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What have BA players found effective against knights.

Libby dread melee, SG melee, captain hammer, DC with hammers...

Smash Captain, which is soon to be nerfed to uselessness.

My suggestion is to Play Apoc or choose to not play against knights.

Would love to not play against them but i just play with a small group. One guy always has to bring 1 or 2 knights or Morty. And now that iron hands are the new hot thing that will be his next army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how are they going to nerf smash Captains? Make the cost of thinder hammer and storm shields higher? Doing that would negate thier effort to make BA a viable army again.... it is GW i guess. They dont always do things that make the most sense.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Smash Captain, which is soon to be nerfed to uselessness.

How so?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My suggestion is to Play Apoc or choose to not play against knights.

Ok, now be useful & give an answer where the assumptions are:
1) That you are playing a game of 40k
2) That you are playing as BA
3) That you will face a knight

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Smash Captain, which is soon to be nerfed to uselessness.

How so?

Extreme Price increase that no longer makes it points efficient.

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My suggestion is to Play Apoc or choose to not play against knights.

Ok, now be useful & give an answer where the assumptions are:
1) That you are playing a game of 40k
2) That you are playing as BA
3) That you will face a knight

Concede when you come across knights and save yourself 4 hours of losing. Once the Smash Captain is nerfed the BA will be unable to win against knights without massive amounts of RNG.

Continue using a smash captain. Or two, thanks to Blood of Baal. They remain highly effective at demolishing things in combat.

The BA smash captain just got buffed and is better at 143pts than it used to be at 124pts. Getting +1 to charge is a huge buff in reliability. Also 2 extra defensive stratagems available for it and some new relics as well. Doesnt even have to be the warlord and give up "Slay the warlord" to get a warlord trait anymore. And in pure BA will get an additional attack and ap in turn 3+.

Im just worried they will nerf it since its so good in soup that it will be unusable in BA lists that have CP problems unlike imperial soup with astra brigades.

Klickor wrote:
The BA smash captain just got buffed and is better at 143pts than it used to be at 124pts. Getting +1 to charge is a huge buff in reliability. Also 2 extra defensive stratagems available for it and some new relics as well. Doesnt even have to be the warlord and give up "Slay the warlord" to get a warlord trait anymore. And in pure BA will get an additional attack and ap in turn 3+.

Im just worried they will nerf it since its so good in soup that it will be unusable in BA lists that have CP problems unlike imperial soup with astra brigades.

Remember that BA lose Doctrine bonuses in a soup list, so GW might just leave S. Cap'n alone.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Concede when you come across knights and save yourself 4 hours of losing. Once the Smash Captain is nerfed the BA will be unable to win against knights without massive amounts of RNG.

If losing to a Knight list is taking 4 hous you're doing something wrong.

The Newman wrote:

Klickor wrote:
The BA smash captain just got buffed and is better at 143pts than it used to be at 124pts. Getting +1 to charge is a huge buff in reliability. Also 2 extra defensive stratagems available for it and some new relics as well. Doesnt even have to be the warlord and give up "Slay the warlord" to get a warlord trait anymore. And in pure BA will get an additional attack and ap in turn 3+.

Im just worried they will nerf it since its so good in soup that it will be unusable in BA lists that have CP problems unlike imperial soup with astra brigades.

Remember that BA lose Doctrine bonuses in a soup list, so GW might just leave S. Cap'n alone.

.

Its the reliability of him that worries me. A 3d6 8" charge with rerolls and no overwatch. And Lemartes with the new litanies together with a cheaper and stronger mephiston makes for a really strong supreme command detachment.

Better smash captain. Lemartes have up to 7/8 str 7 ap 2 d3+1 attacks with rerolls to hit and charge for 100pts. Not only is he a beast himself he can buff the smash captain as well. And mephiston got 15pts cheaper with 1 extra to attack, wound and threat range. New relic for Librarian Dread if you want that one instead of Mephiston.

And even if you go with 3 smash captains we can have 2 with warlord traits now and there is another 4 relics usable for them. Fall back and charge with +1 to charge distance JP(to allow a 3d6 7" charge) , ammo to give +1 to hit in melee so keep hitting on 2s and master crafted weapons. And a reroll charge relic as well.

Even without doctrines BA supreme command just got a lot better. Sure the 3 captain version got a bit pricier but also better and there are also other versions that are cheaper in both points and CP available.

...last time I checked Marines couldn't put a relic on a Character with the Vehicle keyword. Do BAs not have that restriction?

The Newman wrote:
...last time I checked Marines couldn't put a relic on a Character with the Vehicle keyword. Do BAs not have that restriction?

It depends. This is a new Librarian Dreadnought only relic. I know that DA can have a relic on Chaplain Dreads as well.

Is this one Knight or an army of Knights? What's in the lists you've been taking? In my experience my general all-comers anti-vehicle arsenal in Deathwatch (frag cannons, lascannon Razorbacks, and thunderhammers if it gets too close, most of which you can use in BA) is plenty to deal with one Knight unless it's the Dominus with the full stratagem/relic stack.

Its 2 knights not sure which kind yet. I was planning on running something along these lines. We're playing a hime brew where we don't have to be battleforged. You can rin whatever you want as long as its under 1500 points heres what I got
HQS
Smash Captain
Another captain with jumppack and shield
Mephison
2 lieutenants one with a jump pack

Troops
8 intersessors with bolt rifles

Heavy
2 squads of executioners
8 hellblasters with heavy plasma

Elites
5 man Sanguinary guard with powerfist and inerno pistols
5 man death company with powerfist and inferno pistols

2
Culexis assassins

My idea is to use one normal captain and one lieutenant to give the hellblasters, executioners, and intesesors rerolls to hit and wound on 1s. These guys will pick away at 1 knight while the 2 assassins get up close and do melee since they can only be hit on 6s have an invuln of 4 and their damage ignores invuln saves.

For the other knight i plan to ds gaurd and death company with the smash Captain and other lieutenant. The capt and lieutenant will give rerolls to hit and wounds on 1s to DC a d SG. Mephison will also attemp to give the death comp a 5 invuln. Death comp, smash capt. And sanguinary gaurd will attack the other knight.

I know this sounds odd but ill be teaming up with a 1000 man Orruk squad that doesn't have much to deal woth a knight. I told him I would take out/ distract the knights while he captured objectives a d handled smaller enemies. I've also contemplated using a laser tank on place of the two assassins.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Smash Captain, which is soon to be nerfed to uselessness.

How so?

Extreme Price increase that no longer makes it points efficient.

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My suggestion is to Play Apoc or choose to not play against knights.

Ok, now be useful & give an answer where the assumptions are:
1) That you are playing a game of 40k
2) That you are playing as BA
3) That you will face a knight

Concede when you come across knights and save yourself 4 hours of losing. Once the Smash Captain is nerfed the BA will be unable to win against knights without massive amounts of RNG.

Errm… You don't play the game right?
Im pretty sure I remember you stating you don't actually play 40k.

As a Chaos Knights player. The best way to beat knights is punching them really hard in the face. Or by playing the objective better. Unless your Imperial Fists, then you just shoot...a lot, then win.

If you deploy a unit of Hellblasters they're going to be target #1 for the Knights; you don't really have much else AT. Can you work any kind of cheap long-ranged AT (Dreadnaughts, lascannon Razorbacks, Devastators) into the list? If you can soften up the Knight without getting immediately killed (by having units you can hide out of LOS, then walk out and get some shots off at 48" range) your melee forces will have a much easier time.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Smash Captain, which is soon to be nerfed to uselessness.

How so?

Extreme Price increase that no longer makes it points efficient.

ccs wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My suggestion is to Play Apoc or choose to not play against knights.

Ok, now be useful & give an answer where the assumptions are:
1) That you are playing a game of 40k
2) That you are playing as BA
3) That you will face a knight

Concede when you come across knights and save yourself 4 hours of losing. Once the Smash Captain is nerfed the BA will be unable to win against knights without massive amounts of RNG.

He currently 1 shots a knight for about 140 points. How much should the units 1 shotting the knight cost?

Blood angels are literally the best army to play knights. Smash Captains, Libby dreads, death company with hammers and sanginary guard can all maul knights and there's very little they can do about it.

If you know you're playing knights and have the models to bring all anti tank then they almost auto lose. The only reason that they do well at tournaments is because people tend to bring lists that can fight hoardes and armour so they can skew their toughness.

 Xenomancers wrote:
He currently 1 shots a knight for about 140 points. How much should the units 1 shotting the knight cost?

But if bogged down by chaff he will kill next to nothing. Captain Smash is not uniformly powerful against all opponents. He just happens to a perfect Rock to IK's Scissors.

He also takes multiple stratagems to pump him up to Knight-killing levels so while he may only cost 143 points, killing a Knight will normally burn a big chunk of your CPs in a single phase.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He currently 1 shots a knight for about 140 points. How much should the units 1 shotting the knight cost?

But if bogged down by chaff he will kill next to nothing. Captain Smash is not uniformly powerful against all opponents. He just happens to a perfect Rock to IK's Scissors.

He also takes multiple stratagems to pump him up to Knight-killing levels so while he may only cost 143 points, killing a Knight will normally burn a big chunk of your CPs in a single phase.

Agreed, thats why i tend not to run them because they cost so many points. Would there be a way to incorporate Gilliman in a way that you could get the 3 wxtra cp for having him in your army to help balance that out. For his point cost would it be worth it?

TBH I'm taking BA to my first 2 tournies of 2020. If I'm up against pure knights, there is an average amount of terrain and I roll average I don't see how I could lose.

Smash Captain
Libby Dreadnaught.
Mephiston
Astorath
Sang Guard
Death Company

A Sanguinary Priest is helpful so you can wound them on 2s rather then 3s.

If they have a ton of guardsman with them it does make it harder but pure knights are so 2019. RG, IH, IF and now BA all laugh them off the table.

The biggest problem I saw with Knights is that they were very easy to play and thus you had average players doing significantly better then they should. But their skill cap is very low. The difference between a good IK Knights player and an average one is next to nothing.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He currently 1 shots a knight for about 140 points. How much should the units 1 shotting the knight cost?

But if bogged down by chaff he will kill next to nothing. Captain Smash is not uniformly powerful against all opponents. He just happens to a perfect Rock to IK's Scissors.

He also takes multiple stratagems to pump him up to Knight-killing levels so while he may only cost 143 points, killing a Knight will normally burn a big chunk of your CPs in a single phase.

That's why he has a jump pack.

Burning that CP means killing over 1/4 of your opponents army. It is considerably worth it.