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Made in us
Wing Commander





So,

Over the past few weeks, I've seen maybe 2-3 times (out of maybe 5-10 games with hundreds of models moving) players "accidently" give their models an extra inch on the movement.

So in the movement phase, they measure their distance, pick up on model out of a unit, and place it as a "test" model, just to see what would be able to see it, shoot it, etc. Then when they move the model back it's gained a slight bit, maybe half an inch. Problem is this happens so quickly I only caught it 2-3 times, and wasn't even looking for it. It just so happened I did the math at the end of my turn, and knew that he couldn't move far enough without an advance to be able to "see" my units. So when he declared that he could, I was taken aback.

I started asking him to do one of two things, either place a penny "golf style" to know the model you picked up has to be behind that penny, or just not pick up a model when measuring movement. It lead to a real slow down and I felt back for essentially accusing someone of cheating. This exact problem then presented itself in the next game (different opponent) as well, where movement distances were either mistaken or fudged.

Am I wrong for asking players to not move their models or put a place keeper to mark where they moved it from?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Absolutely not. For courtesy I actually use an empty base.

CaptainStabby wrote:
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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Sounds like players are just being too casual with movement. Ask them to be sure of where the model was placed or use a marker to test LoS, not the model itself.

It's not really a big issue outside of a tournament. It's more than likely just bad habits picked up by casual players.

Don't feel bad about bringing it up.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Locally we used to use drinks straws cut to 6" less the width of a base, though mainly because it was the quickest way to move models.

But we didn't have any of the pre-movement movement, if you'd picked up and put your model that's where it was ending its phase for the most part.
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

I use the old chess rule - hand off the mini, that’s its final position. We usually also only measure to a position and don’t pick the mini up unless the move has been committed.

I don’t recall ever running into this issue, but my 40K games are normally casual enough that a 1/2” or so isn’t going to matter. X-Wing on the other hand...I’ve had games that were made or broken by mm’s.

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I have a real issue with "Sloppy movement". Basically people moving models "about this far", or not pivoting fliers correctly, or moving the front model of a conga line (who were moving through a gap) then moving everyone else without measuring, so that the guys in the back end up gaining 3-4" sometimes.

It's even worse in X-Wing and Gaslands, when people use templates wrong or sloppily, but it's ever present in 40k.


I usually watch and just say "how far did that guy move?", and suddenly they're back in the conga line. Some people don't think it matters, other know exactly what they're doing.

Never encountered people moving a model, moving it back, then moving it again. Pre-measuring is allowed, but a model should only be moved when you're moving it. Otherwise, this can happen.

I personally try to stay as meticulous with movement as possible. It doesn't slow the game down, it's just a good habit to get into.

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
4/0/1 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





When this happens at a FLGS, I just let it slide for the most part. If this is a recurring pattern, I move to finish the game as fast as possible and never play with him again.

When this happens at a garagehammer, we fully let it slide and just bash on him after the game and brew it for a few months. "You sure you don't need that extra inch there buddy?"
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Stretchy tape has been a minor form of cheating since warhammer and 40k have been a thing. There have been dozens of articles on this subject since the inception of the internet.

This runs the gambit of unintentional sloppy play where people are just quickly moving dudes forward (i'd say about 75% of this comes from sloppy play and is not intentional) and the other 25% is intentional where models get nudged 1/2 - 1" full inch because most people don't notice or care because exact detailed measuring makes the game go longer.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





So, casual vs. playing the game is what I'm worried about. None of these were what I would call seriously competitive. But again, if I am taking the time to play the game, I expect we play by the same standard.

I feel like a crusty old hard ass telling him I did the math before hand to prevent him from doing exactly what he was doing, (I had no proof it was all in my head) so I felt like it was robbing the fun out of the game.

In the end none of it made the slightest difference, and I can forgive new play mistakes. I should have made a learning moment out of it in hind sight.

What what you just did beneficial to you, or to me? Because you just moved your big tasty shooty Aggressors within 8" of my Custodes. Which you likely won't kill, but they will kill you on the next turn. So a better move would likely have been: XYZ.

I need to learn to be more of a teacher.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

I'm guilty of this, especially with my ork army, though I do my damnedest to move the first rank of orks accurately but don't worry about the rest.

But yeah, I've moved units, thought better, and tried to move them back or fudge where I move them to a bit.

I wouldn't mind being called out, corrected, or asked to use a proxy if playing someone though.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

Partly, this is expectation based. People will generally play to the level of their playing partners - if you don’t seem to care, they often won’t either.

If you make it clear (politely) that as-close-to-exact movement is something you expect, and that it affects your enjoyment of the game, most reasonable people will be accommodating.

But if you don’t let your opponent know your expectations, well, people are bad at reading other people’s minds - and common sense doesn’t come as naturally as most people think.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





See it all the time, and to be honest, unless it feels blatant, I don't care (unless it specifically has an effect that wasn't possible with an exact move).

Funniest thing i witnessed was a guy playing Space Wolves (back in 3rd) who moved his models Turn 1 and got a charge off vs enemy player. Player said he moved too far, other protested, etc. Then defending calmly pointed out deployment requirements and how it was mathematically impossible to have made that charge Turn 1. Other guy just went silent.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




40K makes me really appreciate the precision moment people practiced in Warmahordes. I use a movement stick for my models.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





No, not really.

Considering that my approach to movement is usually of the "move one, put the rest in a blob behind him" method unless it's really important, I find it safe to assume that the little extra movement will be inconsequential, and not judge for sloppy movement.

And as far as "doing the math" goes, I generally consider estimations of "can you charge me" to be accurate, but not "can you see me". "Can you see me" is dependent upon several models' volume, and there's good odds that, unless you're like in the crook of an "L" or "U" shaped building, 5-6" of movement can expose a track horn or something, and an infantryman around the corner still has his base volume sticking out an inch or more behind the wall that movement perpendicular to the line of fire can expose. "Can you charge me" doesn't really check the model's volume, only its footprint from closest point to closest point, so I consider it fairly accurate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 15:46:10


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No, not really.

Considering that my approach to movement is usually of the "move one, put the rest in a blob behind him" method unless it's really important, I find it safe to assume that the little extra movement will be inconsequential, and not judge for sloppy movement.

And as far as "doing the math" goes, I generally consider estimations of "can you charge me" to be accurate, but not "can you see me". "Can you see me" is dependent upon several models' volume, and there's good odds that, unless you're like in the crook of an "L" or "U" shaped building, 5-6" of movement can expose a track horn or something, and an infantryman around the corner still has his base volume sticking out an inch or more behind the wall that movement perpendicular to the line of fire can expose. "Can you charge me" doesn't really check the model's volume, only its footprint from closest point to closest point, so I consider it fairly accurate.


Your method seems likely to promote arguments. Arguments are no fun. Don't you want to have fun?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 bullyboy wrote:
Funniest thing i witnessed was a guy playing Space Wolves (back in 3rd) who moved his models Turn 1 and got a charge off vs enemy player. Player said he moved too far, other protested, etc. Then defending calmly pointed out deployment requirements and how it was mathematically impossible to have made that charge Turn 1. Other guy just went silent.
The citadel boards were always handy for first turn movement in the older editions. Move your vehicle to the line and no further, and only if it was directly ahead of where it started.

Favourite two that spring to mind was a guy who kept moving the measuring tape with the model to gain distance, and the one time he as referee mis-replaced a players model in cover and then declared that there was no line of sight and the shot didn't count.
Of course this was the same guy that once set up his table and models ahead of time, entrenched artillery across a field of non-cover granting tank traps and razorwire with pre-positioned range markers (and still lost).
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Reemule wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No, not really.

Considering that my approach to movement is usually of the "move one, put the rest in a blob behind him" method unless it's really important, I find it safe to assume that the little extra movement will be inconsequential, and not judge for sloppy movement.

And as far as "doing the math" goes, I generally consider estimations of "can you charge me" to be accurate, but not "can you see me". "Can you see me" is dependent upon several models' volume, and there's good odds that, unless you're like in the crook of an "L" or "U" shaped building, 5-6" of movement can expose a track horn or something, and an infantryman around the corner still has his base volume sticking out an inch or more behind the wall that movement perpendicular to the line of fire can expose. "Can you charge me" doesn't really check the model's volume, only its footprint from closest point to closest point, so I consider it fairly accurate.


Your method seems likely to promote arguments. Arguments are no fun. Don't you want to have fun?


I mean, I've got 80 more guys to go. I will sit down and move each individually if asked, but nobody complains, and it's unlikely that a half inch for a guy at the trail end of the unit will prove decisive to anything, since he doesn't matter for charge, his individual difference in shooting is small, and the chance of it having made a difference for his shooting is tiny. It's pretty common among the people I play with actually, especially with horde armies. A couple of guys have movement trays to speed up their movement too.

I've been challenged on it only once, in a competitive setting, because I would run my clock out if I stopped and measured each and every guardsman individually. I just stopped moving guys I didn't care about to make time.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/05 16:13:40


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





I find that maintaining relative distance (as opposed to absolute) keeps most movement based arguments in check.

Pre-measure distance defensively - if an enemy unit w/ 5" M that was more than 17" away from mine all of a sudden tries to declare charge/double tap with 24" RP weapon against it me after moving not directly towards the unit, I call it out.

"Your unit was at least 17" away at the end of my turn, and you moved that unit slightly diagonally to move around the terrain. There's no way that unit can be within 12" of my unit."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 16:15:33


 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant



Sioux Falls, SD

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Reemule wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No, not really.

Considering that my approach to movement is usually of the "move one, put the rest in a blob behind him" method unless it's really important, I find it safe to assume that the little extra movement will be inconsequential, and not judge for sloppy movement.

And as far as "doing the math" goes, I generally consider estimations of "can you charge me" to be accurate, but not "can you see me". "Can you see me" is dependent upon several models' volume, and there's good odds that, unless you're like in the crook of an "L" or "U" shaped building, 5-6" of movement can expose a track horn or something, and an infantryman around the corner still has his base volume sticking out an inch or more behind the wall that movement perpendicular to the line of fire can expose. "Can you charge me" doesn't really check the model's volume, only its footprint from closest point to closest point, so I consider it fairly accurate.


Your method seems likely to promote arguments. Arguments are no fun. Don't you want to have fun?


I mean, I've got 80 more guys to go. I will sit down and move each individually if asked, but nobody complains, and it's unlikely that a half inch for a guy at the trail end of the unit will prove decisive to anything, since he doesn't matter for charge, his individual difference in shooting is small, and the chance of it having made a difference for his shooting is tiny. It's pretty common among the people I play with actually, especially with horde armies. A couple of guys have movement trays to speed up their movement too.

I've been challenged on it only once, in a competitive setting, because I would run my clock out if I stopped and measured each and every guardsman individually. I just stopped moving guys I didn't care about to make time.


This is a situation where I don’t mind it at all. I also let my opponent ignore measuring precisely when the guy with a 14” move is going to move far less than it’s movement because a unit is only 8” or 9” ahead of it. Same with close combat if he needed ~6” to get everyone into cc and rolls a 8.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 16:21:37


Violence is never the answer, violence is always the question. And the answer is always yes.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Agile Revenant Titan





London, UK

I've had a few games recently where this has happened. Especially with Orks, it makes a big difference when it comes to shooting, charging etc. so I make sure they do everything properly. It might seem nit picky, but if I'm playing the game properly, so should my opponent.
I even had a game where my opponent didn't screen properly and after measuring everything he "bumped" some grots with his tape measure and claimed he hadn't moved them, all so I couldn't deep strike some banshees into his mek guns.
Needless to say, I won't be playing him again.

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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I had notice this a lot with 40k players coming over to warmachine, Not all 40k players seem to do this.

But a few i have notice, its probably not as big a deal in 40k but still annoying when it is.
We have had charges not add up a few times, and shooting that is in range for similar reasons.
It should not add much time just holding the tape measure and making sure nothing is over it, if you need every bit of it. Take your time should be the easy answer.
Seen it far less in kill team, but the same players i had to scold in warmachine and 40k, Seem to have been the ones to bring it over.
And none of them are the ones playing horde armys, So i do not even think it is that. The two horde army players i familiar with do not do this, at least not deliberately or consistently
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Before 40k, I played skirmish games where if you're 1mm out, you're out, so I was quite surprised to see most people measure somewhat more loosely in 40k, however I'm used to it now. I always try to measure as accurately as possible (I find hard plastic rulers cut to various lengths often help with that) but in a friendly game if my opponent wasn't being quite so rigorous I'd almost certainly let it lie, and just sigh inwardly (file it with other pet peeves such as 'hard-to-read dice' and 'no rulebook only battlescribe'). In my opinion I've yet to see anyone do it deliberately to cheat, I guess I'd say something then. I may have just been lucky though, as my opponents so far are usually pretty good with measuring. No one has done anything as egregious as the example in the OP.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Generally, if I need to test the position of a model, I mark the point that the model was at, and not the position of where I'm moving it to. So, for example, I'll put my finger down on the front corner of say a Chaos Rhino, then hold that finger in place as I put the Rhino itself somewhere in range. If I'm not happy, I put the Rhino back with my finger touching the same points. Helps insure that I don't accidentally gain any extra distance.

 Galef wrote:
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Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Douglasville, GA

90% of my games are "beer and pretzel" games, so generally me and my buddies just measure for the closest model and then pile everyone else in behind it. Competitively, I'll measure for each one, or (to save time) just deliberately short-change myself on distance (4.5" instead of 5", for example).
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I will admit I'm often sloppy with the movement of models, but only if I'm moving it obviously less than the max move distance. Like if I have a 12" movement range on a Knight, I might move it ~8", then maybe adjust it an inch or so. It's still well within it's max movement range, I just kinda fiddle with it to ensure I have sight to things.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Yarium wrote:
Generally, if I need to test the position of a model, I mark the point that the model was at, and not the position of where I'm moving it to. So, for example, I'll put my finger down on the front corner of say a Chaos Rhino, then hold that finger in place as I put the Rhino itself somewhere in range. If I'm not happy, I put the Rhino back with my finger touching the same points. Helps insure that I don't accidentally gain any extra distance.

Yep, this. Or you can place a die there to mark the spot instead of a finger.

With big hordes I'm perfectly OK with people measuring the distance of the closest and furthest model accurately and then just kinda lumping the rest in between them. Doing it otherwise just takes way too long and it rarely matters at all.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





I think it's been answered and explained. If you are 18" away, and your model has 5" movement, there is no possible way that your "unit" got within charge range, and that should be it. I don't care how many times you measured it. You were 18" away at the start of this turn.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





There's a guy in our group who is very sloppy with his movement. Sometimes he'll manage a bonus of as much as 3" on faster units. Worse is when he fails a charge by a half inch he'll say "that's close enough, right?" or "you won't give that to me?". He is used to people calling him on it so it's not a huge deal, especially since he's not a very strong player.
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







It may or may not be intentional cheating; it may be a matter of perspective (depth perception isn't as precise as lining things up, so from different angles a model may appear to have moved more/less independent of how much it actually moved).

I try and stick to touch-move rules myself but I find I don't take 40k seriously enough to care about an inch or two either way; I only call people out on movement if they're doing something obviously wrong (measuring from the front of the vehicle to the back of the vehicle, for instance).

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[DCM]
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 flandarz wrote:
90% of my games are "beer and pretzel" games, so generally me and my buddies just measure for the closest model and then pile everyone else in behind it. Competitively, I'll measure for each one, or (to save time) just deliberately short-change myself on distance (4.5" instead of 5", for example).


That is pretty much how we did it, when I still actively played. Measure one model, move the rest no further up. The biggest thing we tried to remember was not to move a model from the front of the base starting to the end of the base new position, because that's basically an extra inch. We did approximate center to center.

It helped that I played with close friends who would not cheat, and so pointing out someone was moving sloppy wouldn't be taken badly, as we all had a strong presumption of good faith.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 19:12:09


 
   
 
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