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Right, I've just started reading Imperator by Gav Thorpe, and all the Mechanicum adepts are referred to using the made up pronouns "ve" and "vis" instead of he/she and her/his. While this could possibly make a funny kind of sense when talking about the Mechanicum I have to confess that I'm a little unnerved by this development.

Before any far-left types shoot me down in flames and call me a nazi, I just want to say I don't have a problem with people declaring themselves gender neutral, but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

I'm now wondering if Black Library, or at least a certain number of their writers, are going to start doing away with referring to men as men and women as women. If this is the case then that's a shame because it's my prediction that sales will tank.

Am I worrying about nothing? Am I overreacting? Or am I not alone in noticing this development and being troubled by it?

It's 40k, words have changed quite a bit. Gothic isn't even the same language as we speak today. It isn't something worth worrying about considering the mechanicus lot are barely human any more, let alone identifiable through gender.

Oh dear.

Mechanicus Priests are barely human. They seek ever closer union with the machine, to bring them closer to the Omnissiah.

Do you not think the concept of gender might soon be dropped by adherents to that particular Cult?

It’s a term for a fictional character. I’d wind my neck in.

A servitor is probably purely gender neutral though - I mean they are basically machines that use a human body as a control unit instead of a computer.

It's not that a servitor is trying to rebel against societies preconceptions of what a male or female should do/like/enjoy/work/get paid etc.... The Servitor is a Servitor. So having a society in 40K years evolve words to refer to them is quite appropriate. If anything it would be dehumanising them even further since instead of he and she which reminds the speaker that the servitor was once human, they are instead using words the further separate them from the pure living humanity.

Interesting, I always seen GW as sort of outside any current political climate, so I'm surprised by this development.

I wanted to keep my fingerprints off of this, but hey whatever- in for a penny...

You're talking about a single book in what? Hundreds of BL titles. I wouldn't read too much into it- it is just a little flair of flavour.

Now, as for it being a "new" thing- I point you to a White Dwarf article from maybe 20(ish) years ago talking about Dark Eldar and their society in how even female higher-ups are still referred to as "Lords" as their society is so decadent it has gone beyond the need for separate terms.

This is all a storm in a teacup.

 Muhr wrote:
but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

Define how language changes and evolves "naturally" without people inventing new words.

It makes perfect sense to use gender neutral pronouns in this context, but inventing new ones is silly and just makes it unnecessarily weird. Singular 'they' will work just fine.

 Muhr wrote:
Right, I've just started reading Imperator by Gav Thorpe, and all the Mechanicum adepts are referred to using the made up pronouns "ve" and "vis" instead of he/she and her/his. While this could possibly make a funny kind of sense when talking about the Mechanicum I have to confess that I'm a little unnerved by this development.

Before any far-left types shoot me down in flames and call me a nazi, I just want to say I don't have a problem with people declaring themselves gender neutral, but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

I'm now wondering if Black Library, or at least a certain number of their writers, are going to start doing away with referring to men as men and women as women. If this is the case then that's a shame because it's my prediction that sales will tank.

Am I worrying about nothing? Am I overreacting? Or am I not alone in noticing this development and being troubled by it?

Okay, this is a touchy subject, and could easily devolve into a flame war / sociopolitical attacks. I'm choosing to assume this isn't a soft troll but is a genuine query, and simply say that in my opinion you're reading further into this than was intended. I'll also point out that, while I assume it wasn't intentional, some of the language used in your post could be taken as inflammatory - this is an exceptionally touchy subject.

I suspect the choice of gender-neutral pronouns for Mechanicum Adepts is intended to indicate that they're so far detached from humanity that the concept of gender is meaningless, while also avoiding the use of "it" as being too dehumanizing. It doesn't mean that those characters with a clear gender identity of "male" or "female" won't be referred to with the appropriate pronouns. You said yourself that those terms are used for the Adepts, which makes me assume (not having read the book) that they aren't being used for all the characters including those with a clear binary gender identity.

In other words - there's a big difference between adding words for people that don't fit the traditional binary genders, and getting rid of words for people that do.

As for the use of nonbinary pronouns... it's not just happening in the 41st millennium. I've seen both ve/vim and xhe/xhim (and a couple of other pronoun sets) used for and by nonbinary people in the past, and they're becoming more and more common even though there isn't (yet) an accepted linguistic framework for nonbinary individuals. After all, language does drift naturally, but sometimes when it's been moored a while it needs a little kickoff to allow it to drift.

Disclaimer: While I have number of nonbinary friends and fully support the LGBTQ+ movement, I don't have any direct, personal experience of this particular facet, and have not looked into it particularly deeply. I apologise if I've oversimplified the issue or missed a key nuance.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Muhr wrote:
but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

Define how language changes and evolves "naturally" without people inventing new words.

Language evolving naturally = Language my generation invented for themselves and all used and knew what they meant

Language evolving unnaturally = Language those upstart youngsters are inventing which corrupts and pollutes the purity of the language!

Stuffy Language = Language our parents/grandparents generation invented

Super Stuffy Language = Language our grandparents grandparents invented

Just plain confusing Language = Shakespear

*grabs coat - flees!*

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Muhr wrote:
but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

Define how language changes and evolves "naturally" without people inventing new words.

Um, what? That is how language changes; yes. But also it is gradual. You don't wake up one day and say you have to call word X word Y all of a sudden. It just does not happen- how many people still call companies or product by their old names when they got changed overnight? In this very game you can see it. An older gamer will still refer to a CSM Hellbrute as a Dreadnought for example. Nothing will change that, no matter how much you try as it is ingrained into people's consciousness. My grandparents until their dying day referred to a radio as a "Wireless". We knew exactly what they meant but my parents, nor my generation called it that as the language had evolved and the new word had set itself in by that point.

So, the lexicon changes all the time but it is gradual and takes generations.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh dear.

Mechanicus Priests are barely human. They seek ever closer union with the machine, to bring them closer to the Omnissiah.

Do you not think the concept of gender might soon be dropped by adherents to that particular Cult?

It’s a term for a fictional character. I’d wind my neck in.

Here we go. I express an opinion without attacking anyone and I'm told to "wind my neck in", in other words "shut up".

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but I won't be told to keep quiet by someone who can't understand that I'm not looking for an argument. I've already mentioned in my original post that it makes sense to refer to Mechanicum characters using gender neutral pronouns, and yet you seem to have completely missed that part of my comment.

Let me repeat myself because I can see it's difficult for some people to see through their judgement and understand what I was actually saying. Firstly, those pronouns were not used for just one character, as you seem to infer. It's used for the entire Mechanicum. But that wasn't what was unsure about. I was wondering if this kind of thing is going to spread to ALL characters, male and female. Do you not think that would be problematic?

The new usage of these pronouns such as "they" instead of "him/her" would be confusing at best when used in print.

I'm sorry that the merits of this subject completely went over your head. Unlike you, I don't want others who may disagree with me to "wind their necks in". I prefer constructive debate rather than shutting people up, the so-called "deplatforming" of ideological opponents.

 Overread wrote:


Just plain confusing Language = Shakespear

When you know what he's talking about you can see how much toilet humour (sometimes literally) is in his work.

The man made the first recorded "your mum" joke FFS.

 Overread wrote:
A servitor is probably purely gender neutral though - I mean they are basically machines that use a human body as a control unit instead of a computer.

It's not that a servitor is trying to rebel against societies preconceptions of what a male or female should do/like/enjoy/work/get paid etc.... The Servitor is a Servitor. So having a society in 40K years evolve words to refer to them is quite appropriate. If anything it would be dehumanising them even further since instead of he and she which reminds the speaker that the servitor was once human, they are instead using words the further separate them from the pure living humanity.

Shouldn't it be "it" then? I don't see why one has to make up pronouns when you have one that's perfectly serviceable for referring to something that's no longer truly human.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Muhr wrote:
but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

Define how language changes and evolves "naturally" without people inventing new words.

That's easy to answer: organically means it happens without people overtly noticing the changes, through people hearing their friends and family use new words that they then pick up and use themselves. The opposite of organically is when new sets of made up words are enforced with legislative power behind them. To be COMPELLED by law to use them on pain of financial or custodial penalty.

Of course, this is slightly of - topic from my original comment, but you insisted on bringing up the subject on a more fundamental level.

 Grimtuff wrote:

So, the lexicon changes all the time but it is gradual and takes generations.

Only if the change precipitating the change in language is gradual.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

So, the lexicon changes all the time but it is gradual and takes generations.

Only if the change precipitating the change in language is gradual.

Which is literally what I said in my post, including examples...

 Muhr wrote:
Right, I've just started reading Imperator by Gav Thorpe, and all the Mechanicum adepts are referred to using the made up pronouns "ve" and "vis" instead of he/she and her/his. While this could possibly make a funny kind of sense when talking about the Mechanicum I have to confess that I'm a little unnerved by this development.

Before any far-left types shoot me down in flames and call me a nazi, I just want to say I don't have a problem with people declaring themselves gender neutral, but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

I'm now wondering if Black Library, or at least a certain number of their writers, are going to start doing away with referring to men as men and women as women. If this is the case then that's a shame because it's my prediction that sales will tank.

Am I worrying about nothing? Am I overreacting? Or am I not alone in noticing this development and being troubled by it?

As a self proclaimed lefty-type (far? short?) I understand your perspective and I respect you for sharing it.

But I feel like it's a bit silly to complain about made up words in a fictional piece

Joking aside, I'd like to point out that you've mentioned the Mechanicum as an example for this. Is that the only time you've seen it? I'm genuinely curious because it actually makes a whole lot of sense for a group of people seeking to leave behind their flesh prisons to actually recognize gender is irrelevant when you're a machine.

 Muhr wrote:

The new usage of these pronouns such as "they" instead of "him/her" would be confusing at best when used in print.

And by 'new' you mean it has been in use since the 14th century... And somehow English speakers manage with 'you' being both singular than plural (though that hasn't always been so.)

Just dug up the DE quote FWIW-

...it is this Lord (or Lady for that matter, the Eldar in general appear to make little distinction between the roles of male and female genders. Another example of their decadence) who decides on a Kabal's policies towards other Kabals and organisations.

From a White Dwarf article on Kruellagh the Vile from June of 1999.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

So, the lexicon changes all the time but it is gradual and takes generations.

Only if the change precipitating the change in language is gradual.

Which is literally what I said in my post, including examples...

Right, but a sudden change can also necessitate a sudden change in language to deal with such a change.

The possibility and capacity of becoming a machine, free from the limitations of flesh and even organic thought, would seem to me to fit that criteria. There's a reason that genres which explore transhumanism such as cyberpunk also create new language in order to do so.

Someone whose consciousness is no longer bound to any physical form, for example. Why would you refer to such a being by a binary gender term when such distinctions are utterly meaningless to such a being and only serve to cloud the reality of this being through imposing an incorrect frame of reference (gender) onto them?

In the context of the sentient Toaster plebians, i actually don't mind.

Muhr wrote:Right, I've just started reading Imperator by Gav Thorpe, and all the Mechanicum adepts are referred to using the made up pronouns "ve" and "vis" instead of he/she and her/his. While this could possibly make a funny kind of sense when talking about the Mechanicum I have to confess that I'm a little unnerved by this development.

Before any far-left types shoot me down in flames and call me a nazi, I just want to say I don't have a problem with people declaring themselves gender neutral, but it's my opinion that language can and should change organically at a natural pace. Simply dumping a load of made up words into the ether and demanding that everyone MUST use them from now on, I just think that that is the antithesis of freedom of expression, not the champion of it.

I'm now wondering if Black Library, or at least a certain number of their writers, are going to start doing away with referring to men as men and women as women. If this is the case then that's a shame because it's my prediction that sales will tank.

Am I worrying about nothing? Am I overreacting? Or am I not alone in noticing this development and being troubled by it?

Yes, I think you are.
Firstly, it's a cult of technophiles who pretty much eschew the flesh and switch nearly all of their body into machine. Sex and gender is barely relevant for them, and this has been consistent for decades. Honestly, the fact that other authors have used he/his or she/her for your average Techpriests* sounds more foreign and seems only to be there to appeal to our common language. Adding in gender neutral terms is both embracing the English language's ability to use gender neutral pronouns and making more sense in lore too.

*I say average, obviously there will be some Techpriests who are more or less attached to their humanity and fleshy bits, so might still use a preferred gender, but it makes sense for the majority of Tech-Adepts to use gender neutral terminology. Ave Omnissiah, and all that.

Secondly, how do you expect language to "change organically", both in real life and in 40k? Because in 40k, if we're talking about organic progression of language, these gender neutral pronouns (as mentioned above) make absolute sense when we're talking about a cult several thousand years in the future who largely abandon their mortal bodies. Hell, in one of the Deathwatch RPGs, we get a great example of organically changed language where inhabitants of a certain planet use altered syntax (can't remember the specifics, but they do something funky with the verbs). This is far less complex than that.
In real life - how do you think language changes organically, if this isn't it? You can't expect language to change "organically" if people aren't supposed to use it in the first place unless it's "organic".

I doubt this is an official mandate or any kind of directive from on high. This is most likely Gav injecting a bit of his own worldbuilding into 40k, which other authors can draw on if they like, or they can carry on doing their own thing, and the readers can do that too. No-one's "demanding" that you start using gender neutral terms at all. But, honestly, even if they were including them as part of a mandate from Black Library head office (and no-one believes that they genuinely are), would that be such a bad thing?

As for your "men are men and women are women"; that's not what's going on here at all, because if they're using gender neutral terms, they're not men or women, are they? They're Adepts of the Machine God, and for these ones, their gender is irrelevant to that.

 Crimson wrote:

 Muhr wrote:

The new usage of these pronouns such as "they" instead of "him/her" would be confusing at best when used in print.

And by 'new' you mean it has been in use since the 14th century... And somehow English speakers manage with 'you' being both singular than plural (though that hasn't always been so.)

More like used until the 18th century, fell out of popularity and only recently became trendy again.
Plural You isn't quite the same as its direct; you're right in front of whoever you're addressing, so its obvious if you are talking to one or more people.
Its a little trickier with singular they, as its third person. You need to be clear if you are referring to a group or a person. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, but I can see why people can have misgivings over its usage.

 Muhr wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh dear.

Mechanicus Priests are barely human. They seek ever closer union with the machine, to bring them closer to the Omnissiah.

Do you not think the concept of gender might soon be dropped by adherents to that particular Cult?

It’s a term for a fictional character. I’d wind my neck in.

Here we go. I express an opinion without attacking anyone and I'm told to "wind my neck in", in other words "shut up".

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but I won't be told to keep quiet by someone who can't understand that I'm not looking for an argument. I've already mentioned in my original post that it makes sense to refer to Mechanicum characters using gender neutral pronouns, and yet you seem to have completely missed that part of my comment.

Let me repeat myself because I can see it's difficult for some people to see through their judgement and understand what I was actually saying. Firstly, those pronouns were not used for just one character, as you seem to infer. It's used for the entire Mechanicum. But that wasn't what was unsure about. I was wondering if this kind of thing is going to spread to ALL characters, male and female. Do you not think that would be problematic?

The new usage of these pronouns such as "they" instead of "him/her" would be confusing at best when used in print.

I'm sorry that the merits of this subject completely went over your head. Unlike you, I don't want others who may disagree with me to "wind their necks in". I prefer constructive debate rather than shutting people up, the so-called "deplatforming" of ideological opponents.

You are throwing around some awfully politically sounding terms here for a forum that has an explicit politics ban.

posthuman robo-people make about as much sense being referred to as "She" or "He" as tyranids cloned out of a soupvat with no digestive tract let alone reproductive organs. I sincerely doubt your poor fragile brain will have to deal with such indignity as a Space Marine that doesn't make sure to refer to himself based on the tiny vestigial inch of nonfunctional soft tissue left behind by the arcane surgical procedures that transformed him into a 10 foot tall superhuman weapon of war.

anyway my guess is this is a singular author attempting to enforce that tech preists are simply genderless and employing new language terms that are developing. In short Mr Thorpe was proably just experimenting, nothing more. the real take away is that books written AFTER this book have been written with standard binary gender terms.

In short.. Don't Panic.

Muhr wrote:organically means it happens without people overtly noticing the changes, through people hearing their friends and family use new words that they then pick up and use themselves.

Disagree on the former. I can overtly notice certain words and terms becoming popular language, but it doesn't mean it's not happening organically.

The opposite of organically is when new sets of made up words are enforced with legislative power behind them. To be COMPELLED by law to use them on pain of financial or custodial penalty.

Which isn't what's happening here. Gav Thorpe or the BL team isn't going to come around to your house and beat you if you don't use their pronouns in their fictional story.

No-one's demanding anything.

Muhr wrote:Here we go. I express an opinion without attacking anyone and I'm told to "wind my neck in", in other words "shut up".

No, but it does sound very "how dare these people use gender neutral pronouns!", and if someone did use gender neutral pronouns, can be construed as a stifling of their freedom of expression.

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but I won't be told to keep quiet by someone who can't understand that I'm not looking for an argument. I've already mentioned in my original post that it makes sense to refer to Mechanicum characters using gender neutral pronouns, and yet you seem to have completely missed that part of my comment.

"In a funny kind of sense".

The vast majority of your opinion seems to be "I'm worried Black Library is forcing gender neutral characters on people, and I don't want that" - on the one hand, Black Library most likely *aren't* forcing anything, this is Gav's personal worldbuilding (which as you said, makes total sense because Mechanicum) and on the other, don't you find it ironic that you're complaining about "being told to keep quiet" about your post wishing BL would "keep quiet" about gender neutrality?

Let me repeat myself because I can see it's difficult for some people to see through their judgement and understand what I was actually saying. Firstly, those pronouns were not used for just one character, as you seem to infer. It's used for the entire Mechanicum. But that wasn't what was unsure about. I was wondering if this kind of thing is going to spread to ALL characters, male and female. Do you not think that would be problematic?

No, and no. Because it's not "male and female" characters who would be made gender neutral, because male and female identifying characters identify as male and female! Characters whose gender is irrelevant to them (such as, I don't know, the Mechanicum) would make more sense being gender neutral.

I think you're mistunderstanding what gender neutrality is. It's not "I'm a man, but I actually want XYZ pronoun", it's "I don't identify as a man, I use neutral terms instead". It's not "everyone needs to be neutral and we'll sweep across our roster of established characters to do it!", it's "new characters whose gender would be irrelevant to them won't use gender specific pronouns".

There's no replacement, no sweeping changes to existing characters.

The new usage of these pronouns such as "they" instead of "him/her" would be confusing at best when used in print.

Good thing that's not been happening since - oh, several centuries.

For what it's worth, I use gender neutral pronouns where I can. I've never had anyone get confused about it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:anyway my guess is this is a singular author attempting to enforce that tech preists are simply genderless and employing new language terms that are developing. In short Mr Thorpe was proably just experimenting, nothing more. the real take away is that books written AFTER this book have been written with standard binary gender terms.

In short.. Don't Panic.

This. It's not some BL mandate. It's Thorpe doing some worldbuilding for his own book being published by Black Library.

Talk about finding controversy where there is none....I don't think we need to worry that the little alt-right beloved modeling hobby about super human fascists destroying everything that doesn't look like them in the name of their god is in anyway going down the mainstream political current.

Seriously. If you are raising alarm bells about gender neutrality in 40k we have seriously hit the limit of things to discuss and it's time for GW to release new lore....

 Muhr wrote:

That's easy to answer: organically means it happens without people overtly noticing the changes, through people hearing their friends and family use new words that they then pick up and use themselves. The opposite of organically is when new sets of made up words are enforced with legislative power behind them. To be COMPELLED by law to use them on pain of financial or custodial penalty.

Of course, this is slightly of - topic from my original comment, but you insisted on bringing up the subject on a more fundamental level.

In fairness, I think the underlined part may well be what's happened here.

Is it possible that Gav, when writing this story, felt that neither male nor female pronouns felt right, so just automatically used a set of nonbinary pronouns which have been creeping into common use over the past few years? It's not like Gav made these up - they're already in use. Maybe it's just the first time you personally have been exposed to them, which is perfectly understandable.

Also, again, there is a massive difference between "there are nonbinary pronouns" and "the concept of gender is being done away with". The former absolutely does not imply the latter.

In the recent Rites of Passage novel by Mike Brooks, the Imperial governor of a planet is referred to by the ve/vis/vim, so it cannot all be chalked up to being affiliated with the Adeptus Mechanicus. There is also a male Adept who repeatedly makes reference to his husband. Neither of these particular details were really significant to the overall plot.