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I couldn't see anything on the forum on this, so thought I'd start a new thread for general discussion about the book and speculation for what will come next.

Spoilers for The Lost and the Damned.

Specifically what interests me is:

.......... Horus, my bet is Horus

ignoring that joke answer of the loyalists I think we can whittle it down a bit.

first of all, we known it's not Dorn, Sanguinius, or the Khan, because that'd not make any sense in context.

So we have a fairly limited pool of potential primarchs to choose from

Gulliman, Russ, Ferres Manus, the Lion, Vulcan, Corax.

Russ we've gotten into his head eneugh, he;s superstitious etc, IMHO he doesn't make a lot of sense to be the Primarch whose been full briefed. Although I suppose it's possiable he was breifed before hitting Magnus. but I'll go with a "low possiability"

Ferrus Manus- this seems... I dunno unlikely, although the idea that the only primarch who knew about chaos was also the first to die is the kinda ironic situation I could see happening, also we've not gotten inside his head so..

The Lion - ... my inital reaction is "LOL no"

Vulcan: Vulcan strikes me as.... fairly likely TBH, he's one of my top contenders for this.

Corax: ... I dunno my inital reaction was to dismiss him, but at the same time the emperor entrusted him with the secrets of the primarch project. so clearly he's high on the trust scale.

Gulliman: Despite being a am,bitious little empire builder, Gulliman has seemed pretty incorruptable. he's high in the emperor's favor, so he's a possiability, however we've also gotten a lot of looks inside his head and no mention of him having a greater understanding has been mentioned.


over all, my gut feeling is that it's Vulcan

I haven't read the book, so I don't know the exact wording used/manner of speech, but is it specifically implied that the Primarch in question is a loyalist? If it is then my guess is either Russ or Corax.

Russ would make sense as the Emperor sends him to censure Magnus which had the risk of extreme amounts of warp exposure should the Thousand Sons become desperate enough. Additionally it would make sense the explain the warp to the Wolves so they understand how to combat any tricks the TS might bring against them.

Corax

Additionally, both Primarchs head into the warp post heresy, which wouldn't be unreasonable for someone who knows they are immune to chaos corruption.

BrianDavion wrote:
.......... Horus, my bet is Horus

ignoring that joke answer of the loyalists I think we can whittle it down a bit.

first of all, we known it's not Dorn, Sanguinius, or the Khan, because that'd not make any sense in context.

So we have a fairly limited pool of potential primarchs to choose from

Gulliman, Russ, Ferres Manus, the Lion, Vulcan, Corax.

Russ we've gotten into his head eneugh, he;s superstitious etc, IMHO he doesn't make a lot of sense to be the Primarch whose been full briefed. Although I suppose it's possiable he was breifed before hitting Magnus. but I'll go with a "low possiability"

Ferrus Manus- this seems... I dunno unlikely, although the idea that the only primarch who knew about chaos was also the first to die is the kinda ironic situation I could see happening, also we've not gotten inside his head so..

The Lion - ... my inital reaction is "LOL no"

Vulcan: Vulcan strikes me as.... fairly likely TBH, he's one of my top contenders for this.

Corax: ... I dunno my inital reaction was to dismiss him, but at the same time the emperor entrusted him with the secrets of the primarch project. so clearly he's high on the trust scale.

Gulliman: Despite being a am,bitious little empire builder, Gulliman has seemed pretty incorruptable. he's high in the emperor's favor, so he's a possiability, however we've also gotten a lot of looks inside his head and no mention of him having a greater understanding has been mentioned.


over all, my gut feeling is that it's Vulcan

My thought process is similar. I think the traitors can be discounted (with a possible exception...)

Of the loyalists:

The Khan, Snaguinius and Dorn are ruled out as you say, by the context of the discussion.

Ferrus - possible but unlikely. The fact that he's been killed off makes it easier to say he knew, but his initial reaction to Fulgrim's advances and his apparent lack of knowledge at Istvan rules him out on balance I think.

Guilliman - I think not. I don't have a reference but I seem to remember that there was some doubt on whether he'd remain loyal or not early in the HH series. Maybe in Discussions between Malcador and the Emperor when they are doing tarot cards or playing Regicide? Otr Maybe it was between Malcador and Russ.

Russ - Possible, he seems to have a grasp on the difference between his Shamans and Sorcerors, but on balance i think not, largely due to his reaction to Magnus when he fights him and later with Horus. An Outside chance its Russ.

Lion - I think this is a hard no - he seems genuinely surprised when he first encounters daemons.

Corax - His loyalty never seems to be in doubt and he was entrusted with the genetic secrets to rebuild his legion, but doesn't seem to understand the corruption of the new marines when the geneseed was poisoned so I think we have to rule him out.

Vulkan - The only one left, so more by a process of elimination than any actulal display of knowledge or through his behaviour. Also he is trusted to guard the Webway so it suggests that maybe he already knew about the warp etc.


Other options could be one of the 2 unknown Primarchs (2nd and 11th) WE really know nothing about them, and the reson for them being purged from history could be nothing to do with the warp or loyalty. I wouldn't like it to be one of these two though. Seems a bit sloppy.

Of the traitors, possibly Alpharius/Omegon, or maybe one of the two was briefed and not the other. Unlikely, but I don't think it can be ruled out completely.


On balance, I've got to say I agree Vulkan seems the most likely, but I'm not 100% sure. If not for the context of the initial discussion, I'd have gone with the Khan - his loyalty never seems to be in doubt, just his reliability, and he seems to have a firm grasp of whats going on regarding the dangers of sorcery and the warp, and the importance on Librarians etc.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jack Flask wrote:
I haven't read the book, so I don't know the exact wording used/manner of speech, but is it specifically implied that the Primarch in question is a loyalist? If it is then my guess is either Russ or Corax.

Russ would make sense as the Emperor sends him to censure Magnus which had the risk of extreme amounts of warp exposure should the Thousand Sons become desperate enough. Additionally it would make sense the explain the warp to the Wolves so they understand how to combat any tricks the TS might bring against them.

Corax

Spoiler:

is seen in the 41st millennium to be hunting the traitors in the warp, as revenge for the Drop Site Massacre, while being described as a being of darkness and shadow. This implies some level of physical mutation however "resistance to corruption" could imply more of a mental/spiritual resistance rather than physical one.

Additionally, both Primarchs head into the warp post heresy, which wouldn't be unreasonable for someone who knows they are immune to chaos corruption.

It isn't specifically said that the one who was told was a loyalist, but that is my inference.

Malcador, Valdon, Sanguinius, Dorn and the Khan are discussing the warp and that none of them were forewarned. Dorn says that he should have been told and Malcador tells him he is fundamentally unable to understand it, and that telling them would have made things even worse:

..."Let us take you, Dorn. You were made to command the material realm. Nothing in this world is beyond your grasp. But understanding of the warp would have eluded you. Being a man who desires mastery of all things, you would have been drawn to study it, and in doing so, you would have fallen. You are resistant to the dangers in the dark, but no one is immune." He paused. "Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start. He was told."
"Who?" said Dorn in surprise. "I thought this was kept from all of us?"
"Which one could have known?" said Sanguinius. "Jaghatai?"
The Khan shook his head. He was not so concerned as his brothers at his lack of forewarning. "It was not I." ...

I do like that they confirm nobody is immune to Chaos. I've always hated the idea some people just get inherent immunity.

Personally I'd guess it would be Russ, Vulkan or Corax. Corax and Vulkan are largely compassionate and focused on things like freedom enough that Chaos isn't massively appealing to them. Russ largely doesn't question much and weirdly the superstitious upbringing helps because it reinforces the idea that the response to Chaos is to punch a demon and get a beer.

Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start.

That wording is not filling me with confidence that it can't be one of the nine traitors.

Remember Horus covering up the whisperheads incident? It'd be ironic if his resilience to chaos was part of why he became war master...

I think it must be Magnus.

I agree that it isn't definitely a loyalist, but i think it more likely than not. As for Magnus, I don't see it being him, i think the line about it not being Dorn being "drawn to study it, and in doing so, you would have fallen" also applies to Magnus, and Mortarion too for that matter.

If it was a traitor Primarch (I'm open to being convinced, but at the moment don't think it is), then they would have to at the very least have "had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start". Of all the Primarchs, I think Magnus definitely didn't have the mettle to resist at the start.

Magnus was arguably the first Primarch to fall to Chaos becuase he made his secret pact with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change, although he didn't know he'd fallen and it only came back to bite him much later. I don't see him doing that if he had been made aware of the warp and its dangers.

As others have said I think Vulkan and Corax are both good picks. We know Vulkan was trusted enough to guard the palace and Corax with information on the primarch project and ability to master the warp in the way we see him do.

I don't think it'sGuiliman or Ferrus because the bit about Dorn would apply to them. We do see Ferrus' clones refuse to be turned traitor by Fulgrim time and time again so we know he is VERY loyal, but nothing especially jumps out to me at least to indicate he had some higher understanding of the warp.

Russ is a solid dark horse here. He has that personality of being the guy who is so straight forward and loyal he doesn't really jump out at me as the guy who's desire to learn would lead him to damnation like it would so many others.

I don't think it's any of the traitor primarchs, but it would be rather ironic if it was indeed Horus which would make some sense as he was the favored of the Emperor.

BrianDavion wrote:.......... Horus, my bet is Horus

ignoring that joke answer of the loyalists I think we can whittle it down a bit.

first of all, we known it's not Dorn, Sanguinius, or the Khan, because that'd not make any sense in context.

So we have a fairly limited pool of potential primarchs to choose from

Gulliman, Russ, Ferres Manus, the Lion, Vulcan, Corax.

Russ we've gotten into his head eneugh, he;s superstitious etc, IMHO he doesn't make a lot of sense to be the Primarch whose been full briefed. Although I suppose it's possiable he was breifed before hitting Magnus. but I'll go with a "low possiability"

Ferrus Manus- this seems... I dunno unlikely, although the idea that the only primarch who knew about chaos was also the first to die is the kinda ironic situation I could see happening, also we've not gotten inside his head so..

The Lion - ... my inital reaction is "LOL no"

Vulcan: Vulcan strikes me as.... fairly likely TBH, he's one of my top contenders for this.

Corax: ... I dunno my inital reaction was to dismiss him, but at the same time the emperor entrusted him with the secrets of the primarch project. so clearly he's high on the trust scale.

Gulliman: Despite being a am,bitious little empire builder, Gulliman has seemed pretty incorruptable. he's high in the emperor's favor, so he's a possiability, however we've also gotten a lot of looks inside his head and no mention of him having a greater understanding has been mentioned.


over all, my gut feeling is that it's Vulcan

well since the Lion is full on chaos......


but in all seriousness Vulkan is the one entrusted with (we assume) the detonator/deadmans switch for the golden throne & we dont know the entirety of BiggiE's download to him. So it makes the most sense that out of all the loyalists, he would be the one entrusted with the dangerous information.

Now, if it was one of the traitors, many many questions are brought up. Did the info help to corrupt or stave off said corruption? It wouldnt be Horus(too naive), Lorgar(corrupted on day 1), Perturabo(too self aggrandizing), Mortarian(ignorant of his own "dads" chaosness), Fulgrim(too full of themselves), & Angron(too angry).

Now that leave us with 3 possible candidates;
Kurze: I think this makes the most sense as he has prescient visions and if given the knowledge would really fall into the fatalist mindset, but really be pushed by Horus off the edge.
Alpharius/Omegon: Out of all the "traitors", they may be best equipped to handle the info & the fact that we're not sure if they/both/one of them are loyal or not.

I'd not dismiss Horus out of the gate, as Warmaster it's safe to assume he would know somethings his brother might not, trhe whisperheads, as someone else noted is evidance Horus knew SOMETHING of Chaos,

Jack Flask wrote:
Russ would make sense as the Emperor sends him to censure Magnus which had the risk of extreme amounts of warp exposure should the Thousand Sons become desperate enough. Additionally it would make sense the explain the warp to the Wolves so they understand how to combat any tricks the TS might bring against them.

I just can't see it. Wolfwolf "we're totally not just using psykers, it's wolfwolfspirits LOL" is pretty ignorant and hypocritical as it is, saying this after the Emperor actually explained the thing to you smells of ego bigger than the one Horus had and inability to actually comprehend said topic. I'd definitely pick Ferrus over Russ in this, Hands even have anti-psyker stratagems in their supplement. Alternatively Perturabo, he is the only traitor who didn't jumped head first into the whole warp thing and the only one remaining sane in Solar War books.

Any chance it was II or XI who then proceeded to do something horrible with this knowledge and had to be purged as a reason? Would also explain why the Emperor stopped trying to explain stuff to primarchs, especially Magnus.

Funnily enough, what if it was Angron, who then had his immunity completely ruined by nails? But I can't see the Emperor explaining anything to him, nor did Angron ever demonstrated such knowledge, unless nails made him forget everything not letting him focus on understanding it.

I also can't see it being Alpha legion, because then siding with xenos and later with traitors makes no sense whatsoever.

 Irbis wrote:
Any chance it was II or XI who then proceeded to do something horrible with this knowledge and had to be purged as a reason? Would also explain why the Emperor stopped trying to explain stuff to primarchs, especially Magnus.

This is actually the reason I originally asked Aash if if specifies that the one told was a loyalist, because I'm pretty sure from the words that Malcador uses it's meant to imply that it was one of the lost Primarchs.

Specifically, the line "Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start. He was told." That "at the start" seems to contextually refer to the beginning of the Great Crusade, rather than the beginning of a specific Primarch's operation or the opening of the Horus Heresy. That information is consistent then with a couple of the previously provided clues about one of the missing two. Note I haven't read a lot of these books myself and this is largely being taken from Lexicanum so you can see their collected article for better citations and/or contribute to correcting any inaccuracies.



There are quite a few additional bits related to the lost Primarchs which imply some sort of impurity or betrayal however a lot of it is supposition based on fear by the remaining Primarchs of having their own legions censured, so i've left those out. Based on the above three specific pieces of information though it seems possible that one of the two had direct knowledge of Chaos especially given the reference to the Ymga Monolith and interest of the Gal Vorbak which are both only significant in their strong relation to the Warp/Chaos.

Additionally, the information from Malcador that all the remaining Primarchs had their memories erased makes it possible that one or both of the lost could have fallen to/been corrupted by Chaos and none of the Primarchs would be aware of it prior to the Heresy, especially if said corruption was much more subtle than that of the Word Bearers (who are largely responsible for guiding the various Legions in becoming as corrupted as they did). This would also make sense in relation to the Gal Vorbak's statements as it might have led to increased scrutiny by the Emperor and potentially blown the Word Bearer's cover.

EDIT:
I'm going to leave my above post, but I was just reminded while reading this thread that in "Horus Rising" Horus sits down with Loken after they are forced to kill Xayver Jubal who was possessed by Samus. During this talk Horus is both unphased by the concept of daemonic possession and also has quite a large amount of knowledge regarding the warp (prior to any of the Word Bearers corruption schemes), however he specifically makes mention of daemons as being just another type of xenos (which seems and incredibly Emperor of Mankind way of looking at it).

So actually I'd say it's highly likely that Horus was the one who had been told.

Jack Flask wrote:
So actually I'd say it's highly likely that Horus was the one who had been told.

One slight problem here - if Horus knew/was immune, why he had so much problems with Temba, and why he was laid low by a single stab of nurgle knife? You'd expect better resistance, even Mortarion needed days of torture before breaking...

I'd assume it was Russ. He was raised in a culture that seems to have a healthy respect and distrust of what is essentially the warp and warp entities. Russ would already have been prepared to resist "maleficarum" and had a foundational understanding of the "wights of the underverse". Had the Emperor just said, "the underverse is real and we call it the warp", Russ would likely have said "noted, so keep treating it like we treat it now". "Right, and don't tell your brothers."

 Kriswall wrote:
Had the Emperor just said, "the underverse is real and we call it the warp", Russ would likely have said "noted, so keep treating it like we treat it now". "Right, and don't tell your brothers."

More like "and keep telling them obvious nonsense no one believes anyway, aka your psykers are totally not psykers, and they totally use wolfwolf spirits, not warp, especially when you give speech at very important council which will basically make most of the primarchs hate my own position since you will try to support it with superstitious voodoo no one can agree with".

Also, upon thinking, I just can't see it being Russ or Horus. Both because tiptoeing around the issue makes no sense. Why not just say "alas, I told Horus but he fell anyway" or "I told Russ to make him better at his task"? That sort of annoyingly blurry dodge is usually reserved for II and XI...

I can see him resvering who knew to avoid making their brothers resent them Horus is unlikely because then Malcador could have just said "Horus alone was told of the truth, and he fell"

The only Primarch who has shown prior knowledge of Chaos upon contact was Alpharius/Omegon. They also stated that they knew the Emperor wanted Chaos destroyed. That was their justification for listening to the cabal. Everyone else seemed blind-sided by Chaos but Alpha clearly already knew, even to the point of knowing the Emperor's opinions/plans regarding Chaos.

Alpharius gazed at the autarch levelly. ‘I stand for the Emperor,’ he replied. ‘In all things, I am loyal to Him, and I cannot break that bond. He has many great ambitions, and the noblest of intentions, but I know that above all else, He is determined to stand firm against the rise of Chaos. He has always known the truth of it. The overthrow of the Primordial Annihilator is His greatest wish. So what I do, autarch, from this moment on, I will do for the Emperor.’

Horus, for the reasons Jack Flask noted in his Edit.

Aash wrote:
Lion - I think this is a hard no - he seems genuinely surprised when he first encounters daemons.

Still could be the Lion though, given the chaos corrupted Beasts of Caliban and his survival against those.

Just because he was surprised by daemons, and possibly never considered the Beasts to be chaos tainted, it would depend on when he was "fully briefed", and what such briefing entailed.

It is also entirely possible that said briefing did not entirely prepare him for seeing actual daemons, much like you can explain the death bringing horrors of Australia without pictures.

Well, Space Wolves have always had a higher resistance to Chaos than other non-Grey Knight marines. Case in point, the Thirteenth Company rocking it in the Eye taking names for 10 millennia without actually falling to Chaos.
Given that individual First Founding chapters all take after their daddy, my money's on Russ. Maybe being superstitious or not has nothing to do with it. Strength of will and character, on the other hand...

Bran Dawri wrote:
Well, Space Wolves have always had a higher resistance to Chaos than other non-Grey Knight marines. Case in point, the Thirteenth Company rocking it in the Eye taking names for 10 millennia without actually falling to Chaos.
Given that individual First Founding chapters all take after their daddy, my money's on Russ. Maybe being superstitious or not has nothing to do with it. Strength of will and character, on the other hand...

I'm still thinking Russ, but I can also see the argument for Alpharius/Omegon.

Finished it over Christmas break and it was... OK.

My spoiler-free review:

I stopped following the Horus Heresy series when it became clear the series has no end in sight and would be padded out as long as there was money to be made. More than 10 years and 50 books later it seems I made the right call. But I've come back for the Siege of Terra and... more padding.

The first book, Solar War had a system-wide battle and planet-shattering action. In this book... the forces of Chaos advance 10 feet towards the walls of the palace. OK, maybe it was more like a mile or two, but you get the idea. Guy Haley does the best he can within the limitations of the editorially-mandated outline (his author's statement reads like an apology) by creating well-developed defenders and attackers. There are heroic pilots, frightened conscripts and barbaric beastmen all brought to life to participate in this ultimate battle, and the trip is enjoyable enough. A Night Lord meets his final fate, we see more of Horus' fall and loss of self, we get some horrors of trench warfare.

But in the end... the enemy advances ten feet. A particular low point is when Sanguinius and Angron face off near the end, scowl at each other and then both go home to fight another day.

I'm not sure how many more books are planned for Siege of Terra. I had planned to follow to the end but if the next book is as pointlessly padded as this one I may bow out. If you're on the fence and if you're not a completist, this book can probably be skipped, or at least wait for a cheaper paperback.

Is there an official word of how long they will drag out the siege of Terra? Warhammer Community says there's books from Abnett and McNeil this year which actually worries me. There was speculation that Abnett would end the series since he started it and if he's coming in this early either it will be a 4 book series... or they're going to drag it out for another year or two.

Don't forget the Scouring!

Nurglitch wrote:
Don't forget the Scouring!

Oh I assume there will either be a 20 book Scouring series or a 20 book great crusade series (which is where they should have started IMHO) or a 20 book Unification Wars series, or all of the above. I'm just in till the big sword fight on the Battle barge.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Finished it over Christmas break and it was... OK.

My spoiler-free review:

Spoiler:

I stopped following the Horus Heresy series when it became clear the series has no end in sight and would be padded out as long as there was money to be made. More than 10 years and 50 books later it seems I made the right call. But I've come back for the Siege of Terra and... more padding.

The first book, Solar War had a system-wide battle and planet-shattering action. In this book... the forces of Chaos advance 10 feet towards the walls of the palace. OK, maybe it was more like a mile or two, but you get the idea. Guy Haley does the best he can within the limitations of the editorially-mandated outline (his author's statement reads like an apology) by creating well-developed defenders and attackers. There are heroic pilots, frightened conscripts and barbaric beastmen all brought to life to participate in this ultimate battle, and the trip is enjoyable enough. A Night Lord meets his final fate, we see more of Horus' fall and loss of self, we get some horrors of trench warfare.

But in the end... the enemy advances ten feet. A particular low point is when Sanguinius and Angron face off near the end, scowl at each other and then both go home to fight another day.

I'm not sure how many more books are planned for Siege of Terra. I had planned to follow to the end but if the next book is as pointlessly padded as this one I may bow out. If you're on the fence and if you're not a completist, this book can probably be skipped, or at least wait for a cheaper paperback.

Is there an official word of how long they will drag out the siege of Terra? Warhammer Community says there's books from Abnett and McNeil this year which actually worries me. There was speculation that Abnett would end the series since he started it and if he's coming in this early either it will be a 4 book series... or they're going to drag it out for another year or two.

They did state how long the series would be at the start - pretty sure it was at most ten, but I think it was less than that.

keep in mind that "thousands of lives lost.. all to advance ten feet" isn't exactly a unknown thing in war. hell that pretty much sums up WW1

They have said that the series will be eight books long from start to finish, with some tie in novellas and short stories with little bearing on the main events. Dan Abnett is writing the final book in the series, as it should be.

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind that "thousands of lives lost.. all to advance ten feet" isn't exactly a unknown thing in war. hell that pretty much sums up WW1

Um yeah. And look you just told that in 2 lines! Lost and the Damned needed 300 pages and $20!