together? The unit is making a single shooting attack, the models just get to fire twice as a part of that attack. Fast rolling allows all the hits and wounds to be rolled together. Where are there rules for 'volleys' of shooting?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.5 wrote:Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g. Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second.

To add onto this, it's generally better to resolve each unit separately anyway. Otherwise, you have the potential to waste a lot of shots, since you have to declare before firing.

 flandarz wrote:
To add onto this, it's generally better to resolve each unit separately anyway. Otherwise, you have the potential to waste a lot of shots, since you have to declare before firing.

Again, you have to declare both sets of shooting before rolling anything. Because it's all part of the same unit activation in the shooting phase.

 Stux wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
To add onto this, it's generally better to resolve each unit separately anyway. Otherwise, you have the potential to waste a lot of shots, since you have to declare before firing.

Again, you have to declare both sets of shooting before rolling anything. Because it's all part of the same unit activation in the shooting phase.

Not true. The rule allows you to fire twice. That means going though all the steps individually for each set of firing. You're not doing both sets of firing simultaneously, you do them one after the other. You choose targets for the first set of firing, resolve that set, then choose targets for the second set of firing and resolve that set.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
To add onto this, it's generally better to resolve each unit separately anyway. Otherwise, you have the potential to waste a lot of shots, since you have to declare before firing.

Again, you have to declare both sets of shooting before rolling anything. Because it's all part of the same unit activation in the shooting phase.

Not true. The rule allows you to fire twice. That means going though all the steps individually for each set of firing. You're not doing both sets of firing simultaneously, you do them one after the other. You choose targets for the first set of firing, resolve that set, then choose targets for the second set of firing and resolve that set.

Disagree

Page 179 – Choose Ranged Weapons
Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets
for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you
will split the shooting unit’s shots; then resolve all the
shots against one target before moving on to the next

As you don't chose the unit to shoot twice the above applies.

"Fire Twice" is what tells you to select the unit twice. "Fire" means you go though the whole shooting phase.

It's the same language as "Fight Twice".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Fire Twice" is what tells you to select the unit twice. "Fire" means you go though the whole shooting phase.

It's the same language as "Fight Twice".

No honer the chapter strategum specifically says

Select an adeptus Astartes infantry or adeptus Astartes biker unit-that unit can immediately fight for a second time

Only in death

can immediately shoot as if it were your shooting phase

Shoot and fire arent the same language

after all the units models have fired, you can choose another unit to shoot with

it 1 shooting sequence you just get to fire each weapon twice.

Fire and shoot are synonyms. At best you can argue ambiguity about whether you choose targets all at once or not. But there's nothing concrete that says "choose all your targets first", so you can't argue that one.

 flandarz wrote:
Fire and shoot are synonyms. At best you can argue ambiguity about whether you choose targets all at once or not. But there's nothing concrete that says "choose all your targets first", so you can't argue that one.

Yeah their is GW FAQ'd that 2 big FAQ's ago i posted it up thread it litterly says at the same time that you choose targets 
for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you 
will split the shooting unit’s shots

That doesn't prove anything. Fire Twice is synonymous with Shoot Twice. If you Shoot Twice, as BCB pointed out, you resolve all the first round of shots first before moving to the second. Like I said, at best you can argue ambiguity as to whether Fire = Shoot, but you can't argue any further than that.

 flandarz wrote:
That doesn't prove anything. Fire Twice is synonymous with Shoot Twice. If you Shoot Twice, as BCB pointed out, you resolve all the first round of shots first before moving to the second. Like I said, at best you can argue ambiguity as to whether Fire = Shoot, but you can't argue any further than that.

No Fire and shoot are not synonymous.
The wording of the strategums he referenced is clealry different.

When you fire in the shooting phase you select a unit to fire. You declare all of the shots for the unit at once. The aggressors special rule applies to the models, allowing them to fire twice, not the unit. Stux had this correct earlier in the thread.

You're welcome to feel that way. BCB posted a quote from the FAQ that leads me to think otherwise.

WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.5 wrote:
Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g. Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second.

When I see "resolve the first... before... the second" I assume that means the entire Shooting Sequence. Now, it's perfectly fine to assume that you resolve everything after "choose targets" separately, but the first two steps have to be done at the same time. But, at best, that's an assumption (same as what I'm doing). The most clear directive we have to go on is that FAQ, and it doesn't state either way. However, the part where it says "they are resolved back to back" leads me to believe they are supposed to be separate shooting sequences, rather than the same one.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Hey folks!

Aggressors have a Fragstorm launcher that fires D6 shots. If they don't move, they can fire twice. For my games thus far, where I have 3 aggressors in a unit, I've been rolling 3D6, and if they haven't moved, multiplying the result by two.

I've had two opponents tell me that I can't roll 3D6 x 2, I need to roll 6D6.

I don't care either way, I just need to know which is correct and why so I can reference it in the future.

*edit* One of my opponents also told me that I shouldn't roll them all together - I should choose targets for the first set of firing, conclude it all, then treat the "firing twice" as a separate action, choosing its own targets.

You should roll 3D6 each time, not just double the roll. In the long run it should average out, you're right, when you double the 3's and the 18's. If you re-roll for reshooting, it should average out faster, and that's better for both players.

You should definitely fire each "round" of shooting seperately. They do not have to be at the same target. You may wipe out the unit in the first round, wasting the rest of the shots.

You should:
Declare targets/etc.
Roll your Grenade randomness.
Fire your gauntlets and grenades
Resolve.

Rinse and Repeat.