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I'm building a Death Guard army and I started wondering what a Tyranid Hive Fleet would look like after it had consumed a world controlled by Nurgle's Favourite Children.
Has this ever happened in the fluff? If so, did Nurgle's blessings have any effect on the hug monsters?
If there's no official background material, what do you think would happen in this scenario?
Thanks
I think a Tyranid army blessed by Nurgle would look really cool on the table.
The main problem with demons is when they die they vanish so there's no biomass from purebred demons for the Tyranids to harvest and evolve from. Meanwhile most mutations caused in the living tend to be rather unstable. Indeed remove the "magic" of the warp and most of nurgles blessings are basically rotting death - leaving a person screaming in agony and weakness and likely dead within moments.
So, again, very little for the Tyranids to really latch onto genetically.
THAT said nothing stops you doing this - nothing stops you having a swarm that attacked a world under the Plague of Nurgle and getting, mutated, due to the abnormal conditions present and that mutation twisting and affecting their genes and reproduction capabilities. Indeed it would be a very nurgle thing to infect a swarm
One of the plot hooks presented in Codex: Daemonhunters was that a Hive Tyrant had become infected with Nurgle's Rot and was spreading disease before the oncoming swarm.
Sim-Life wrote: There IS a fluff example somewhere of a tyranid swarm encountering a plague hulk in space. The tyranid toxins over-powered the Nurgle plagues.
I cannot even begin to express the level of stupid I feel this embodies... If this is accurate, it's stroke-inducing.
"Russ - This guy is basically werewolf Dick Cheney. No pity at all."
-Vulgar, because it was too funny not to steal
Mr.Giggles wrote: I'm building a Death Guard army and I started wondering what a Tyranid Hive Fleet would look like after it had consumed a world controlled by Nurgle's Favourite Children.
Has this ever happened in the fluff? If so, did Nurgle's blessings have any effect on the hug monsters?
If there's no official background material, what do you think would happen in this scenario?
Thanks
I think a Tyranid army blessed by Nurgle would look really cool on the table.
In Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors use a hive ship that has been corrupted by the obliterator virus I think as a sort of fleet carrier. So chaos corruption of tyranids can certainly happen.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
In the Death Guard codex there is an entry where Tyranids invade a fortified plague world and get into an 'arms race' of trying to out-poison the plagues via mass deployment of venomthropes, toxicrenes, etc. Eventually the mix of Tyranid toxins and warp-tainted plagues becomes so potent both sides are literally liquefied. A hive ship approaches and deploys a proboscis to attempt siphoning nutrients from the surface, only for it to immediately become so infected that the rest of the hive fleet bombards it into oblivion rather than attempting to salvage that ship's biomass.
That world is (presumably) still out there covered in liquid nasty, as the Tyranids were unable to consume it. Maybe some were deployed or left behind to make further attempts at adaptation & consumption, but wound up as possessed plague-zombies along the lines of poxwalkers.
Reminds me of when I converted some hormagaunt poxwalkers for when I played against my DG buddy.
Sim-Life wrote: There IS a fluff example somewhere of a tyranid swarm encountering a plague hulk in space. The tyranid toxins over-powered the Nurgle plagues.
I cannot even begin to express the level of stupid I feel this embodies... If this is accurate, it's stroke-inducing.
Why? Tyranids are proven to evolve far faster than anything else. Meanwhile they also have a Shadow in the Warp ability so chances are whatever influence and boon those Nurgle Plagues draw from the Warp might well get disrupted or even fully disabled. The result being that they can only work on a biological level, which Tyranids excel at working on. So the idea that Tyranids, in that situation, could overcome Nurgles Plague makes perfect sense.
The Plague likely lost ability to draw from the warp; there wasn't likely an organised team of Nurgle researchers developing new strains on the plagued ship; the Tyranids were likely evolving and advancing the whole time they were in combat. So it stands to reason that they would win the biological arms race.
I’d guess that anything that is just “physical” effects like a mutation or disease would get consumed and absorbed, and the Nids could definitely be carriers. But the effects will be limited, since the Shadow in the Warp will keep Nurgle from interacting any further with the “seeds” or possessing anything and the Consuming system already has to deal with pathogens and probably has a means at keeping them out of the larger hive fleet.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Sim-Life wrote: There IS a fluff example somewhere of a tyranid swarm encountering a plague hulk in space. The tyranid toxins over-powered the Nurgle plagues.
I cannot even begin to express the level of stupid I feel this embodies... If this is accurate, it's stroke-inducing.
The story is from a small section regarding Gorgon in the Tyranid codex, as a bit explaining how they changed from focusing on hyper-accelerated physical adaptation (their gimmick in the 5th edition codex) to toxins (8th edition gimmick).
The story began when a handful of surviving ships encountered a Nurgle corrupted space hulk and launched a boarding party. The initial wave was slaughtered by the Plague Marines within the hulk, who were appropriately enough immune to the basic Tyranid toxins employed by Gorgon at that stage. The fleet recovered a handful of Nurgle casualties after the initial assault and the next wave included some modified Toxicrenes which filled the hulk with clouds of Tyranid phage-cells. Said phase cells directly attacked the tissues of the defenders and basically digested them alive. Gorgon than used the genetic samples left over from the conflict to improve their own toxins and venoms beyond what most Hive Fleets can produce, resulting in the current incarnation of the fleet.
I suppose to summarize, Gorgon deployed an immune response against the Nurgle forces and learned how to make more potent toxins from the experience.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/25 09:02:00
Makes sense. Now if only their trait actually encouraged taking venom-based models (they offer re-roll 1s to wound, but venomthropes and toxicrenes already re-roll a wound rolls).
Such stories are written, because authors are too lazy to write quality stuff. In a lot of cases, a writer will make extensive research into his own subject matter. This allows them to come with really fleshed out stories. Lack of research is why we get such idiotic models from GW. Flying bricks? You do not want to even know how idiotic most other models from GW is. Half of them would not even function properly.
In this case, you can't evolve against Nurgle. His plagues are as much physical as supernatural. Tyranids can evolve against physical plagues, but they can't against supernatural, because Nurgle's plagues are like microscopic deamons. They do not abide physical laws and act as much as microbes as conscious hive mind on microscopic scale. It is like whole hive fleet shrunk to microbial level, but now it sometimes breaks physical laws and a prayer is an effective form of fighting them.
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
What Tyranids do is in any case like a poorly educated laymans understanding of evolution. It is precisely the misconception that most kids have about how evolution works.
They do not undergo evolution by natural selection, what Tyranids do is much more akin to Intelligent Design. Which makes for cooler fiction.
Da Boss wrote: What Tyranids do is in any case like a poorly educated laymans understanding of evolution. It is precisely the misconception that most kids have about how evolution works.
They do not undergo evolution by natural selection, what Tyranids do is much more akin to Intelligent Design. Which makes for cooler fiction.
Kroot are even dumber.
LMAO I don't have any point to add, just thanks. Throw Pokemon into the mix and you basically have a perfect amalgamation of all the way people tend to misunderstand evolution as a scientific theory.
*sigh*
With the usual caveat that theory means "concept for a how a certain thing works, that is not fully experimentally tested under double-blind conditions, but has been subjected to the full rigours we are presently able to provide for the question it seeks to address, and has as yet failed to be falsified by peers within the current limits of testing"
Theory does not mean "inadequately proven idea of how things might work, that is still under debate by the scientific community" (who, I will remind you, have dedicated their LIVES to understanding their particular fields to the absolute maximum of human ability: YOU, the random internet person reading this, do NOT understand the data better than the community of scientists devoted to doing so).
Joe is a better hunter than Rob. So Joe catches more food than Rob. So Joe and his wife have more kids, who grow up healthier, than Rob's. So Joe's genetics get passed to more people than Rob's. That is ALL evolution means. Replicate over aa hundred generations, and eventually Joe's lineage are better hunters, genetically, and Rob's lineage are extinct. It's that basic.
To an even greater extent, theory does not mean "unfalsifiable guess".
Do with that what you will.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/26 00:41:48
***Bring back Battlefleet Gothic***
Nurgle may own my soul, but Slaanesh has my heart <3
Such stories are written, because authors are too lazy to write quality stuff. In a lot of cases, a writer will make extensive research into his own subject matter. This allows them to come with really fleshed out stories. Lack of research is why we get such idiotic models from GW. Flying bricks? You do not want to even know how idiotic most other models from GW is. Half of them would not even function properly.
In this case, you can't evolve against Nurgle. His plagues are as much physical as supernatural. Tyranids can evolve against physical plagues, but they can't against supernatural, because Nurgle's plagues are like microscopic deamons. They do not abide physical laws and act as much as microbes as conscious hive mind on microscopic scale. It is like whole hive fleet shrunk to microbial level, but now it sometimes breaks physical laws and a prayer is an effective form of fighting them.
The irony is staggering; this opinion only makes sense from a perspective of not fully understanding Nurgle OR Tyranid fluff.
greyknight12 wrote: @Ernestas the supernatural side of Nurgle’s plagues is somewhat blocked by the Shadow in the Warp, so tyrannids are mostly fighting the physical side.
Granted. But to summon demon requires a lot more energy than to maintain it. How much energy you need directly depends on demon's size/power. Hence, demonic microorganisms or even scrapcode which described to act as malevolent presence in its own right requires microscopic amounts of warp energy to be summoned and to maintain. This is how Nurgle's diseases get into civilian population with no warp storms around or need for sacrifice. Shadow in the Warp is not an absolute insulator of reality from the warp either. In Dawn of War 2 campaign Gabriel Angelos had managed to tear through this shadow and send a message to its defenders. In Chaos Rising psyker Jonah Orion had told that he was fighting Hive Mind presence for weeks which would make Tyranids a psychic race just like Orks who interact with a warp by casting a shadow on it rather than being inert like psychic nulls or Necron.
Furthermore, even with no access to the warp, there are still the living around who can feel. Even Tyranids give miniscule amount of warp energy, because some of them can feel and are conscious. There are more than enough warp energy coming from Chaos worshippers, most warbands keep sizeable portions of cultists just for this sole purpose.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/26 20:48:39
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
What Tyranids do is in any case like a poorly educated laymans understanding of evolution. It is precisely the misconception that most kids have about how evolution works.
They do not undergo evolution by natural selection, what Tyranids do is much more akin to Intelligent Design.
The tyranids have never been stated to evolve by natural selction in the classical sense. So what is the point of your rant?
It depends on how fast the Tyranids are able to break down the disease before it starts to infest the Hive Fleet. If it knows that there is an oncoming material threat and not an immaterial one, they would try to break it down into simple chemicals straight away, but if it is driven by the Immaterium Ii.e. "magic"), then there is probably no way to counter it, unless the Hive Mind blocks it out with Shadow of the Warp.
Several Hive Fleets were ripped in half when the Great Rift came into being, the Shadow having almost no effect. Also, I do think that the Hive Mind could be susceptible to Slaanesh's temptations. Tyranids are obsessed with feeding, and Slaanesh is all about obsession. If he/she could offer the Tyranids the chance to serve him/her in exchange for unlimited food forever, they just might take up the offer.
What Tyranids do is in any case like a poorly educated laymans understanding of evolution. It is precisely the misconception that most kids have about how evolution works.
They do not undergo evolution by natural selection, what Tyranids do is much more akin to Intelligent Design.
The tyranids have never been stated to evolve by natural selction in the classical sense. So what is the point of your rant?
My point is that they do not evolve at all, in the scientific sense. The classical sense is the scientific sense, rather than the general laymans understanding. The Tyranids are actually a race that is intelligently designed. I think that is quite interesting from a background point of view, but it is rarely explored because the people who write the fiction are a bit confused about what words mean.
But so are most people, as demonstrated by your reply.
What Tyranids do is in any case like a poorly educated laymans understanding of evolution. It is precisely the misconception that most kids have about how evolution works.
They do not undergo evolution by natural selection, what Tyranids do is much more akin to Intelligent Design.
The tyranids have never been stated to evolve by natural selction in the classical sense. So what is the point of your rant?
My point is that they do not evolve at all, in the scientific sense. The classical sense is the scientific sense, rather than the general laymans understanding.
You dont seem to understand that the term "evolve" is not reserved for biology. A company can evovle a new sales strategy etc....
If I said that I would take a "shot" at explaning the above to you, would you automatically asume that I was going to shoot you?
I think that is quite interesting from a background point of view, but it is rarely explored because the people who write the fiction are a bit confused about what words mean
But so are most people, as demonstrated by your reply
I think the only oblivious individual here is you..
8th edition codex intro pages:
Spoiler:
"Every weapon and projectile used by the hive fleets is a living organism, grown from the reconstituted biomatter of previous invasions. The Tyranids have no form of mechanical technology and, instead, harness an advanced form of biotechnology to create organic equivalents of the tools, weaponry and ammunition used by other races.... for their armies contain a creature specialised for every conceivable facet of warfare, which can be altered and regrown to suit a battle’s needs..."
From "the devastation of baal":
Spoiler:
"The lictor looked like a creature unto itself. It moved as a solitary organism. It had operated on its own for years, far away from the hive fleet. But it was not apart from the hive mind. That was the mistake the prey always made. Even at this corpuscular level, it was a mistake to see the lictor as a lictor, one of millions; there were not many, there was one. The lictor was the lictor. Every iteration was a copy, better than perfect for aeons of improvement, party to the actions, mistakes and successes of every other lictor that had come before. Welded to the very genes of its being were untold millions of years of experience. And it was on Baal just as it was simultaneously on a thousand other worlds throughout the galaxy.
It put ancient lessons into action. Sight was the easiest sense to fool. The lictor moved at night, when it was harder to see. Chromatic microscales lent it near perfect chameleonic ability even in the full light of day. Deformable organ clusters embedded in its skin allowed it to change its shape somewhat, enabling it to take on the rough texture of stone, or mimic fronds of vegetation. Smell was a more primal sense, harder to deceive because of it. The lictor managed that too. It had virtually no scent. Only when it flooded the air with pheromone trails to guide its kin beasts did its emissions become noticeable. By then it was too late. Most prey could hear, so it made no sound when it moved. Special arrangements of hairs baffled the whisper of its limbs moving over one another.
More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others. Its genetic structure was incredibly complex. Within every cell was billions of years’ worth of adaptation, culled from every lictor, coiled up one over the other. Anything useful to its role, no matter how inconsequential seeming, it retained forever.
Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents.
At night it sprinted tirelessly across the desert, sustained by bladders of super-nutritious fluid contained within its body. The roar of the hive mind was growing stronger by the day, but the lictor was not aware of the mind. It had no sentience. Instead, the mind became aware of the lictor, much in the way a man becomes aware of his limbs only when he thinks of using them.
On it pounded through the nights as the prey creatures’ clumsily engineered warrior caste gathered around the world. As Mephiston dreamed, it loped across the Waste of Enod. As Dante drew up his plans, it crossed the Bloodwise Mounts, bounding tirelessly from crag to crag, its hooves punching sharp holes in the pristine snows of the summits. Where it could, it fed upon Baal’s sparse life to supplement its nutrient fluids, but it did not tire. It stopped to avoid detection, never for rest.
By the time Commander Dante called his Great Red Council to order, the lictor was skittering through the solidified lava fields of the Demitian Badlands. The prey was cunning. If other creatures like itself had made it to Baal, they had been found and destroyed, and it was a long time before it felt the sympathetic life pulses of other tyrannic organisms.
One was all it took, for one was all, and all was one. Wherever there was a sole representative of the species, there was the hive mind.
The final night of Leviathan’s approach drew closer. The lictor burrowed into the crest of a towering dune as Balor burst over the horizon and flooded the desert with ruby light. Its eyes peered through siftings of sand.
Red day struck off a distant fortress, the black of its carved stone stark against the desert. Metal-shell prey conveyances flew from the fortress into the great star sea, and all around it were thousands of the prey warriors.
A feeble number against the onrushing trillions. If the lictor could have, it would have felt contempt. But it did not. It could not. It saw a target like a scope sees a target. It knew without thinking, without being, what it must do. Sophisticated senses appraised the fortress for weakness.
It saw nothing it could use, not yet. It needed more information.
Burrowing deeper into the sand, the lictor settled in to wait"
3rd edition:
Spoiler:
The lore is well established, but you will have to actually open a book (or pdf) to find it..
This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2019/12/27 18:44:19
When we are talking about biological organisms and the changes they undergo in response to their environment, I think it is reasonable to take the biological definition of evolution, personally.
Tyranids are interesting because they do not evolve as other species do.
As to the lore, yeah, I have read loads of it. None of it convinces me that the writers (particularly the modern ones) know or care much about what they are writing about.
Da Boss wrote: When we are talking about biological organisms and the changes they undergo in response to their environment, I think it is reasonable to take the biological definition of evolution, personally.
You're actually the one misusing the term 'evolution' though. You're making the common mistake of treating it as interchangeable with 'evolution by natural selection'. But that's only one type of biological evolution. Any change in the heritable characteristics of a population is evolution in the biological sense. So selective breeding is a form of evolution. Successive rounds of genetic engineering over multiple generations would also be an evolutionary process.
Pretty much none of the Tyranid fluff works at all if you know much about biology. But GW's use of the word 'evolution' is one of the few bits that's not actually wrong.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Selective breeding is still a form of natural selection, it is merely that the selective pressure is the traits which are of interest to humans. It is true that it is not what Darwin was envisaging but it works broadly along the same terms and through the same mechanisms.
Da Boss wrote: When we are talking about biological organisms and the changes they undergo in response to their environment, I think it is reasonable to take the biological definition of evolution, personally.
And why would you ever think that in the case of the tyranids?
It is pretty funny that you are characterising what I posted as a "rant".
I mean, do you feel that I am saying "Tyranids are stupid" or something? I think the idea behind tyranids is actually pretty interesting and I have a great fondness for them as a faction.
I just think the discussion around them and the fiction that GW writes about them shows many misconceptions about evolution.
I teach middle school science, so I have to deal with kids thinking that evolution works like in Pokemon all the time. So I just made a fairly throwaway comment about it, and you responded with a fairly antagonistic response, characterising what I had said as a rant, and then claiming that I was oblivious and did not understand things.
I have been pretty calm throughout this interaction, and am mostly bemused right now.