Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It’s easy to post something here but to make the top 8 at the largest GT in the world speaks true volume.

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Well sure the guy playing them said they are largely a distraction unit. You cannot ignore them which keeps his other stuff alive. If we are looking at data and performance sanguinary guard are the better choice.

It’s the combination of the two units IMO.

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

...AND Rubric Marines did that before in 6th edition.

Like, seriously, does everyone just ignore that?

A 500 pt distraction unit? Do you play this game?

Breng77 wrote:
...You cannot ignore them...

(Important part of "distraction unit" emphasized. If a unit is bad at killing things it's also a bad distraction because it can be casually removed or ignored.)

Martel732 wrote:
A 500 pt distraction unit? Do you play this game?

500 points? 312 in the list in question, less in some other lists. Seems within reason for a unit that works as a solid distraction.

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Keep in mind, this isn't just one data point - the LVO consists of several rounds of individual games. Not saying you're entirely wrong, but we have to respect the data for what it really is.

I'm counting lemates, too.

Why would you do that? he might not be with them all the time.

I've seen very few dc bomb lists w/o lemartes.

Breng77 wrote:
My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen very few dc bomb lists w/o lemartes.

You don't need to make a bomb to use a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?

Part of it is what I own, though I could use more bolter or more CCW scouts. Using white scars I like the shotguns at times because I get the extra advance distance, so being able to shoot while advancing helps at times. Bolter guys are better at holding back field objectives. I also like the CCW guys for extra punch. Honestly though they mostly hide so it really doesn't matter much.

Thank you, I was planning on getting more scouts as I like the models and they are pretty mandoatory now to avoid all the deep strike etc. shenanigans
I think I will equip them like you

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Keep in mind, this isn't just one data point - the LVO consists of several rounds of individual games. Not saying you're entirely wrong, but we have to respect the data for what it really is.

Definitely valid, thanks for the clarification.

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

This. We're talking basic statistics 101 stuff here, the fact that people in this thread still do not understand this despite it being pointed out repeatedly (see Thousand Sons example) is getting rather silly.

It doesn't make them game breaking, but it is a counter example to them being a bad unit. Especially when multiple people in the top 10 at a huge event run them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

This. We're talking basic statistics 101 stuff here, the fact that people in this thread still do not understand this despite it being pointed out repeatedly (see Thousand Sons example) is getting rather silly.

Yeah I'm sick of my point being ignored.

I still think it's worth analyizing exactly what DC are bringing to a list that make it so strong.

If it were just one army that was doing well with it that would be one thing but 3/8 running some form of BA seems like a little more than luck.

That being said there are 4 guilliman lists in the top 100, 3 of which are relying on OP/undercosted fire raptors. I think there is one raveguard/IG soup list that is running lias and a bunch of devs + a sternguard bomb in the top 100 as well for what it's worth, and a salamanders list which is running the fire raptor and a sicarian.

Looks like competitive marines are running BA, SW, Fire raptors or soup. At least at the LVO. A couple DA players are doing okay with plasma but hellblasters, plasma ceptors and all the other "really good" units (cough centurions) that some people on this board have been going on about are pretty absent from most lists...

Oh and the guy who is going to win the thing thinks shining spears are OP if that counts for anything, and he's pretty much running an eldar list that I play against at my FLGS...(actually one of 3 but Nicks has less dark reapers)

For those saying single data point for death company, thy appear in 4 lists (those called out as Blood Angels) in the top 50 all of which went 5-1 or better. Now this doesn't mean they won because they included D.C. But it certainly means that these lists did not win 21 games in spite of their inclusion.

I saw one of these lists running Scout bikes (3 units) which I called out as a good unit. Many people running scouts (another unit I called out as good), you already mentioned inceptors and helblasters for DA. Top DA list ran landspeeder characters which I called out as good for them.

It's probably their immunity to first strike. I just can't understand why they don't die instantly the turn after they drop.

Of the 11 released codexes, there are 4 loyal space marine codexes and 2 chaos space marine codexes.

So still half or more than half.

So when people compare results from one Codex against 4-6 codexes, it's not really fair - if space marines and chaos space marines take 4 out of 8 spots, I would say they would just meeting expectations.

Also, what other faction doesn't use any of their iconic troops in any capacity?
- AM uses lots of guardsmen, Lemon Russ
- Tyranids use genestealers
- Orks mass boyz
- Eldar use rangers, dark reapers (too many perhaps)

Only Space marine and Chaos space marines fight with scouts, cultists, empty transports, empty flying transports, and commanders/Primarchs. Actual space marines? None. Actual terminators? None.

There is something very wrong with the 13 point space marine units, 45-50 point terminators, and it shows because nobody uses them......

Look at the units that are playable, and that's probably where the balance should be for these units -
- Berserkers and Death Company come with extra attacks.
- Sag Guard are terminators with far FAR better movement, same hp and save, and cost 25% less points. 25% less points for a better unit! Movement is king in competitive, and having 12 movement instead of 5 or 4 inches is HUGE. Terminators at 45 points with their crawling speed is just not balanced, and that's dozens of units across multiple codexes.

Same with space marines bodies - from tacs to assault, their measly one attack is just not cutting it, not for 13 points. The fancy versions (chosen, vets) with 2 attacks are 16-17 points are not good either. The sweet spot, based on what is used at ITC, is 17 point units with 3 attacks - Berserkers and Death Company (technically only on turn charged/when charged, but that's how long these high DPS, low Hp units are going to last anyway).

I've been saying for some time that marines are not 13 pt models. And terminators definitely aren't 40.

Martel732 wrote:
It's probably their immunity to first strike. I just can't understand why they don't die instantly the turn after they drop.

They do it by remaining locked after an assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA are doing well as I predicted when the first dex dropped. They can reliably get 2 units deep into combat on the first turn without counter (except against eldar with a huge unit of reapers) Against eldar they just lose.

How are they getting two units?

If they go first they use the pregame move stratagem, and then use the 3d6 charge on a different unit.

Martel732 wrote:
How are they getting two units?

deep strike with 3d6 charge and a charge with double move DC.

The double move is risky if you don't go first. I think mobile army design is a bigger boon for ITC. Upon wings of fire is stupid with inceptors.

Obviously you don't have to if you go second.