40k Rumours - Space Marines, Black Templars vs Orks box and Ghazghkull - UPDATED OP 21.9.19

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**Deadshot**

BrianDavion wrote:
xKillGorex wrote:
So going by the release for other chapters, when the Black Templar’s drop it’s a safe bet that we are looking at maybe a Primaris size emperors champion and upgrade pack.

Hope they don’t stop the chapter upgrade box that’s already out as it’s not a bad box .

well a primarisized character of some type. Black templars have a number of (absolutely AWESOME) characters to choose from.

I believe the Emperor's champion would be an ideal candidate A) from lore, the EC is literally whichever guy had a vision the night before battle B) They have a fantastic model but in finecast, so to be replaced with a plastic Primaris would be excellent.

That said, from lore it would mean neglecting to don the Armour of Faith but then again, Korsarro Khan just up and trashed his Moondrakken relic bike so I dount GW care about that

**Deadshot**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
I believe the Emperor's champion would be an ideal candidate A) from lore, the EC is literally whichever guy had a vision the night before battle B) They have a fantastic model but in finecast, so to be replaced with a plastic Primaris would be excellent.
That would suck though.

Imagine you're a Black Templar. You've been on a near-constant crusade for the past 250 years. You have had to replace the chains that hold your weapons to your armour dozens of times after they got so gunked up with gore and viscera that no amount of cleaning would help. You've worn the teeth out on more Chainswords than you can count. The brass from the bolt pistol rounds you fired could cover the floors of the Emperor's palace twice over.

And then here comes this giganto-Marine who's been in stasis for 10,000 years, has never seen a real fight in his life, and he got a vision from the Emperor and gets the sword? WTF???

To be fair, that could happen with or without Primaris involved. Anyone from High Marshall Helbrecht himself rim down to the lowliest Initiate could receive the vision. The BT are religious AF, they aren't going to question the Emperor's infinite wisdom.

**Deadshot**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe. But I could also see Emperor's Champion turning from a model into a strat, similar to Lone Wolves, and GW doing Grimaldus or so. Or even nothing at all, if they stick to "one primarified Character per Supplement" and do Lysander instead.

That's assuming that Black Templars and Crimson Fists will be rolled into the Imperial Fist supplement. I mean, BT are guarenteed their own book considering they got unique rules for the last 3 editions/4 codexes, but the Crimson Fists are also getting their own tactics in 8th V2 as opposed to just using Imperial Fists as per, say, 6-7th ed.

**Deadshot**

ekwatts wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given that the existing Marine heads (Beakies notwithstanding) fit with Primaris Marines, surely that means they work the other way around?

I ask because a few of those Iron Hands heads would look great on a few Iron Hand Deathwatch Marines.

As far as I'm aware, the heads and shoulder pads on Primaris/regular marines are completely interchangeable.

Shoulder pads are, Terminator/Gravis excepted. Almost all space marine heads are interchangable but there are exceptions when it comes to collared models, like the Mk8 in the tactical squad, Sternguard, veteran updates, BT upgrades, Deathwatch Vets and Primaris. The majority of the Mk8 don't fit normal MK7 helmets well at all, and the Deathwatch can only fit their unique, flat face helmets or bare heads. MK8 and MK10 don't fit Beakie helmets whatsoever, the nosecone doesn't allow for it.

**Deadshot**

Galef wrote:
I just had a horrible thought. What if He'stan and Lysander aren't getting Primaris models because they died in the process?
I remember there being some fluff stating that some older marines don't make it through. I think even Calgar died in the process, but was revived.

It made sense to create a new Character for IH because they didn't have a named character before. UMs have loads of named characters, so it didn't make sense to give them MORE.
But WS & RG only have their 1 named character and each of those got upgraded.
Sallies and IF also each had 1 named character. So why aren't they following the pattern?

Maybe because He'stan and Lysander are dead now?

-

Well, technically speaking all upgraded marines died. Its a necessary part of the process to die and be brought back as a Primaris.

But you might be onto something. Then again, it may just be fluff reasons. As Forgefather, Vulkan's weapons and armour would be passed down to his successor, who could be primaris. Lysander's hammer is likewise to be passed down. But, experience is something that cannot be passed on. Perhaps Vulkan considered his knowledge, resources and contacts too valuable to the hunt of the relics to risk in a procedure with a 61% chance of failure. Likewise, Lysander represents one of the oldest Astartes in existence, second perhaps to Commander Dante. His knowledge of past centuries, of warfare, and as an icon to his fellow Astartes, was probably too much to risk. OR, it could just be in defiance of Guilliman, as his Primarch Dorn did before him.

**Deadshot**

Nostromodamus wrote:How does the fisty bloke work is pipboy with that huge hand?

Via the neurological connection that all Space Marines have to their armour? Ie, controls it with his mind and the screen is just for visual readouts.

Galef wrote:Details I noticed and like:
-Adrax's shin plate are solid, including the knees. We haven't seen this for Primaris.
-His hammer is rounded, which gives it a more 'artisan" look compared to the blocky, unrefined look of the square hammers

I noticed these things too, and I really like the design of the armour. You can see the solid shinplate, even with the Primaris "lip," which is very very reminiscent of the Mk6 Corvus armour. You can also see the chestpiece with the cabling and central vent that is again, very reminiscent of Corvus armour

**Deadshot**

Warpig1815 wrote:I'm not sure what the point of contention is regarding Adrax Agatone getting a model. He's been part of the lore since Salamander was publishing in 2009, and he's not even a one hit wonder in that his character is developed throughout the events of Firedrake and Nocturne. In comparison, Vulkan He'Stan gets very limited screen-time in Firedrake (Where he mostly acts as a foil to the bellicose Veteran Sergeant Zek Tsu'Gan), and a bit of an expansion in a short story 'Forgefather'.

In terms of actual deeds done, Agatone is his own man - He'Stan is following a set path that countless Forgefathers have done before. He quite simply isn't a typical Salamander, even if he is revered by them. Even the relics he has 'recovered' are slightly odd, in that (Spear excluded) they're relics that weren't selected for preservation by the original Forgefather when Vulkan left for the Dropsite Massacre (Which is the origin of the 7, then somehow 9, Relics of Vulkan), and more to the point - Vulkan was actually wearing these when he got to Isstvan V, and curiously they were somehow not instantly vaporised when he got mulched by a tactical thermonuclear warhead (As the rest of his armour definitely was)...

In all, Agatone make sense to be Primarised - He's supported in the Codex and supported in the lore by books that most Salamanders fans will have read (Being as it's their own dedicated series). For those of you who are unfamiliar with Salamander's lore, one of the key points of the Salamander's Trilogy, and the follow up 'Rebirth' (That Nick Kyme seemed to drop like a ton of hot bricks...) is that Veteran Sergeant Zek Tsu'gan is very hot-blooded, and is forced to go renegade/mercenary for the Inquisition after being captured by Chaos and mind controlled. However, one of the few things to calm him is the presence of the Forgefather. One almost wonders if the abrupt hiatus of the next phase of Salamanders books coincided with the initiation of the Primaris stuff - and if He'Stan was destined to be killed off and replaced by 'Vulkan Tsu'Gan'. Hence, why we may not get a model for him...

I think the contention doesn't lie with Adrax himself, but rather, why he and by extension, Garadon, are getting Primaris models instead of upgrading Vulkan and Lysander as has been the case with Khan, Shrike, Calgar and Tigurius thus far. As in, why not bring those old and Finecast models up to date with plastic minis. He sounds like a pretty cool character but I think people are just worried about their favourites like Vulkan vanishing.

On a side note, for anyone interested I did a quick mock-up of Tor Garadon with an Aggressor helmet and it improves the model significantly

**Deadshot**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's amazing the difference a couple of head swaps can make.

Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!

**Deadshot**

changemod wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!
The sad reality of using the Beakie helmet that's on Shrike's belt rather than, say, the new one from the Raven Guard sprue.

The problem is that whilst the belt helmet is presumably awkward to remove cleanly and repair, it has a unique decoration on the forehead.

The helmet is one problem and the moldlines on it are a consequence of being belt mounted, but even still, all the round parts of the model are ruined by lines. Also look at the legs. Smooth rounded shins knees and thigh armour destroyed by lines. Those are pretty extreme but they shojld never have been there to begin with, they should have been on the side like most modern kits.

**Deadshot**

Jidmah wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
drbored wrote:
Each supplement has come with 1 kit and a few character models. We're still waiting on Suppressors, Infiltrators, and the Impulsor. It'd be great if we got all three of those with Salamanders and Imperial Fists, but I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to be waiting another month for the rest of that release.
Suppressors don't have a kit. They're Shadowspear only and look to be staying that way.

They'll probably get release once the box goes out of print, like the buggies from speed freeks.

Isn't the box already out of print? Hence why the Lieutenant, Librarian and Captain are all released as clampacks?

**Deadshot**

tneva82 wrote:
Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.

I'll agree with you there, as a Marine and also non-marine player. But particularly, I can think of just 1 single unit locked into a box set and that would be the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium. Sure, unique models such as Haldor Icepelt or the Dark Vengeance sculpts or AoBR for example, but actual UNITS in the codex, only the Gravis Captain as a way to incentivise sales of the starter kit.

**Deadshot**

Irbis wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.

I'll agree with you there, as a Marine and also non-marine player. But particularly, I can think of just 1 single unit locked into a box set and that would be the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium. Sure, unique models such as Haldor Icepelt or the Dark Vengeance sculpts or AoBR for example, but actual UNITS in the codex, only the Gravis Captain as a way to incentivise sales of the starter kit.

Primaris Ancient and bolt carbine Lt?

Then there are cultists from DV with several options that were never released at all, ditto for all 3 DA characters in DV...

Oguhmek wrote:Deffkoptas... still waiting.

Fair call on the Primaris Ancient forgot him, just him and the Gravis Cap. The lieutenant doesn't come under what I'm describing as he is just a Primaris Lieutenant - I shouldn't have to list the number of Primaris Lt. models out there. You can still legally field a Primaris Lieutenant using an existing model without any alterations whatsoever. Ancient and Captain however, only available through DI or conversions.

Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.

Same with the DV characters. They are just a Captain, Librarian and Chaplain. Special models, yes but functionally no different than any other chaplain, captain or librarian model available. Same with the Battle for Macragge Tactical Squad, Genestealers and Termagaunts, the AoBR Captain, Dreadnought, Tacts, Termies, Boyz, Nobs, Boss and Deffkoptas.

On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.

**Deadshot**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.
Some of them were. They're missing unit leaders and weapon upgrades though. Plus, if you want cultists you have to get the same 5 poses, over and over.

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.

Not with all of their 2 weapon options.

Voss wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.

Really? I wouldn't expect that- Those are mono-pause models in colored plastic, with no weapon options. Not the sort of thing that usually shows up in start collecting boxes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:

Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.

Yeah, no. Over half the unit is missing. You might as well argue that these
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadians-5-models-2017
and these
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Easy-To-Build-Ork-Boyz-2018
are good enough on their own to make full guard squads and ork mobs.

For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

**Deadshot**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Yes but you're wrong. In this WYSIWYG world we now live in, there is no way for me to purchase Deffkoptas with Kopta Rokkits from GW. It's as simple as that. To throw your own point back at you - there are separate models for the Captain, he just isn't in his Gravis armour loadout.

Gravis Captain is a seperate unit entry to Captain. You can buy a unit called "Deffkoptas" (maybe, are they still on sale?), you can't buy a unit called Gravis Captain.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Don't care what you want in the 'record.' Fielding a unit in the appropriate current codex (not even the index) by buying a unit with its full range of options from GW should be the bottom rung standard. That they're lacking sergeants, weapons, etc means they can't be fielded with no conversions, counts as or anything else.
More than a few things haven't met that basic standard for years- moving on from things that were in starter boxes, we can include eldar aspect warriors, since almost all exarchs lack their alternate loadouts, for some they never existed at all, despite nearly three decades rolling by.

I wasn't discussing loadouts - I was discussing unit entries. You are right in that they are below standard but again, you're talking about something different than me - which us that units can't be played at all without conversion. You can play Aspect Warriors without conversion. Closer to what I'm discussing is the Tervigon, Tyrannofex, Mycetic Spores, Doom of Malantai,back un 5th Ed Tyranids - playable units, no models except those didnt even come in a starter box.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oguhmek wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Well, if we are going to be picky, the metal deffkopta was released as a special character for the Gorkamorka game, and the plastic ones in AoBR were the first ”proper” wh40k models. So I’m still waiting.

Not being picky, just restating my points of discussion - unit entries unavailable outside boxsets. Idk if the metal models are still sold, but currently I know Gravis Captain, Primaris Ancient, Suppressors, fall into that category.