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Made in be
Fresh-Faced New User




Dear wargamers,

For too long have the Necrontyrs slumbered nerfed as they are. Let them be glorious again !

Ok on the serious side,
Here is a list of changes that I would like to see for the army.
I will present this as issues and the fixes I see for them.

-Reanimation protocols and complete squad annihilation:
Make Resurrection orb a one use item activatable item when a squad is wiped out within 12.
Give the squad the opportunity to make 10 (all?) reanimation rolls at the beginning of Necron turn.
Keep one model of the squad on the ground as reference point.
The models must be placed as close as possible to that model and the Necron deployment zone.

-Chronometron and their 3 inch range. Come on guys, Orks even have 9.
Make Chronometron 6 at least and affect all Necron[Dynsaty] units.

-Vehicles and their T6. Why nerf the army because it has quantum shielding ?
Make
Triarch stalker T7
Ghost ark T7
Doomsday ark T7
Canoptek spider becomes a vehicle or character, grant it living metal
Doomscythe T7
Nightscythe T7

-Entropic strike stratagem 1 attack only
I really like everything that make Necrons have unique advantages over technology.
This one should read: "the next time this model activates in the combat phase, invulnerable saves cannot be taken against close combat attack made by this character this activation."
So as to prevent Novokh double fight phase shennanigans but improve the danger of those (few) melee attacks.

Please share your feedback, I'm interested in making this fair. Thank you
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

Res Orbs being used on wiped squads: Common suggestion, and one I like.

Chronometron up to 6": Fine.

Vehicles to T7: Maybe. DEFINITELY not the Scythes, though-fliers rarely get T7.

Entropic Strike Improvement: Seems fine, considering the Necron's lackluster melee profiles.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Idk, T6 feels like a balance decision due to QS. Flyers could use QS too though; they feel really flimsy, and considering how expensive and important they are (one of the few transport options available) having them survive for more than a turn would be nice.

I would actually move Entropic Strike from being a stratagem to a C'tan power, replacing Seismic Assault (which is gak). You use it to buff a necron squad (or the C'tan itself. 3rd ed FTW) so that one of their attacks (per model) in CC ignore invuls.
And before anyone calls OP - Null Zone and death hex exists, and that's not restricted to CC.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/08 16:37:03


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

For the math on Quantum Shielding:

Damage.............Average Damage Taken
1................................1
2................................5/3 or 1.67
3................................2
4................................2
5................................5/3 or 1.67
6................................1

Using those numbers, you can get the average damage of d3 and d6 as well.

d3................................14/9 or 1.56
d6................................14/9 or 1.56

Huh. I didn't realize that d3 and d6 had the same damage output against Quantum Shielding till just now. Neat fact.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






Xyphal wrote:
Dear wargamers,

For too long have the Necrontyrs slumbered nerfed as they are. Let them be glorious again !

-Reanimation protocols and complete squad annihilation:
Make Resurrection orb a one use item activatable item when a squad is wiped out within 12.
Give the squad the opportunity to make 10 (all?) reanimation rolls at the beginning of Necron turn.
Keep one model of the squad on the ground as reference point.
The models must be placed as close as possible to that model and the Necron deployment zone.

-Chronometron and their 3 inch range. Come on guys, Orks even have 9.
Make Chronometron 6 at least and affect all Necron[Dynsaty] units.

-Vehicles and their T6. Why nerf the army because it has quantum shielding ?
Make
Triarch stalker T7
Ghost ark T7
Doomsday ark T7
Canoptek spider becomes a vehicle or character, grant it living metal
Doomscythe T7
Nightscythe T7

-Entropic strike stratagem 1 attack only
I really like everything that make Necrons have unique advantages over technology.
This one should read: "the next time this model activates in the combat phase, invulnerable saves cannot be taken against close combat attack made by this character this activation."
So as to prevent Novokh double fight phase shennanigans but improve the danger of those (few) melee attacks.

Necrons are not nerfed and they are not weak, Necrons got the biggest buff out of any faction in the latest CA if you ignore the nerf of our TVault crutch and even then I'd like my odds of facing an old triple Vault list with my modern list. Necrons only other ever nerf was the removal of our Pylon crutch, see a pattern? Necrons get a lot of buffs and the only things they nerf are stupid Titanic crutches. Extermination Protocols haven't been nerfed despite everyone and their mom knowing it's one of the most OP Stratagems in the game, why? Because GW doesn't want to upset us, it would be totally fair to nerf it given that it is unbalanced and costs too little CP.

- ResOrb needs to be changed/buffed in some way, I think it could impart a permanent bonus as well as the one-use ability, that'd make it a lot less swingy as well. The majority of games it does nothing. If it allowed units within 3" to flee with dead models that are waiting to reanimate instead of taking the models still on the table I could see some more uses for the ResOrb, it would also make its main function more easy to use, without punishing your opponent for killing the entire squad, instead punishing them for leaving a few left to die from morale. I think what you suggested is a little too complicated for 8th.
- Orks have to be entirely within 9", within 3" would be better for Orks and entirely within 9" would be better for Necrons but one isn't really better than the other, it depends on unit size, it's quite easy to snake a model within 3" of a Cryptek while the other 15 are in melee 15" away. The Ork item is insanely strong, we'd need to nerf a large amount of units before the Cryptek can become as good as the Big Mek with KFF, Necrons are not weak ATM. Otherwise, the Chronometron would have to go up 30 or so pts. Doomsday Arks are a big problem, ever tried putting 3 with a Gauss Pylon? That's a lot of firepower that's quite hard to shift with shooting, especially lascannons are useless against DDAs with a 5++, a Pylon can at least be shot, a Cryptek cannot.
-QS is much stronger this edition to what it was previously, losing open-topped is a huge deal as well. If QS shut off at 50% or 25% damage then maybe I could get behind a T increase.

I don't think many people would like it when you pay 1 CP to cut a character's survivability in three. I've already used the Stratagem a number of times for when I really needed to kill something. It'd basically mean you can very nearly guarantee the murder of any Character with the Nightbringer. Consider how much CP you need to invest into a Smash Captain to double his damage output, you want to double or triple your output for 1 CP? With your suggestion Entropic Strike becomes one of our strongest Stratagems and a key thing for our opponents to know. Noob traps are not fun. These kinds of niche Stratagems need to be fairly costed in terms of CP so that any opponent that doesn't know you can pull this gak out of your hat doesn't feel cheated. If you deep strike 20 Warriors 11.9" away from a unit of Kastellan Robots and you lose 20 Warriors for 2 CP you wouldn't feel so good about it would you? You cannot know every Stratagem and the ones that swing games because of small mistakes that you cannot know without knowing every single Stratagem are unfun.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Idk, T6 feels like a balance decision due to QS. Flyers could use QS too though; they feel really flimsy, and considering how expensive and important they are (one of the few transport options available) having them survive for more than a turn would be nice.

I would actually move Entropic Strike from being a stratagem to a C'tan power, replacing Seismic Assault (which is gak). You use it to buff a necron squad (or the C'tan itself. 3rd ed FTW) so that one of their attacks (per model) in CC ignore invuls.
And before anyone calls OP - Null Zone and death hex exists, and that's not restricted to CC.

The Doom Wing is too popular to give our flyers QS, unless you heavily nerfed Amalgamated Targeting Data. Giving them T7 would make sense when you compare it to other vehicles transition to 8th. I don't think anything is going to make the Tomb World worth using, it's almost always just a gakky version of a regular transport. How would you like to pay 1 CP to get out of your transport without losing 1/6 guys or lose 6/6 if you pay 0 CP or wait until turn 4 instead of losing 1/6 guys? The core idea of having multiple units to choose from is useless when my opponent can shoot down the Tomb Portals that are in a place where he doesn't want me to deep strike and when putting multiple units on the Tomb World risks me losing a huge investment if my opponent destroys all my Tomb Portals. The Tomb World needs to have some inherent value over a regular transport to be worth using at all, I don't understand how 8th could get it so wrong when 5th and 7th both it at least sort of right.

I'm not sure why you want to input a totally unrelated power into what is otherwise a list of powers solely focussed on dealing damage at range. Now if it worked like Jinx or Death Hex that'd make more sense IMO, but again would introduce feels badsies if you ever pull it out for 1CP and suddenly murder your opponent's 3++ Terminators. Seismic Assault is totally fair, you really don't need every power to be worthwhile, yes if you have 3 C'tan one of them will have to have it, but you can just put it on your Deceiver and replace it with Cosmic Fire T1, it's also amazing on the Tesseract Vault, 10 MWs to a mob of Ork Boyz? Yes, please. Even just killing 5 with a Shard is superior to many of our other options against Orks.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Another item for consideration.

The Tesla Destructor. Its useless for its points. It wants to be an autocannon, but has none of the advantages of one.

Assault 4 STR 7, AP-0, 1 Damage, Tesla

To make the thing halfway useful, could we push for

Assault 4 STR 7, AP-1, Dmg d3, or 2...something?, Tesla

Bedouin Dynasty: 9000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts
The Emperor's Finest 2k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in be
Fresh-Faced New User




Thank you for your replies.

Vict0988 thanks for cheering me up a bit.
It's true we have received help in the latest CA.
I wish we had more new fun stuff coming our way like SM or Chaos does, but we'll have to wait on that.

-Entropic strike X3 for 1CP ok maybe too strong.

-QS is strong for sure, I wonder what the odds are with the stratagem active.

-As for tesla destructor, it could really use a buff along the lines of -1AP. Damage d3 could really get out of control with the tesla effect, I feel. Then again it would be a bit like ork randomness.

-Really hoping to see changes to Cryptek UPgrading units since they are the ones restoring each dynasty to their former glory.
It could be that Overlords ands lords buff the infantry and cryptek the machines with a choice of these for a turn:
-More speed
-More firepower
-More defense

The Astra mechanicus has been there for less time and already has a really neat bag of tricks.
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






QS increases survivability by 0%, 20%, 50%, 28%, 125% against 1, 2, 3, d3, d6 damage weapons.

QD increases survivability by a further 20%, 25%, 33%, 27%, 60%. I use Quantum Deflection all the time, I find that a 20% is too little to be worth it, but D3 damage and above I use it. One thing to note is that QD working against D1 goes against the core rules and will no longer be true if they choose to remove the FAQ telling us we can use it.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I would like invun save for the monolith and make it cheaper. It is supposed to be an iconic unit yet is woefully over costed and underpowered
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Fightingfirst wrote:
I would like invun save for the monolith and make it cheaper. It is supposed to be an iconic unit yet is woefully over costed and underpowered

On top of the abysmal firepower, the reserve rules stop it from shining as well.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

Res Orb should offer the chance to roll Reanimation for wiped units. It might be tricky to word rules wise however.

Gloom Prism should be a flat -2 to cast within 24"

Tesla Destructors have range improved to 36" giving Annihilation Barges more of an edge

Cryptek and Lord aura abilities increased to 6"

Monolith needs a few things:

Death Descending rule changed so that when a Monolith is set up from reserves, you may immediately set up a unit that was deployed on the tomb world within 3" of the Monolith. Amend Eternity Gate rules so that these two don't clash, and the wording does not clash with Enhanced Invasion Beams

Monolith itself needs a 5++ and a 2+ Sv

For offense, the particle whip should be flat 3 damage and the flux arcs should be rapid fire. In addition Floating Fortress rules should allow it to fire while enemies are within 1"

   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

dapperbandit wrote:
Res Orb should offer the chance to roll Reanimation for wiped units. It might be tricky to word rules wise however.

Gloom Prism should be a flat -2 to cast within 24"

Tesla Destructors have range improved to 36" giving Annihilation Barges more of an edge

Cryptek and Lord aura abilities increased to 6"

Monolith needs a few things:
Death Descending rule changed so that when a Monolith is set up from reserves, you may immediately set up a unit that was deployed on the tomb world within 3" of the Monolith. Amend Eternity Gate rules so that these two don't clash, and the wording does not clash with Enhanced Invasion Beams
Monolith itself needs a 5++ and a 2+ Sv
For offense, the particle whip should be flat 3 damage and the flux arcs should be rapid fire. In addition Floating Fortress rules should allow it to fire while enemies are within 1"


I agree with the gloom prism, but i think the issue with it is more the platform that can carry it flat out sucks, Spiders are terrible atm.
Tesla Destructors just really need -1AP to be ok. 2 Damage and -1AP would make them great. They get that, you'd see them used again.
Cryptek and Lords...yeah, I dont understand why 3 inches was an idea.

All the monolith ideas sound fine, but i'd say that more or less that the 5++ won't help it much, only against attacks with AP-4 or AP-5. I'd rather it had a FNP or something.
Flat 3 Damage would be perfect for the whip.
I'd propose that Land Raiders and Monoliths both be able to fire while tied in melee.

Bedouin Dynasty: 9000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts
The Emperor's Finest 2k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






dapperbandit wrote:
Lord aura ability increased to 6"

It already is. I don't think Monoliths need to be anywhere near a Knight in terms of pts, offense or defence, it just deserves another pts drop of similar magnitude to what it received last time. Obelisk I think deserves a rules change to make its anti-FLY ability useful against armies with fewer than 10 units with Fly. Just make it a 2+ against a unit of your choice, at best you are dealing D3 wounds to a DP or Alaitoc flyer, nothing much compared to its size and cost.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





As usual vict0988 hasn't got a clue what he's talking about when it comes to Necrons.

Necrons are not nerfed and they are not weak

They were objectively nerfed the hardest from 7th to 8th edition. They are objectively one of the weaker factions right now.

Necrons got the biggest buff out of any faction in the latest CA

In terms of what? The biggest winners overall were Tau, by far. In terms of points decreases, lots of factions had reductions comparable to Necrons; Eldar, AdMech, Tau, Tryanids.

Necrons get a lot of buffs

No they didn't. They got a lot of small points decreases, which in many cases didn't go far enough and several units that desperately needed decreases didn't get them.

Extermination Protocols haven't been nerfed despite everyone and their mom knowing it's one of the most OP Stratagems in the game

The only reason Destroyers work at all for 50 points per model is because of this strat and because it's 1CP. It's in no way OP and wouldn't even feature in the top 20 strats in the game.

why? Because GW doesn't want to upset us

Citation needed. GW don't want to upset anyone explicitly. You're being ridiculous.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





Last tournament (over 150 people) necrons got one of the best overall results race-wise. So they are not weak now, not at all.

What needs overhaul is not the units, but the ideas behind them.

My ideas for the "overhaul" is more to get the Lore in line with Tabletop without breaking the game:

1) Necrons are masters over the material universe. They've holded up the Eye of Terror, almost closed the warp storm during Medusa V campaign (stupid space marines destroyed pylons).
Yet they inexplainably suffer from psychic armies.

What I propose:
"Gloom prism" shall be worded exactly like Cullexus aura OR shall provide "sisters of silence" type of buff aura to the <dynasty> units within 6". The spider carrier is targetable, so it will require certain finesse to protect it, yet the bonus will be worthwhile to bother.

C'tans are bane to warp forces. They shall be immune to psychic powers whatsoever like Sisters of Silence, OR ignore mortal wounds from psychic powers on a ridiculous roll like 2+.

Optional:
All necron units shall have in-built protection from psychic powers' mortal wounds (like Custodes) on 6+.

2) Gauss Weapons over last 6 editions went from the bane of all vehicles to the glorified bolter. It is SHAME 100% of the immortals are weilding tesla weapons instead of the iconic Gauss. Tesla should be niche anti-horde solution, instead of being better all around.
In 3-4edition single Necron Warrior shot could destroy Land Raider. It is a bit too much for 8ed, but still, Gauss needs buff.

What I propose is simple: on a 6 to wound Gauss weapon shall have AP-4 (effectively making Gauss Weapons a ranged version of Rending Claws). Heavier Gauss Weaponry can have better bonus, but for ubiquity and stylistic reasons I would rather make everything AP-5 on 6 to wound rather than inventing different wordings for different gauss weapons.

3) Inertialess Drives - the staple of necrontyr space and aircraft technology. Why the hell eldars have more agile planes?

What I propose: initially I wanted them to have minimum movement without mentioning of the facing. So necron flyer can fly 20" forward, then next turn 20" backward if he likes, but this is essentialy hover mode on steroids (albeit straight line moves). So i think copy-paste from aeldary aircraft will be enough.

4) Triarchs Praetorians - they are so useless right now.
While having Triarch keyword, triarch characters and so on would be nice - a simple deepstrike ability would give them enough purpose to be considered. Their profile in 8ed is a lackluster...

5) The unique feature of necrons in earlier editions was the ability to ignore invulnerable saves.
Nowadays it is much more common (null zone, death hex, khornate artifact of chaos knights, vindicare rounds etc.) and Necrons again are on the lackluster side being able to ignore Inv. saves at a rate of one attack per fight phase.

What I propose:
Scythes should ignore inv.saves by default, and stratagem Entropic Strike should be:
"Use this stratagem immediately after you fight with Necron Character armed with Warscythe. Make one extra hit roll against the target this Character attacked this phase, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds"

As an option: C'Tans should be able to ignore Inv.saved whatsoever by default as well, to make them in line with Callidus Sword.

Also shenanigans with invulnerable saves could be cool stratagem for Canoptek Spyders, Obelisks or Monolith.
I do not know which one is better, but 3CP once per battle stratagem canceling invulnerable saves for models within certain range would be awesome.

I think it could be named "Blackstone Resonance" and be available to both Monolith and Obelisk. 9" range to avoid cheese with deepstriking monolith would be enough.

I could go on and on...

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/24 12:21:49


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




What tournament are you talking about might I ask? Kinda want to check out the lists that they brought, but I can't seem to find the event. Thanks.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





Darsath wrote:
What tournament are you talking about might I ask? Kinda want to check out the lists that they brought, but I can't seem to find the event. Thanks.


it is russian team tournament Black Summer 2019:

Spoiler:


Our team marginally placed 2nd, and our Necron player across 4 games got highest result in team: 76 out of 80 possible points with this roster:
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+ TEAM: GG WP

+ PLAYER4: Alexey Tikhomirov

+ ARMY FACTION: Necrons

+ TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 11

+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts

+ ARMY FACTIONS USED: Necrons

+ TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

== Battalion Detachment == Necrons, <Sautekh> [985 pts] +5 CP

HQ: Imotekh the Stormlord (160) = [160 pts] – Warlord: Hyperlogical Strategist

HQ: Lord (65), Staff of Light (10) = [75 pts]

TR: 10 Immortals (80), 10 Tesla Carbines (70) = [150 pts]

TR: 10 Immortals (80), 10 Tesla Carbines (70) = [150 pts]

TR: 10 Immortals (80), 10 Tesla Carbines (70) = [150 pts]

FA: 6 Destroyers (180), 6 Gauss Cannons (120) = [300 pts]

== Spearhead Detachment == Necrons, <Sautekh> [565 pts] + 1 CP

HQ: Cryptek (70), Staff of Light (10), Canoptek Cloak (5), The Veil of Darkness (Relic) = [85 pts]

HS: Doomsday Ark (160) = [160 pts]

HS: Doomsday Ark (160) = [160 pts]

HS: Doomsday Ark (160) = [160 pts]

== Air Wing Detachment == Necrons, <Sautekh> [450 pts] + 1 CP

FL: Doom Scythe (150) = [150 pts]

FL: Doom Scythe (150) = [150 pts]

FL: Doom Scythe (150) = [150 pts]

TACTICAL OBJECTIVES: Rulebook

REFINED STRATEGY: Advance, Kingslayer, Domination, Blood and Guts, Area Denial, Priority Orders Received


During previous tournament this exact roster in hands of another winning team got capped result of 80/80 (20-0 in 4 games).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/24 12:56:57


 
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






Cynista wrote:
As usual vict0988 hasn't got a clue what he's talking about when it comes to Necrons.

Necrons are not nerfed and they are not weak

They were objectively nerfed the hardest from 7th to 8th edition. They are objectively one of the weaker factions right now.

Necrons got the biggest buff out of any faction in the latest CA

In terms of what? The biggest winners overall were Tau, by far. In terms of points decreases, lots of factions had reductions comparable to Necrons; Eldar, AdMech, Tau, Tryanids.

Necrons get a lot of buffs

No they didn't. They got a lot of small points decreases, which in many cases didn't go far enough and several units that desperately needed decreases didn't get them.

Extermination Protocols haven't been nerfed despite everyone and their mom knowing it's one of the most OP Stratagems in the game

The only reason Destroyers work at all for 50 points per model is because of this strat and because it's 1CP. It's in no way OP and wouldn't even feature in the top 20 strats in the game.

why? Because GW doesn't want to upset us

Citation needed. GW don't want to upset anyone explicitly. You're being ridiculous.

Personal attacks are classy.

I wasn't talking about 7th edition, that was 2 years ago and not really relevant. Necrons were trash in the Index, having exactly 1 relatively good unit and a low number of decent units, we have only gotten better since CA2017 and CA2017 didn't buff our units because the codex was imminent.

Broadsides were bad and were made incredible, but they aren't actually much better than Riptides, CA2018 gave Tau a wealth of more options to choose from in terms of competitive armies, but overall didn't make them much better. The fact that Tau are doing well is as much because of the nerfs to the competition as it is the meagre buffs they got in CA2018. Tau had 10 units change in price, Necrons had 22, Tau 14 pieces of wargear change cost, Necrons had 8. Necrons got a single nerf, let's assume Tau got none, that's still way in favour of Necrons. I'd like to see a list that anyone took before CA2018 with Tau get more than a hundred pts decreased, on the other hand you practically cannot make a Necron list where that is the case. Eldar got nerfed if anything in CA2018, Windriders becoming good was irrelevant, good lists were made without them and continue to be made without them. As for Tyranids...
Spoiler:
Necrons are stronger than Nids, they are primarily used as part of Genestealer Cult armies, not a standalone force.


Both the Tesla Immortal and DDA buffs went too far. It's obvious that buffs don't always go far enough, if you want to ensure that every buffed unit becomes at least viable you're basically guarenteeing that at least some of them will become OP, we are what 5 months out from the next CA and Necrons are already winning tournaments in numbers that fit pretty well with how many Necron players attend those tournaments.

Hehehehe. Strats that increase firepower by 100% for 2 CP are amazing, but increasing firepower by 33%-90% for 1 CP isn't that good... I don't think the Strat needs to be changed, I'm fine with Destroyers where they are now and I prefer seeing a single unit of them once in a while compared to running a whole Destroyer wing every game like was the case in 7th. I agree that Destroyers might need a pts to decrease if the Strat was increased to 2 CP and it isn't really fair when you compare it to the most outrageously OP Strats other factions have, but I'm of the opinion that the whole competitive scene needs to be put on its head with sweeping changes to Strats and pts and setting a whole new baseline instead of trying to make every unit compete with the most competitive lists of today, that route is just going to lead to power creep. Power creep is cancerous for strategy games and especially for a modelling game like 40k. Why would I buy a unit if I knew GW was trying to spin the creep wheel instead of trying to bring everything into a relative state of balance?

I don't have proof of GW's intent, they may nerf us next CA and buff Eldar, but their record so far is promising, their main feth-up was writing gakky index rules for Necrons but I believe things will get better.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Personal attacks are classy.

You would know

I wasn't talking about 7th edition, that was 2 years ago and not really relevant. Necrons were trash in the Index, having exactly 1 relatively good unit and a low number of decent units, we have only gotten better since CA2017 and CA2017 didn't buff our units because the codex was imminent.

Claiming that Necrons are not weak because they are better now than in the index is a complete fallacy. Every army is better now than in the indexes. Necrons are still bottom half

CA2018 gave Tau a wealth of more options to choose from in terms of competitive armies, but overall didn't make them much better.

Having a wealth of options by definition makes them a lot better than they were.

Tau had 10 units change in price, Necrons had 22, Tau 14 pieces of wargear change cost, Necrons had 8. Necrons got a single nerf, let's assume Tau got none, that's still way in favour of Necrons.

You are spinning this. Whilst Necrons had more units reduced, Tau had bigger average reductions per model. And yes, the nerfs to other factions did help the Tau more than anyone, glad you agree

Eldar got nerfed if anything in CA2018

Lol, just no. They got tons of reductions making more things viable. Only SS went up 6 points p/m

As for Tyranids... Necrons are stronger than Nids, they are primarily used as part of Genestealer Cult armies, not a standalone force.

Again, no. Nids aren't tremendously strong but they are comfortably mid tier with a much more rounded, versatile, internally balanced codex than Necrons. But then that wasn't even my point and you know it. My point was that Tyranids got sweeping points reductions in CA18

Both the Tesla Immortal and DDA buffs went too far.

Good joke. Tesla Immortals are one of the only appropriately priced units in the book and DDA's aren't even that good.

I don't think the Strat needs to be changed, I'm fine with Destroyers where they are now and I prefer seeing a single unit of them once in a while compared to running a whole Destroyer wing every game like was the case in 7th. I agree that Destroyers might need a pts to decrease if the Strat was increased to 2 CP

Good, I'm happy to see you've changed your tune because your earlier assertion that their strat is OP is absolute nonsense
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






Cynista wrote:
Personal attacks are classy.

You would know

I wasn't talking about 7th edition, that was 2 years ago and not really relevant. Necrons were trash in the Index, having exactly 1 relatively good unit and a low number of decent units, we have only gotten better since CA2017 and CA2017 didn't buff our units because the codex was imminent.

Claiming that Necrons are not weak because they are better now than in the index is a complete fallacy. Every army is better now than in the indexes. Necrons are still bottom half

CA2018 gave Tau a wealth of more options to choose from in terms of competitive armies, but overall didn't make them much better.

Having a wealth of options by definition makes them a lot better than they were.

Tau had 10 units change in price, Necrons had 22, Tau 14 pieces of wargear change cost, Necrons had 8. Necrons got a single nerf, let's assume Tau got none, that's still way in favour of Necrons.

You are spinning this. Whilst Necrons had more units reduced, Tau had bigger average reductions per model. And yes, the nerfs to other factions did help the Tau more than anyone, glad you agree

Eldar got nerfed if anything in CA2018

Lol, just no. They got tons of reductions making more things viable. Only SS went up 6 points p/m

As for Tyranids... Necrons are stronger than Nids, they are primarily used as part of Genestealer Cult armies, not a standalone force.

Again, no. Nids aren't tremendously strong but they are comfortably mid tier with a much more rounded, versatile, internally balanced codex than Necrons. But then that wasn't even my point and you know it. My point was that Tyranids got sweeping points reductions in CA18

Both the Tesla Immortal and DDA buffs went too far.

Good joke. Tesla Immortals are one of the only appropriately priced units in the book and DDA's aren't even that good.

I don't think the Strat needs to be changed, I'm fine with Destroyers where they are now and I prefer seeing a single unit of them once in a while compared to running a whole Destroyer wing every game like was the case in 7th. I agree that Destroyers might need a pts to decrease if the Strat was increased to 2 CP

Good, I'm happy to see you've changed your tune because your earlier assertion that their strat is OP is absolute nonsense

As far as I can see I've never personally attacked you, rebuking your bad ideas doesn't have anything to do with personal attacks.

Necrons being bottom half is not the same as saying they are one of the worst or bottom tier. I also didn't claim Necrons weren't weak because they got better in CA2018 or even that them being the most buffed faction in CA2018 makes them good, the pts costs they currently have make them good.

Necrons have more unit diversity than Tau in lists that make it to top 5 at big tournaments, only within the last 2 months have we seen a massive snaring of the range of Necron lists, but we still see some range, not really any less than Tau. I don't personally find most Tau lists that scary, only the Broadside and/or Riptide spam lists supported made invincible by OOLOS Drones.

Can you back that average up or do I have to go through the changes myself to prove that it isn't the case, I could be wrong but Necrons got a very hefty decrease in pts just on paper. In reality Necrons got the good end of the stick, with the practically mandatory 3 DDAs alone you save 90 pts, usually you see lists being about 2200 in old cost for Necrons, while Tau still field lists that would only cost 2050 pts in old cost or even less. Even if they really ramp it up you won't see more than 2200 in old pts. The fact is that all the key Tau units got no changes and only the underplayed units got buffs. Only a fraction of the Necron dex went untouched, the fact that our most common Troops choice went down 2 ppm or 13% is huge, our most or second most used choice also going down 30 ppm or 18% is beyond amazing.

Farseer, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warlocks and Wave Serpents went up in pts as well. Striking Scorpions went down 3 ppm, Reece from Frontline Gaming says his Biel-tan footdar list is good, is that what's beating you up? Is that why you say they got buffed?

Necrons were weaker than Tyranids pre CA2018, they were stronger after. Ergo, Necrons got a bigger buff from CA2018 than Nids. Which is why you mostly see Nids topping as allies for Cult lists. The unit diversity for Nids has been abysmal IMO, where can I see these diverse lists you speak of? Do Exocrines, Harpies, Haruspexes, Hive Crones, Lictors, Maleceptors, Pyrovores, Tervigons, Toxicrenes, Tyranid Primes, Tyrannofexes, Deathleaper or the Red Terror get used? No, the majority of these buffs were too small to make them viable, so which units actually got buffs? The Swarmlord which was in my experience an already popular build, but overall CA2018 wasn't amazing for pure Nids.
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

 Fan67 wrote:


Spoiler:
Last tournament (over 150 people) necrons got one of the best overall results race-wise. So they are not weak now, not at all.

What needs overhaul is not the units, but the ideas behind them.

My ideas for the "overhaul" is more to get the Lore in line with Tabletop without breaking the game:

1) Necrons are masters over the material universe. They've holded up the Eye of Terror, almost closed the warp storm during Medusa V campaign (stupid space marines destroyed pylons).
Yet they inexplainably suffer from psychic armies.

What I propose:
"Gloom prism" shall be worded exactly like Cullexus aura OR shall provide "sisters of silence" type of buff aura to the <dynasty> units within 6". The spider carrier is targetable, so it will require certain finesse to protect it, yet the bonus will be worthwhile to bother.

C'tans are bane to warp forces. They shall be immune to psychic powers whatsoever like Sisters of Silence, OR ignore mortal wounds from psychic powers on a ridiculous roll like 2+.

Optional:
All necron units shall have in-built protection from psychic powers' mortal wounds (like Custodes) on 6+.

2) Gauss Weapons over last 6 editions went from the bane of all vehicles to the glorified bolter. It is SHAME 100% of the immortals are weilding tesla weapons instead of the iconic Gauss. Tesla should be niche anti-horde solution, instead of being better all around.
In 3-4edition single Necron Warrior shot could destroy Land Raider. It is a bit too much for 8ed, but still, Gauss needs buff.

What I propose is simple: on a 6 to wound Gauss weapon shall have AP-4 (effectively making Gauss Weapons a ranged version of Rending Claws). Heavier Gauss Weaponry can have better bonus, but for ubiquity and stylistic reasons I would rather make everything AP-5 on 6 to wound rather than inventing different wordings for different gauss weapons.

3) Inertialess Drives - the staple of necrontyr space and aircraft technology. Why the hell eldars have more agile planes?

What I propose: initially I wanted them to have minimum movement without mentioning of the facing. So necron flyer can fly 20" forward, then next turn 20" backward if he likes, but this is essentialy hover mode on steroids (albeit straight line moves). So i think copy-paste from aeldary aircraft will be enough.

4) Triarchs Praetorians - they are so useless right now.
While having Triarch keyword, triarch characters and so on would be nice - a simple deepstrike ability would give them enough purpose to be considered. Their profile in 8ed is a lackluster...

5) The unique feature of necrons in earlier editions was the ability to ignore invulnerable saves.
Nowadays it is much more common (null zone, death hex, khornate artifact of chaos knights, vindicare rounds etc.) and Necrons again are on the lackluster side being able to ignore Inv. saves at a rate of one attack per fight phase.

What I propose:
Scythes should ignore inv.saves by default, and stratagem Entropic Strike should be:
"Use this stratagem immediately after you fight with Necron Character armed with Warscythe. Make one extra hit roll against the target this Character attacked this phase, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds"

As an option: C'Tans should be able to ignore Inv.saved whatsoever by default as well, to make them in line with Callidus Sword.

Also shenanigans with invulnerable saves could be cool stratagem for Canoptek Spyders, Obelisks or Monolith.
I do not know which one is better, but 3CP once per battle stratagem canceling invulnerable saves for models within certain range would be awesome.

I think it could be named "Blackstone Resonance" and be available to both Monolith and Obelisk. 9" range to avoid cheese with deepstriking monolith would be enough.

I could go on and on...


I see where you're coming from but I think you're over egging it with that wishlist.

It wouldn't be unrealistic to request that wound rules of 6 with Gauss weaponry increase AP by 2.

Or that weapons like Hyper Phase swords ignore invulnerable saves on wound rolls of a 6.

I agree with you about Necron fliers, the pilots being completely immune to G-forces (they literally sit there in the open without a canopy, even when in space) should have some kind of ability. Maybe they can do a move-pivot-move where the minimum move distance is like 12"

Would dispute what you said about C'Tan and the Warp. I was under the impression the C'Tan were essentially defenseless against warp shenanigans, being entirely bound to the physical universe themselves. The reason Necrons went to such measures to counter the warp is precisely because they are so vulnerable to it.

Leading on from that, would suggest that Gloom Prisms become wargear for Crypteks.

Lastly Praetorians would be great if they had a WS2+ and BS2+ to represent the fact they've literally been fighting for millions of years, you'd think they'd have got the practice in! That change would require rewriting judgement of the Triarch strategem though.
   
Made in ru
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





Current version of Gloom prism on crypteks would be nice, but spyders need some superior option, in order to be viable.

Praetorians with 2+ skills will still be useless without Deepstrike. Only one specific character buffs their reanimation, they are fragile and lack access to orbs... and their damage output even with 2+ would be too low for the cost.

Lychguards have niche use right now, and they are superior to praetorians at everything.

Current Necron line lacks the feel of superior tech.

And another oversight of the codex in my opinion is the unquestionable domination of sautekh. Every other faction with most unique characters compensates that by having worse chapter tactic and stratagems.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Fan67 wrote:
Current version of Gloom prism on crypteks would be nice, but spyders need some superior option, in order to be viable.

Praetorians with 2+ skills will still be useless without Deepstrike. Only one specific character buffs their reanimation, they are fragile and lack access to orbs... and their damage output even with 2+ would be too low for the cost.

Lychguards have niche use right now, and they are superior to praetorians at everything.

Current Necron line lacks the feel of superior tech.

And another oversight of the codex in my opinion is the unquestionable domination of sautekh. Every other faction with most unique characters compensates that by having worse chapter tactic and stratagems.


It sounds like that Praetorians just need more flexible keywords for that complaint. After all, they really wouldn't need to be a MWBD if they have 2+ skills, and they've got the movement already. A basic Deep Strike and fixing the wording on the Orb and lastly giving them a better Strategem after that (+1 to wound would be worlds better than the hit one they have) and I could forsee them being a solid unit.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

What if Triarch praetorians had a 6" bubble that gave morale immunity? That might make them more useful.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if Triarch praetorians had a 6" bubble that gave morale immunity? That might make them more useful.

Not really. Chances are you're gonna do something else to make Silver Tide work.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if Triarch praetorians had a 6" bubble that gave morale immunity? That might make them more useful.

It would, but I'm not sure how much, I think they are already enough of a priority target over things you might want to make Fearless that it wouldn't be a big difference. You might be able to put a squad of 5 in an L ruin and get some value out of them by snaking 3-4 squads in range of their Aura and using them to counter-charge anything that comes near. I think they are fun as is, ideally they'd be 2-5 pts less expensive, but I enjoy them for what they are. I win a lot of my casual games where I use them, mostly because of the one squad of Immortals and one squad of Destroyers in that list, so GW would have to buff a tonne of units from other factions before I'd feel it was justified to buff Praetorians. They aren't viable for competitive but they aren't total trash either, except against plasma, but they should be trash against plasma, unless you maybe wanted to give them a 5++ or let them benefit from all Aura abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 17:57:40


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'm still a fan of the idea of them getting 2+ skills. It's a stat that isn't used at all and one that should be for them and Terminators and Aspect Leaders.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

How about if they could heroically intervene as if they were characters? They are all about that code of honour stuff
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I think a lot of the ideas in this thread are worthwhile and would go a long way to bringing Necrons in line. I would do the following;

- T7 for DDA, TS & Ghost Ark
- Cryptek & D.Lord significant point reductions
- Flayed Ones 10pts and 3D6 dropping lowest charge
- C'tan ignore invul saves
- Praetorians get BS2 WS2
- Rod of Covenant damage 2
- Warscthe damage 3, Dispersion shield 3++
- Allow Lychguard and Praetorians to mix weapons in squads
- Tesla Destructor damage 2
- Monolith 2+ save and reduce all damage by 1 (to minimum of 1)
- Particle whip 36" and AP-3
- Triarch Stalker's massive forelimbs +2 strength and AP-2
- Make gloom prism wargear that any Canoptek unit or Cryptek can take
- Increase all 3" auras to 6"

Just off the top of my head. None of these are enormous buffs, just obvious tweaks to help weak units and bring the army as a whole in line with everyone else

Warriors need to be fixed but I genuinely don't know how. Maybe re-introduce some kind of gauss rule that is only for flayers.


@ Vict
Spoiler:
 vict0988 wrote:

As far as I can see I've never personally attacked you, rebuking your bad ideas doesn't have anything to do with personal attacks.

Necrons being bottom half is not the same as saying they are one of the worst or bottom tier. I also didn't claim Necrons weren't weak because they got better in CA2018 or even that them being the most buffed faction in CA2018 makes them good, the pts costs they currently have make them good.

Necrons have more unit diversity than Tau in lists that make it to top 5 at big tournaments, only within the last 2 months have we seen a massive snaring of the range of Necron lists, but we still see some range, not really any less than Tau. I don't personally find most Tau lists that scary, only the Broadside and/or Riptide spam lists supported made invincible by OOLOS Drones.

Can you back that average up or do I have to go through the changes myself to prove that it isn't the case, I could be wrong but Necrons got a very hefty decrease in pts just on paper. In reality Necrons got the good end of the stick, with the practically mandatory 3 DDAs alone you save 90 pts, usually you see lists being about 2200 in old cost for Necrons, while Tau still field lists that would only cost 2050 pts in old cost or even less. Even if they really ramp it up you won't see more than 2200 in old pts. The fact is that all the key Tau units got no changes and only the underplayed units got buffs. Only a fraction of the Necron dex went untouched, the fact that our most common Troops choice went down 2 ppm or 13% is huge, our most or second most used choice also going down 30 ppm or 18% is beyond amazing.

Farseer, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warlocks and Wave Serpents went up in pts as well. Striking Scorpions went down 3 ppm, Reece from Frontline Gaming says his Biel-tan footdar list is good, is that what's beating you up? Is that why you say they got buffed?

Necrons were weaker than Tyranids pre CA2018, they were stronger after. Ergo, Necrons got a bigger buff from CA2018 than Nids. Which is why you mostly see Nids topping as allies for Cult lists. The unit diversity for Nids has been abysmal IMO, where can I see these diverse lists you speak of? Do Exocrines, Harpies, Haruspexes, Hive Crones, Lictors, Maleceptors, Pyrovores, Tervigons, Toxicrenes, Tyranid Primes, Tyrannofexes, Deathleaper or the Red Terror get used? No, the majority of these buffs were too small to make them viable, so which units actually got buffs? The Swarmlord which was in my experience an already popular build, but overall CA2018 wasn't amazing for pure Nids.


You continue to just proclaim your inherently flawed opinions as facts whilst belittling anyone you disagree with. You then go silent when you get proven wrong, ala the Necron thread. That's not the grounds for a strong argument.

Your first statement regarding CA18 and points makes absolutely no sense, perhaps re-read it.

More diversity than Tau? Citation needed. Tau are pretty cookie cutter in tournaments but so are Necrons, and have been since the codex was released. So what do you even mean by saying top 5 tournaments, lists that do well? Or just in general? Because it's easy to bring diverse lists if you don't care about losing. Pre-CA18 all Necron lists that did well had 3 Vaults with no variance. Now they all run 3 Doom Scythes and 2-3 DDA's, Imotekh and Immortals. With basically zero variance.

You keep saying how amazing it is that several Necron units went down ~30pts, but fail to acknowledge they were vastly over-pointed beforehand, which is why over half of the units were adjusted. But when you look through the points reductions and add them all up, dividing by the number of units changed, you'll find that Necrons went down on average about 21 points and Tau about 30 points. This is of course skewed by weapons and wargear because several Tau weapon options went down massively, but the conclusion remains the same.

Necrons are not stronger than Tyranids post-CA18, ergo Necrons did not get a bigger buff. See - it's easy to just make casual baseless remarks isn't it?

Your entire argument is based off the incorrect assumption that because Necrons were one of the most effected by CA18, they must now be good. Whilst failing to recognise they were terrible before CA18 and the reductions didn't go far enough to make them competitive outside of a single gimmick list.

I'm not going to bother with this any more because I know you don't have anything new to say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/29 13:22:02


 
   
Made in dk
Irked Necron Immortal






Cynista wrote:
I'm not going to bother with this any more because I know you don't have anything new to say.

Not perhabs because I refuted every one of your pts and you forgot that several other Craftworld units other than the one you mentioned got nerfed? You act like everything you say was handed down by god, saying my arguments and opinions are inherently flawed, do you even know what that means? In case you didn't know subjectivity is implied when you discuss something. Except when you just make personal attacks and accusations of wrong-doing, without pointing out exactly when and how that wrong-doing was done. Believe it or not, I don't want to push anyone out of the proposed rules or tactics community nor make anyone feel bad, maybe I do when people call me names and accuse me of doing this that or the other wrong, but I didn't start by saying how your every opinion is gak because it comes out of your keyboard, I said you have some opinions I disagree with and I don't see how that can be controversial when I pointed out exactly how and why you are wrong, meanwhile you say I belittle people? Have you read what YOU are writing?

I believe that Necrons are not the weakest faction because reason A, B and C is different from saying you're a prick for not agreeing with me and your opinions are inherently bad. How were any of my arguments inherently flawed? As long as they do not contradict themselves they are not inherently flawed. Like saying someone is nice and recently killed a dozen good people for fun is inherently flawed. Saying that you believe Necrons are stronger than some people on the internet make them out to be is not inherently a flawed argument.

Spoiler:
Your entire argument is based off the incorrect assumption that because Necrons were one of the most effected by CA18, they must now be good. Whilst failing to recognise they were terrible before CA18 and the reductions didn't go far enough to make them competitive outside of a single gimmick list.

That's a strawman. I already said that it is the current pts costs of our most competitive units that make it possible for Necrons to do well at tournaments and in general, it doesn't matter where the buffs came from or how big the buffs are in relation to other factions only that our current costs are pretty good in relation to those of other factions, top tier? Maybe not, maybe right below the middle, but saying Necrons are trash tier is ill-informed from all the tournaments Necrons have topped and how few Necron players attend tournaments.

You keep saying how amazing it is that several Necron units went down ~30pts, but fail to acknowledge they were vastly over-pointed beforehand, which is why over half of the units were adjusted. But when you look through the points reductions and add them all up, dividing by the number of units changed, you'll find that Necrons went down on average about 21 points and Tau about 30 points. This is of course skewed by weapons and wargear because several Tau weapon options went down massively, but the conclusion remains the same.

So if Tau had gotten a 1 pt DECREASE on 10 more Drone models they'd have an average reduction of 15 and therefore get less of a buff from CA2018 than Necrons got. You should become a politician. Nice try, now try listing the number of Tau units and Necrons units that went down 0-10%, 10-15%, 15-20% and more than 20% after wargear. The conclusion is as flawed as the methodology, how about you compare twip or win rate of Necrons pre and post CA2018 in tournaments and Tau pre and post CA2018 or your own win rate with Necrons compared to that of your buddies playing Tau.

If you lose more against Tau after CA2018 than before I don't even know what to tell you, my favourite list would be 2200 in old pts, my strongest list would be over 2200 pts, meanwhile Tau can field a triptide list with a bunch of shield drones, fire warriors, an Ethereal, the markerlight HQ, three Commanders using the exact same pts before and after CA2018 and those lists do amazingly well in tournaments, just as good as the other options available to the Tau now. Meanwhile Necrons had absolutely no luck in tournaments without at least two TVaults, that option got slashed and we got new options instead. The Doomwing is nowhere near mandatory. You know what I do want to belittle you if you if you lose more now than you used to, maybe your opponents started taking the game more seriously and trying to win and you got too caught up in whining about your faction not being in the top half and how everything GW ever does to you is gak, so learn to play and stop being an ass at people. You had a bunch of nice suggestions for how Necrons could be changed though
   
 
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