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Chaos Centurions? Why? Of everything that could've been made.

Ah, indeed, those are conversions.

Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.

Yes, they are Obliterator conversions, built using mainly the Centurion kit with added parts from the Hellbrute & various heavy weapons (again, mostly pooched from loyalist kits because Chaos don't get plastic heavy weapons), and copious amounts of green stuff.

Seriously, guys. GW, give Chaos Marines something good? This isn't 2001 anymore!

Damn fine looking obliterators.

I guess we won't see a second Warzone:Fenris book as the limited version of Damocles includes all books of the series.

Do we already know if the reboxed SW set increased in price? Not that I need any, just curious if GW abolished their price hikes together with their new strategy.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh, look. They have Original Fleet. The melee arms race is back on. This game is such a design clusterfeth.

The problem I have is that 'original Fleet' was originally intended as something to give to armies with Low Toughness and/or Armour that had to get into assault.

Fluffwise it made sense on Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tyranids - who really have (or had) paper thin transports and had to run into the maw of ignores armour that is the basic armament of anything in power armour in this game.

But they....they gave it to Wulfen. Who have a 4+ save (which is quite solid tbh - certainly better than the elite assault units of most Xenos armies), the option to buy the best Invuln save in the game (Storm Shields) and access to a flying transport. Oh, and Space Marine toughness. And FNP. And can strike back after they've died.

It's like...what? They have ALL those forms of 'evasion' to help them....and you give it to them? Not to...say...DE Wyches...or Tyranid Genestealers....really?

But there is a reason now they almost have to do it- the overabundance of excessive firepower. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Nids was fine having fleet- but now Eldar have str 6 guns on their bikes for 27 pts (less than a wulfen) and Tau have 4d6 missiles and broadsides, and weapons that fire at you even when you are out of line of sight, and Nids have Dakka Tyrants and marines and DA Centurions throwing out 20 shots a turn.. I'm not going to say the rules they gave the wulfen are excessive or not, honestly until they are used on the battlefield against the various armies we will find out. However, I will say this, SW as a solo codex have a real lack of firepower, yeah they can take some LF missiles but they dont have the ability to suppress any enemy, hence why all tournament armies are thunderwolves. This update doesnt seem to give any more firepower than the normal codex, so how else do you manage to add a unit that fails in its one job- to get to combat and from a sales perspective, if they dont somehow perform the job that Thunderwolves do, no one will take them (and I doubt the people buying the box simply to paint a single unit will pay for their production). GW wants to pretend it is just a model company, but if all the gamers walked away, the collectors wouldnt be enough to sustain their product lines.

So my point, if you go back 10 years to where most squads were either firing bolts or shuriken catapults or lascannons (heavy weapons of some sort) then yeah they wouldnt have needed all those extra rules to keep them alive (and they wouldnt need to be 30-50 pts a model).

Just my two cents.

I play 4th edition. The old fleet rules makes those units that have it actually feel fast like they should. These wolfin very much would fit well and work well in that old system.

Damn, the French do good work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, has anyone been able to translate that leak of the Chaos Grimoire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Translated via Google Translate, and then polished up by yours truly:

"The Grimoire Collection is hell forged and the best way for collectors of Chaos Daemons to get all the demonic rules from Curse of the Wulfen, and it is limited to 500 copies for the most faithful servants of Chaos.

The Grimoire Collection is made for the most passionate collector of Chaos Daemons. In the luxurious slipcase you find a drawer with all sorts of goodies for the inclined demons fanatic, including the 32-page "Scions of the Warp" booklet with all demons Rules of War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen. They may include 10 new Chaos demons formations and six data sheets, new warlord traits for the Chaos Gods, hellforged artifacts and psychic powers.

The Grimoire Collection also contains six metal markers, 21 psychic power cards, 36 Tactical Mission Objective cards and an exclusive small-format edition of Codex: Chaos Daemons with a cover that is unique to this collection. All that is presents in glorious fashion, perfect for all those whose loyalty to the Dark Gods is absolute."

$156

So.... this looks like the first example of a codex getting a new collectors edition without actually getting a new codex. Well done, Games Workshop. Well done.

Can anyone tell if these wulfen are on 32, 40, or 50mm bases?

Looking at some conversions and want to think about size/scale.

I believe they are on 40mm.

At least, that's what someone said a while back iirc.

 Quarterdime wrote:
So.... this looks like the first example of a codex getting a new collectors edition without actually getting a new codex. Well done, Games Workshop. Well done.

Didn't they do that with CSM once already? I don't think this is the first time.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

40k aesthetics in general have started to lean closer towards fantasy than sci-fi. You know how the Tau just recently got new Pathfinders and Fire Warriors? Notice how they're barefoot?

Warhammer 40K has never been sci-fi, it's always been fantasy in space, just like star wars. In fact I hate the tau for being too sci-fi for the setting. I'm glad they steer away from technology in 40K

To each their own, I guess. For me I wouldn't have had anything at all to do with 40k if it weren't for the sci-fi elements in it, like Tau and Tyranids. The fantasy aspects of 40k are what I hate the most about it, at least when it produces crap models...like these new wulfen. Or 90% of the CSM/Daemons miniature range.

 Sidstyler wrote:

To each their own, I guess. For me I wouldn't have had anything at all to do with 40k if it weren't for the sci-fi elements in it, like Tau and Tyranids. The fantasy aspects of 40k are what I hate the most about it, at least when it produces crap models...like these new wulfen. Or 90% of the CSM/Daemons miniature range.

...

....

....Crap models? Chaos Daemons? Alright, let me figure this out. I'll give you every model in the Slaanesh range, so let's be generous and say that's 1/5th of the range. Old 3rd edition models, let's say that brings the amount of gakky models in the range up to 40%. What other models in the range do you consider to be gakky and why?

All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.

 Sersi wrote:
All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.

The daemonettes have problems around the chest area... Their boobs look like traffic cones. And the only Slaanesh models that aren't tellingly old involve those daemonettes. Not to mention, the Seekers of Slaanesh are suffering from the problem where A: 3 of them are running while the other 2 are walking, and B: The daemonettes are upright the same way on all 5, making it look bad no matter how you look at it. The only Slaanesh miniatures that I'm currently giving a pass are those metal fiends, but now that one of the three is gone they're officially suffering from Duplicate Model Syndrome, and of course the Chariot of Slaanesh. I will say that the Daemonettes on that thing, from what I can tell, don't seem to have the traffic cone boobs. Which means I can no longer find anything glaringly wrong with it.

Ah... since when did their boobs look like traffic cones? Last I looked their lone boob was demispherical (this is for all of them by the way).

Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.

There is no reason for their build to even be bipedal, much less have the same bodily dimensions and articulation.

I feel honored to have my name in OP =)

even if its just a quote

heads up: atia said ulrik has an alt un helmeted head. Also implied the wolf priest on the 2nd book in the curse of the wulfen limited edition was that of ulrik.

Excuses. That's all that is. Looking at them, all I see is what they were trying to do. Besides, they're at least supposed to be a LITTLE seductive...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.

Because that bs makes for terrible models. Ugly, misshapen models should not be justified by "This is what they look like under the illusion" or "they're just pure energy so they can look however they like," because they're still ugly misshapen models. Models should only be unrealistic for the purpose of making them look better, not worse.

And that goes for these new Wulfen, too. If you're going to have the Wulfen be mutants, it should be because you want an excuse to make the models look better than if they were not mutants.

Thanks, Triszin

 Quarterdime wrote:
Excuses. That's all that is. Looking at them, all I see is what they were trying to do. Besides, they're at least supposed to be a LITTLE seductive...

Why, are we meant to be the ones under their spell? It was always ridiculous to have Daemonette models be walking boob-support machines(and anyone who even tries to pretend that the old models weren't sculpted to look like strippers with claws to appeal to hormonal teen boys is...well lets obey Rule 1 and just say "intensely mistaken"), they're supposed to be horrifying creatures from another dimension that use sorcerous mists and glamours to make you believe they're intensely beautiful until you're so far gone you no longer care. The current models best exemplify that concept because we are not the guardsman on the table who would see them as beautiful, we see what they truly are. As for this;

 AlexHolker wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.

Because that bs makes for terrible models. Ugly, misshapen models should not be justified by "This is what they look like under the illusion" or "they're just pure energy so they can look however they like," because they're still ugly misshapen models. Models should only be unrealistic for the purpose of making them look better, not worse.

And that goes for these new Wulfen, too. If you're going to have the Wulfen be mutants, it should be because you want an excuse to make the models look better than if they were not mutants.

...utter sanctimony. Should they make Plaguebearers into nice fluffy little green bunnies, so they're not ugly any more? Or maybe they should just plaster some tits on them and make them skinny

The whole point of Chaos is supposed to be the appealing shell of allure and easy answers that conceals the twisted, horrifying, rotting centre; that's why Nurgle models are riddled with plagues and disfigurements, Khorne's are barely-coherent ragemonsters, and Tzeentch's are freakish lumps of mutated body horror - almost every model for those three gods represents the reality of Chaos rather than the illusion or first impression, Slaanesh was the exception to that rule and the new plastics, IMO, fixed them. They're ugly and misshapen because Chaos is ugly and misshapen, and models should be whatever they need to be for the purpose of making them match their concept.

The problem with the Wulfen isn't that they don't exemplify the concept, the problem is they're a parody of it.

who cares about parodies of failed concepts and watnot ... these wulfen rock

 Quarterdime wrote:
....Crap models? Chaos Daemons? Alright, let me figure this out. I'll give you every model in the Slaanesh range, so let's be generous and say that's 1/5th of the range. Old 3rd edition models, let's say that brings the amount of gakky models in the range up to 40%. What other models in the range do you consider to be gakky and why?

90% is probably an exaggeration. I'm just not a big fan of how a lot of the CSM and Daemons miniature range has turned out. I'm not sure if I can even articulate why, there's just a lot of models in there that are cartoonish or goofy/fugly-looking, or just not very good concepts in the first place (like the Khorne skull cannon). The plastic daemon prince in particular is just an appalling sculpt, one of the kits I hate the most, if that gives you any idea of what aspects of the daemon models I'm not fond of. I hate almost literally everything about the kit compared to the previous metal one, and I think even GW realized they put out a real stinker with that one since they're still offering the old princes, when typically they would just replace it with the new plastic.

But yeah, I have the same issues with the Slaanesh range that most others do, with the much-maligned static and boring poses. Tzeentch is mainly the one I have the most issues with, as I loved the old horrors that looked like they were constantly twisting and mutating and almost turning themselves inside out, and I hate the new kit...they kinda just look like pink goblins with huge mouths. So that means pretty much all the heralds and chariots are out, most of the characters, and I'm not a fan of the flamers either since likewise I think the previous metals were superior sculpts (and the fire looks really weird, especially on the burning chariot...doesn't really look like fire). The screamers are okay, and the Changling looks cool, but those are literally the only Tzeentch models I like.

So being more of a Tzeentch or Slaanesh guy, I'm not very impressed with what's being offered.

The wulfen are mainly just in goofy poses (sadly they don't look very posable either, but that's just guessing since we don't know what's in the kit yet), and they look really odd with mostly humanoid upper bodies and bestial legs. I'd have preferred if they still had armored Space Marine legs and just had beefy upper bodies with lots of hair and fangs, or if they were just full on werewolves and looked kinda like the Infinity antipodes. This weird in-between thing doesn't really work and makes for some silly models. Also, not a fan of the bladed weapons that look carved out of ice, would be better if they just had actual metal claws or something instead. Ice doesn't usually make for an effective weapon, either, but there's probably some garbage fluff for that I'm assuming.

I've just never liked GW's take on demons. We can argue the finer points of traffic cone boobs and what not, I just don't find them appealing.

Demons, dragons and regular human proportions is where GW lets me down the most when it comes to miniature design.

curious how forging weapons made out of alien ice from a place virtually surrounded by it and all sort of frozen crap implies garbage fluff ... lol

Yeah, never been impressed by any of GW's dragons, either. Forge World made one or two good ones, I think.

 aracersss wrote:
curious how forging weapons made out of alien ice from a place virtually surrounded by it and all sort of frozen crap implies garbage fluff ... lol

Yeah you're right, what was I thinking? The space ice that never melts because reasons is actually brilliant.

Or are you being sarcastic? I can't tell.

of course I was sarcastic, why would I take serious weapons made of some unknown alloy found inside space ice that never melts ... 'cause that isn't possible. Gigantic wolf mounts and were wolves are more brilliant

The ice is ensorceled, it's why it keeps and edge, and is the same substance the frost blades/axes are made of.

I can't wait to see these guys running alongside Bran Redmaw on the table. Seeing that many lycanthropes running down field makes me incredibly happy

And the original Frost blades were made with teeth from the Kraken and not of magic ice.

Space Ice that never melts is awesome! It should freeze people you hit like Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat and then the Wulfen can run up and combo them for like 1/3 of their life bar! That would be totally sweet! Man I love the newer fluff.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.

Yes, they are Obliterator conversions, built using mainly the Centurion kit with added parts from the Hellbrute & various heavy weapons (again, mostly pooched from loyalist kits because Chaos don't get plastic heavy weapons), and copious amounts of green stuff.

Seriously, guys. GW, give Chaos Marines something good? This isn't 2001 anymore!

It's a shame it couldn't be real, because the concept seems sound. Loyalists have centurions, while chaos responds by just piling up spare hellbrute parts around a marine in the rough shape of a centurion and gluing it all together with daemonic energies.

Plus, if they refluffed obliterators/mutilators as "Chaos not-centurions" they could ditch two unpopular, oft-maligned finecast kits for one good-looking plastic kit.