Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In 6th / 7th edition, players could ally Tau / Orks / Necrons / Eldar. Pretty much anything by Tyranids could be part of a combined army.

This changed in 8th, Xenos armies are limited to their own Codex. While there were certainly drawbacks to the old ally table, scrapping it has created some challenges.

On the one hand, I know a lot of people who have Tau detachments that are just gathering dust. It was never their primary army, they are not going to expand it, it was just there to add some shooting to an otherwise one-dimensional force. And now it's useless.

On the other hand, the experience of playing 40k is very different for a Xenos player. I frequently change up my CSM / Daemons army to try new playstyles. Especially with Necrons, they don't have that option - there are a couple builds that are decent but nothing truly competitive. Trying to talk to them about changes to Space Marines is tedious, the response is always "at least you can take allies and build a better army. We're stuck with what's in this book and don't stand a chance against power creep."

Getting tired of Xenos armies having to trading battle forged for a little bit of flexibility. There are many narrative reasons Orks could be fighting alongside Tau, Necrons could be fighting alongside Eldar. Feels like it's easy enough to put detachments together to form an army, why should they be so limited?

Has anyone experimented with house rules for Xenos allies in 8th edition? If so, any stories to share? One of my assumptions is that someone would want to do this, the resulting army would be better than what you could field from your own Codex. Xenos players - care to challenge this?

Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Yeah. Not saying the old ways didn't have their drawbacks.

Maybe instead of allowing Orks, disallow Eldar. They have multiple Codexes, other armies do not.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Yeah. Not saying the old ways didn't have their drawbacks.

Maybe instead of allowing Orks, disallow Eldar. They have multiple Codexes, other armies do not.

could work.

The problem is when it's the most competitive option. You could just pay extra cp to discourage competitive multi-faction armies. 3 cp if outside your factions. Seeing triptide splashed in other factions is unappealing to me, but the hobby aspect is interesting.

Generally speaking, I don't like the idea of allies that much. That could result in some truly broken combinations, where instead of building around your army's weaknesses and learning to adapt, you just stick a big ol' ally bandaid over it.

That said, with most keywords affecting members of the same faction, it shouldn't be as bad as it was previously. Throw in a limitation where allies from another faction could only be taken in a single patrol detachment, then you might have a balanced system.

Here's my thoughts on ally configurations for different xenos factions -

Tau not having allies could be solved by having them focus on auxiliary forces again. If Kroot could have an HQ unit, and rules that reward you for having an all kroot detachment that doesn't punish you for having a Tau detachment, you'll basically have an ally option. Ditto for Vespids, and maybe bring out some Gue'Vesa and Nicassars too. The advantage here could be that auxiliary forces don't have to follow the same aforementioned limitation of being stuck to a patrol, as they are technically part of the same faction / book.

Orks...eh, idk. I guess freeboota or Blood Axe mercenaries or something like that? In that case though it should be a one way affair - an imperial army can take an ork patrol, but an ork army can't take an imperial patrol.

Tyranids already have GSC. Which is kind of dumb as once Tyranids arrive they'll consume GSC, but lets assume that happens after the nids conquer the planet.

Necrons and Admech cultists could be fun. There was stuff in the 3rd ed codex hinting about that. Two way affair for them; it could be assumed that the Ad Mech heretics are being helped out by a small necron force, and vice versa.
One could even apply the same idea to Dark Hereticus / chaos.

Eldar and Dark Eldar already have lore about them assisting imperial forces. They probably won't assist Necrons though, being sworn enemies and all that.

I'm one of those Necron players who now has a T'au detachment gathering dust. I'm really close to just shelving the Necrons as well and giving up on 40k for awhile.

The last non-FW, non-LoW new unit release for Necrons was in 2012. I'm not counting the two resin-to-plastic HW re-releases. Those weren't really new. Allies at least let me walk into a store and say, "Oh, I could add that to my army." Now, there's nothing really to add and very few ways to realistically build an army.

I'd love to see Xenos allies come back, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'd REALLY love to see allies go away completely, or be restricted to a single detachment that doesn't generate CPs.

Wasn't forgebane earlier than that? We got a new cryptek.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wasn't forgebane earlier than that? We got a new cryptek.

I mean, we got a new plastic sculpt. We didn't get a new unit. I'm talking about new ways to play the army. I can get new Cryptek models every day of the week if I'm willing to put in some conversion time.

Admittedly, the new Cryptek model did come with a new piece of Wargear that increased the Cryptek's movement stat... but you typically want your Cryptek to stick close to slow moving units, so it's a weird upgrade. It definitely doesn't give you new army building options.

Its good for getting close enough to use the veil.
But yeah, if RP was at the end of the movement phase it would be more useful. It does work well with the GA, funnily enough, as the reroll is at the end of the move phase. Weird design, but that's how it works.

We got the voidscythe for the Overlord as well. The new FW Seraptek Heavy Construct is better looking than every other Necron FW kit IMO. Warriors, Lords and Monoliths could be updated to use the new rods, but do we even want that?

I was mostly thinking of fielding an Astra Militarum Detachment, I don't think I ever used the old ally rules, maybe once or twice, but I don't have it in me to do any conversion work anyway so it'd be something half-assed and I'd probably never use them. Necrons are so expensive that I don't really feel like taking any out of my list to fit in other factions. Would it even truly fix anything? 3 DDAs, 3 Doomscythes and a Guard Battalion? Nah. The idea of limiting it to 1 patrol is pretty good, but that just makes me want to bring a BA smash captain, I'd even have a fluff excuse if I was playing Mephrit.

It could also be a specialist detachment and come with a faction change and a small number of Stratagems, a relic and a WL trait to represent an Astra Militarum Necron vassal force or a Dark Mechanicum Skitarii force.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Taudar is the reason they started to keyword-lock cross-faction buffs. You can't Guide a battlesuit or use Doom with it because it isn't a Craftworld unit.

The major issue of Imperial Soup is people taking chunks of one list to plug holes in another with more efficient options; ex. Knights have a really efficient gun platform but have a hard time getting CP to fuel it or bodies to win scenarios, hence Dominus/Guard builds. If Xenos allies were allowed you'd start seeing small efficient packages of units stuck into another army to plug some hole; ex. Necron barges firing over the heads of Tau foot, or a Farseer and three Fire Prisms sitting and sniping in the backline over the heads of an Ork mob.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Taudar is the reason they started to keyword-lock cross-faction buffs. You can't Guide a battlesuit or use Doom with it because it isn't a Craftworld unit.

The major issue of Imperial Soup is people taking chunks of one list to plug holes in another with more efficient options; ex. Knights have a really efficient gun platform but have a hard time getting CP to fuel it or bodies to win scenarios, hence Dominus/Guard builds. If Xenos allies were allowed you'd start seeing small efficient packages of units stuck into another army to plug some hole; ex. Necron barges firing over the heads of Tau foot, or a Farseer and three Fire Prisms sitting and sniping in the backline over the heads of an Ork mob.

That sums it up pretty well.

I actually like how AoS handles allies. If I recall correctly, you can only take 1 allied unit for every 3 non-allied units in your army. You're also locked to a certain points amount... something like either 20 or 25%. Lastly, your allied units don't get any of their normal army wide rules.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Could've sworn the old way of just adding tau, led to things like Taudar.

Imo atleast the orks should get a mercenary keyword (freebotas) atleast that doesn't break battleforged but maybee limit them to one detachment?

Taudar is the reason they started to keyword-lock cross-faction buffs. You can't Guide a battlesuit or use Doom with it because it isn't a Craftworld unit.

The major issue of Imperial Soup is people taking chunks of one list to plug holes in another with more efficient options; ex. Knights have a really efficient gun platform but have a hard time getting CP to fuel it or bodies to win scenarios, hence Dominus/Guard builds. If Xenos allies were allowed you'd start seeing small efficient packages of units stuck into another army to plug some hole; ex. Necron barges firing over the heads of Tau foot, or a Farseer and three Fire Prisms sitting and sniping in the backline over the heads of an Ork mob.

Yes, exactly.

And that's not really a problem, is it? Imperial soup would be less of an issue because Necrorks would suddenly be a thing. Tauranids might even have the potential to win a tournament or two.

The only army I would not give it to is Eldar. They don't need it.

But maybe this would mean Xenos players (other than Eldar) would be more than target practice for Loyalist armies. Would love to see that.

Always fancied the idea of a Chaos Sorcerer manipulating lesser creatures of a tyranid swarm. Anything that relies on a synapse creature such as the gaunts.

SamusDrake wrote:
Always fancied the idea of a Chaos Sorcerer manipulating lesser creatures of a tyranid swarm. Anything that relies on a synapse creature such as the gaunts.

There is precedent in the GSC codex about a cult going full nurgle.
Which would make for a really awesome side project.

Not Online!!! wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Always fancied the idea of a Chaos Sorcerer manipulating lesser creatures of a tyranid swarm. Anything that relies on a synapse creature such as the gaunts.

There is precedent in the GSC codex about a cult going full nurgle.
Which would make for a really awesome side project.

Thats a good match up!

SamusDrake wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Always fancied the idea of a Chaos Sorcerer manipulating lesser creatures of a tyranid swarm. Anything that relies on a synapse creature such as the gaunts.

There is precedent in the GSC codex about a cult going full nurgle.
Which would make for a really awesome side project.

Thats a good match up!

It's also how i consider switching up if GW finally admits to applying the Coup de gracé to my beloved renegades.

Atleast the GSC have a working codex

I would prefer if they expanded the xenos lines to include allies for all of them. For example;

Orks - Grot revolushun ala gloomspite gits in AOS.
Tau - expanded Kroot and auxiliaries obvs.
Necrons - some sort of slave race? C'tan expansion? Not sure what allies would suit to be honest. Perhaps a splinter faction of Necrons?
Tyranids - already have GSC.
Aeldari - already have each other.

Techpriest cultists would be great for necrons. They hinted about that in the 3rd ed book. Or just human worshippers in general. If GW is going to make them Egyptians in space, might as well rip off the Goa'uld

Goa'uld even have pyramid ships and death gliders night scythes.

Spoilered because I cannot into images.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Necrons - some sort of slave race? C'tan expansion? Not sure what allies would suit to be honest. Perhaps a splinter faction of Necrons?

Maybe a 40K counter part of the Nighthaunts?

It honestly feel like no one believes in playing Narrative games. Even using points.

Want guard and Necrons? Go for it. The guard have all been mindshackle scarabed and are being used as slave fodder by the Necrons overlords; throwing them against their enemies and weakening them while the Necrons forces stay strong and come phasing in later.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
It honestly feel like no one believes in playing Narrative games. Even using points.

Want guard and Necrons? Go for it. The guard have all been mindshackle scarabed and are being used as slave fodder by the Necrons overlords; throwing them against their enemies and weakening them while the Necrons forces stay strong and come phasing in later.

I think it's just a matter of matched play being easier to negotiate. Most of my games these days are played at the weekly friendly league night. Nothing is stopping my opponent and I from playing a narrative game, but then we'd have to figure out which FAQs for matched play do and don't count, decide whether or not my farseers throwing multiple executioners around each turn is a bit much, work out whether or not the narrative mission favors one of our armies enough that we ought to tone ourselves down in favor of a more even game, etc.

Matched play is basically just double-checking which of several houserules we're using and eyeballing our lists to make sure we're on roughly even footing.

Plus, part of the fun of narrative games is coming up with the story behind it. We tend to pair off on the fly at league night based on who actually showed up, so there's not really enough time to work out a plot and theme armies appropriately. But if my opponent asked to use guard and 'crons together because he thought it sounded fun, I'd be all for it as long as he wasn't obviously just cheezing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I would prefer if they expanded the xenos lines to include allies for all of them. For example;

Orks - Grot revolushun ala gloomspite gits in AOS.
Tau - expanded Kroot and auxiliaries obvs.
Necrons - some sort of slave race? C'tan expansion? Not sure what allies would suit to be honest. Perhaps a splinter faction of Necrons?
Tyranids - already have GSC.
Aeldari - already have each other.

Agreed on all of those. Would love for corsairs and exodites to get some love, but aeldari are in a good place as-is.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Codex: Mercenaries. 'Crons could reasonably pay off some freebootaz or corsairs or kroot if their tomb world was having a rough wake up.

Let be honest nobody want to face Tau backed with a horde of boys competent in melee

What would we call that? Tork? Oau?

 fraser1191 wrote:
Let be honest nobody want to face Tau backed with a horde of boys competent in melee

What would we call that? Tork? Oau?

Taudar, because psy is and was the bigger weakness.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Let be honest nobody want to face Tau backed with a horde of boys competent in melee

What would we call that? Tork? Oau?

Tau already have Kroot for that though. Kroot have traditionally been the melee supplement for a Tau force. Its just that GW forgot that and started to give Tau big robots instead of focusing on what they should have; the fact that Tau is an Empire of different alien races.
Vespids need to be fleshed out
Nicassars in specialized battle suits (or some other psychic race. Wasn't there a squid headed race?) need to be a thing
Kroot needs more love. Apparently they lost their S4, sniper rifles and infiltrate, and that's just sad

In 6th/7th orks and necrons could both ally with chaos space marines. I wouldn't mind seeing those both return. This would exclude demons of course for fluff and balance.

Personally I'm fine with them allies not existing matched play wise, it was weird enough with the 6th/7th combo teams that didn't match at all. If people want to do it via narrative/open play or if its an agreement with friends, especially for 2v2s/3v3s I think its fine. But outside of that I think its too ripe for abuse.

I mean removing allies would be a great option. Every army having to fight with its own strengths and weaknesses would certainly help balance things. But that's not going to happen at this point. If GW really wanted to reign allies in they would have done it after two years. The least they could do is give that option to everyone.