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Hello, I normally prime my models with cheap spray primer, and have no complaints about this method.

Anyways, I was using some of the cheap walmart Black (Apple Tree? Anyways I like it better than Citadel and Vallejo blacks).

I had a bunch of leftover black paint, so wondered what happened if I "primed" a plastic model with the cheap black, and it seemed to work perfectly? Is there any reason not to use acrylics as a primer?

P.S. This would not save me any time or money, as spray primer is super cheap, and takes alot less time. I just frequently have leftover black paint, and dont like wasting stuff

Well...I mean...the point of priming is to help the paint stick to the model. So you aren't priming the model, you are painting it. It will chip off.

Murphy1979 wrote:
Hello, I normally prime my models with cheap spray primer, and have no complaints about this method.

Anyways, I was using some of the cheap walmart Black (Apple Tree? Anyways I like it better than Citadel and Vallejo blacks).

I had a bunch of leftover black paint, so wondered what happened if I "primed" a plastic model with the cheap black, and it seemed to work perfectly? Is there any reason not to use acrylics as a primer?

P.S. This would not save me any time or money, as spray primer is super cheap, and takes alot less time. I just frequently have leftover black paint, and dont like wasting stuff

If you are asking if you can hand prime miniatures with just acrylic black paint. no.

The purpose of a primer is to help bond other layers onto direct plastic. normal acrylic paints dont really do that too well. its not a big deal to touch up areas missed by spray priming. but if you intend on handling the model for gaming purposes probably not.

Just to be clear ecause I alwas wonder this. Does the GW spray paints qualify for what you call primer?

Thanks for the info. I'll prime over the model I "primed" withe acrylic.

Hey Niaii, when you use Citadel black spray paint, you are paying double or more than cheap black spray paint that actually looks better (and for primer, looks dont even matter) and works alot better.

I would recommend Krylon or Rustoleum primers, if they are available in your locale. You'll save money and get a superior product.

However, I would stay away from all Krylon or Rustoleum finishing products, as I've found they are very inconsistent from can to can. Unless you want a gloss for some reason, Testors Dullcote is far and away the best spray lacquer I've used for minis. It's a bit costly but worth the extra money IMO.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.

 Niiai wrote:
Just to be clear ecause I alwas wonder this. Does the GW spray paints qualify for what you call primer?

Technically, no. Functionally, yes.

And what is the difference betwean technically and functionally?

I used to just use a grey basecoat when I didn't have primer. I'd always try to use a spray primer, mainly for ease, but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme. I've even forgotten to prime models before and just painted them.

 Niiai wrote:
And what is the difference betwean technically and functionally?

It comes down to chemical composition of the two products.

Most color primers are a combination of spray paint (pigments) and primer agent (typically synthetic resin). In technical sense, primer's true role is to 'candy coat' the surface - as in, make a shell in which subsequent paint can adhere to.

I don't have a MSDS of GW sprays to give you an exact account, but GW's formulation is more akin to standard spray paint without the primer agent. You will notice that while GW spray give you a nice smooth coat, it's noticeably more translucent than a color primer. Primers generally yield more opaque results.

At functional level, GW's formulation still allows for subsequent layers of paints to adhere. Comparatively, you will find that applying thinned down paint to regular spray paints to be difficult as formulation for typical spray paints are not designed to accept water soluble paints very well.

So it comes down to the difference of "apply color" vs "apply colored shell". While not a true primer, GW's sprays are formulated so that it serves all of the purposes of a primer as far as its uses go for miniature painting.

You will find the difference between spray paint & primers to be more noticeable if you apply it to a porous surface such as wood. Spray paints will leave blotchy finish while primers will give you a more uniform finish.

So when gw called the sprays undercoat many years ago, where they not primers?

Im talking about skull white and chaos black

My experience with using black Games Workshop spray as a primer is that it required 2 passes in order to fully coat the model. Cheap primer takes 1 pass.

So let's say GW spray is 2x the cost of, say, Krylon. It's actually 4x the cost, because the GW spray requires two coats.

I've never bought any Games Workshop spray paint since that experiment. If someone gave me a can, I wouldn't use it.

 Rybrook wrote:
So when gw called the sprays undercoat many years ago, where they not primers?

Im talking about skull white and chaos black

The "citadel colour" line of products (old ones with the red squig) sprays were primers. They were near identical to "armory" brand (the ones with cartoon characters) in terms of finish.

It just seems to me that your defenition (and the defenition of many people on this forum when it was been asked before) of a primer is rather undefined.

It seems like you are looking for some spesific agent in the paint that fall into the defenition of primer. But this is never clearly defined. It might be a collective of different agents that could cualify for this.

That leaves the defenition of a primer as something your prime your models with to paint upon. Let is call this the colloquial term. Now this defenition seems to be functional.

When I have asked other people about this on this forum they tend to break down with methaphores instead of an actual defenition of what they meen with primer except 'something that could fit into the colloquial term, but some how is something that is not that.'

I have striped a lot of models of paint. And this latest patch of GW spray primers (product name) is much harder to wash off then when I do not prime them with a spray. (For example when I prime them with a brush and abbadon black.)

This would lead me to belive that the GW primer product would qualify under the defenition of primer and not just the colloquial term.

In my local aria I have also tryed to prime my models with other paint (army painters primer, and some local art shop paints) and the latest batch of GW primers (product) has been the best of all the once I have tryed. The local art shop paint made a better surface, but it was thick and clocked up the details.

In the end, I have a hard time seeing the argument that I should go out of my way to use the GW paints. But that is from my understanding of the arguments represented.

I tryed to find out more. It is very hard to find a good article that explains the primer component of miniature paints. This article lists the GW as the best version they have tried.
https://tangibleday.com/top-10-primers-for-plastic-and-metal-miniatures-reviews-and-tips/

However, it does not gi into the primer part that the wikipedia article of primer in paint talks about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primer_(paint)

 skchsan wrote:

 Rybrook wrote:
So when gw called the sprays undercoat many years ago, where they not primers?

Im talking about skull white and chaos black

The "citadel colour" line of products (old ones with the red squig) sprays were primers. They were near identical to "armory" brand (the ones with cartoon characters) in terms of finish.

Thats them, the red squig they also had a very destinct smell too

40K Conquest painting guide is based on the assumption that Citadel Base paints can function as a primer over plastic.

This is mostly true. Citadel Base paints are thicker than average, though less thick than some on the market. I wouldn't consider an average acrylic paint to service as a primer.

From my own experience I would stick with spray cans, if you have troubles choose a decent white, either Tamiya or Army Painter. You will have the fewest complications with these. You can end up with anything from a single spray of matt white. Unless I have a specific result in mind I default back to this.

I have tried alternative primers such a gesso and generally regret the results. Though others get it to work.

 Niiai wrote:
It just seems to me that your defenition (and the defenition of many people on this forum when it was been asked before) of a primer is rather undefined.

No, primer is specifically formulated with a priming agent. Spray paints generally do not have priming agent. It has become common place for products that do both (primer & paint) i.e. your standard colored primers.

 Niiai wrote:
It seems like you are looking for some spesific agent in the paint that fall into the defenition of primer. But this is never clearly defined. It might be a collective of different agents that could cualify for this.

Yes there are different formulations of primers for different applications. Primers are specific type of product.

 Niiai wrote:
That leaves the defenition of a primer as something your prime your models with to paint upon. Let is call this the colloquial term. Now this defenition seems to be functional.

When I have asked other people about this on this forum they tend to break down with methaphores instead of an actual defenition of what they meen with primer except 'something that could fit into the colloquial term, but some how is something that is not that.'

This is 'all rectangles are squares' fallacy. The act of priming (as it concerns painting) is the act of creating a surface for subsequent paints. Primers prime the surface, but not all that which prime a surface are primers. For example, gesso is a primer for canvas. You can choose to lay on a thick layer of paints to prime the surface (since acrylic has no problem sitting on top of acrylic paint). However at the end of the day, you did not use a primer.

 Niiai wrote:
I have striped a lot of models of paint. And this latest patch of GW spray primers (product name) is much harder to wash off then when I do not prime them with a spray. (For example when I prime them with a brush and abbadon black.)

This is because rattlecan based products are not water soluble while brushed on paint is.

 Niiai wrote:
This would lead me to belive that the GW primer product would qualify under the defenition of primer and not just the colloquial term.

As I have said, there are technical differences, not functional. All primers can prime, but not everything that can prime a surface is a primer.

 Niiai wrote:
In my local aria I have also tryed to prime my models with other paint (army painters primer, and some local art shop paints) and the latest batch of GW primers (product) has been the best of all the once I have tryed. The local art shop paint made a better surface, but it was thick and clocked up the details.

This sounds like a typical user error & personal preference, rather than "this product is better than that"

 Niiai wrote:
In the end, I have a hard time seeing the argument that I should go out of my way to use the GW paints. But that is from my understanding of the arguments represented.

I think you've largely misunderstood the posts. I generally find GW sprays to be good products - but at their price, I can find more "miniature-appropriate" products (for those who feel uncomfortable using automotive products for their minatures)that do the same job for less.

Primers will chip off metal models whereas spray paints will rub off.

Just to add a third option here, I recently bought a Paint + Primer product (one of the cheapos, cant remembee which) and it's worth considering if you want to avoid a step of basecoaring after priming.

For example, I am slowly working on a Black Legion army. The paint+primer gives a good black, and you dont have to base coat. It starts too glossy, but between washing and a Dullcote treatment, the evil gloss is gone. Anyways that's how I'll be priming and base coating the rest of my Black Legion figs.

This loose use of the same word to mean at least three different things is very confusing. (The product name, the colloquial term of applying paint to a miniature, and this special coating that is defined as a primer.)

What is the 'all rectangles are squares' fallacy?

And in the end I am no closer to understand what I should use instead of a GW spray can, if anything.

 Niiai wrote:
This loose use of the same word to mean at least three different things is very confusing. (The product name, the colloquial term of applying paint to a miniature, and this special coating that is defined as a primer.)

What is the 'all rectangles are squares' fallacy?

And in the end I am no closer to understand what I should use instead of a GW spray can, if anything.

I can understand the confusion. Think of it this way - an object can be "primed' or "primer'ed".

A product labelled as "primer" should contain a priming agent. The main role of a primer is to create a semi-porous shell. Application of color is an added bonus. There are clear primers as well.

You can use the GW sprays to prime a model - it give you all the benefits of a primer without the granular addition of thickness. But it's typically the price point that drive people away from this product. It's an easy-to-use product with more room for user error.

Primers generally garner the reputation of being too thick on the models - this is easily circumvented by shaking the can properly. Rattle cans should be shaken to a point where the agitator feels like it's rolling around in an empty can.

 Niiai wrote:
This loose use of the same word to mean at least three different things is very confusing. (The product name, the colloquial term of applying paint to a miniature, and this special coating that is defined as a primer.)

What is the 'all rectangles are squares' fallacy?

And in the end I am no closer to understand what I should use instead of a GW spray can, if anything.

It's easy.

1) The Verb: You prime a pump by running it a little bit to work the air out of the line. To prime something is to prepare it

verb
verb: prime; 3rd person present: primes; past tense: primed; past participle: primed; gerund or present participle: priming

1.
make (something) ready for use or action.
prepare (a firearm or explosive device) for firing or detonation.

2) the product: Primer

Primer IS NOT paint. It's not paint with something added to it. It's not paint. Paint does a different job. Primer is it's own product. It does it's own job that prepares the surface for application of paints. Paint and primer in 1 is a sales gimmik that does not really exist. They mean all paint sticks to itself. Which all paint does. There are some products that do have good adhesion to surfaces that traditionally have problems like DTM (direct to metal). But it's not a primer. It's a paint that is trying to sell itself as skipping the priming step. The best option is still to prime.



So you Prime (verb) your model with a Primer (the product) so that your paint has the best possible surface to adhere to. So you buy a primer designed for plastic. Or metal if painting metal. It's not vague what makes a primer different from paint. You are comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same thing.

 Niiai wrote:
This loose use of the same word to mean at least three different things is very confusing. (The product name, the colloquial term of applying paint to a miniature, and this special coating that is defined as a primer.)

What is the 'all rectangles are squares' fallacy?

And in the end I am no closer to understand what I should use instead of a GW spray can, if anything.

"A primer (/ˈpraɪmər/) or undercoat is a preparatory coating put on materials before painting. Priming ensures better adhesion of paint to the surface, increases paint durability, and provides additional protection for the material being painted"

per wiki.

There are a lot of different types of primers for different applications. be it a type of resin base like polyurethane on plastics, chemical etching agent for things like metals, or some special chemicals that allow paint to attach to polypropylene which is very hard to do.

Unfortunately i cant find any MSDS on citadel stuff for some reason. but would love to know.

though looking at other aerosol sprays. most seem to contain acetone which would etch plastic which probably assists in making a stronger undercoat bond. though im not a scientist.

edit: regular acrylic paint out of the pot has nothing in it besides acrylic medium pigments and water. non of which effects styrene plastic.

 Niiai wrote:


And in the end I am no closer to understand what I should use instead of a GW spray can, if anything.

I have alot of painted 40k models. Almost everyone was primed with cheap, automotive primer like Krylon or Rustoleum. I have compared them to more expensive "hobby primers" like GW, and either found no difference at all, or preferred the automotive primer.

I have used it on plastic, metal, amd resin from several different sources, and never had a single problem that wasnt user related (not enough shaking or nozzle to close to the fig when spraying).

There is no need to buy specialty hobby primer unless you enjoy lighting your money on fire.

So that's the the third time I've recommended the cheap, effective solution. I promise I'll shut up about it now.

I've never understood cutting corners with the undercoat. Buy an actual primer. Vallejo, Army Painter, Krylon, Rustoleum, Duplicote, whatever.

Any paint in the world can "stick" to a surface but for maximum adhesion to whatever surface you intend to put paint on use an "actual" primer.

And for the love of all that is holy don't spend $17 on a can of Citadel spray paint. Spend $100 on an AB, learn to use it and shoot all of your normal acrylics through it or failing that, take your favorite color to Lowes or any other DIY store, get them to make it into an aerosol for you for maybe $5 or 6 dollars and use that.

And no, the rattle cans that stores make for you from whatever color you want is not "worst" or "thicker" than anything you buy on the shelf. And they are near enough of a color match (they do use a computer to analyze the color spectrums) that the human eye can't see the difference between Ultramines Blue that GW produces and that same Citadel Ultramarines Blue made into an aerosol at Walmart or Lowes or Home Depot.

I realize the models are expensive but why drop $100 on a battlesuit and then try to spend less than $1 dollar painting it (since it's not going to take an entire jar of paint unless you are REALLY doing something wrong).

The semiotic sign 'primer' is what is confusing here. It points to different things. Also people seem to have different opinion on it.

@Murphy1979Made you recomend the cheap, effective solution. I do not know what that is. I am also not sure if any product I buy will work as a primer (the bonding agent) and not clog up my details.

@jivardi how would it help me to buy a cheap AB and paint acrylic paints though it? How does that make a better primer (the bonding agent)? Living in Norway I also do not have a cheap option of making my own aerosol. Also, how does this solve the rimer (the bonding agent)? You also recomend making an aerosol because it is cheap, while afterwards not understand why somebody would use cheap paint on an exspenive model.

@Desubot would acetone in the sprays work with the plastic and function as the primer (the bonding agent) as the other people are on about?

 Niiai wrote:
would acetone in the sprays work with the plastic and function as the primer (the bonding agent) as the other people are on about?

Unless you are able to remove all water from the said paint, no it will not work as acetone will evaporate before having to affect the surface.

You can try to dissolve dried up acrylic paints in acetone and apply that instead - this will be close to what GW sprays do.

There are a few things the primer helps fight so your paint can stick:

- Mold release: there can be some of that still on the plastic/resin/pewter that is intended to keep the model from sticking in the mold: clean the model very well.

- Most primers have a slight solvent in them (usually compatible with polystyrene) so that helps with dissolving any oils or contaminants so it is helpful.

- Many primers I see conform or shrink onto the surface which helps a great deal for adhesion.

- Roughing or sanding the surfaces lend more "tooth" or surface area the paint to grip onto so a light sanding would assist.

I would strongly recommend against just applying acrylic directly on, handling a model after eating a pizza can ruin your day.

 Niiai wrote:

@Murphy1979Made you recomend the cheap, effective solution. I do not know what that is. I am also not sure if any product I buy will work as a primer (the bonding agent) and not clog up my details.

The cheap, effective solution is to buy inexpensive primer like Krylon or Rustoleum. In my area of the US, this would cost you $4-6.

I have an experiment I'd like you to try. Get two unprimed, unpainted modelsytou dont care much about. Buy a bottle of GW spray paint. Then buy a bottle of Krylon or Rustoleum primer.

Apply the GW to one, and the cheap primer to the other. See which you prefer, or if you can tell any difference at all.

If the cheap primers are applied to a figure using the instructions on the primer bottle, the details on the figurine will not get clogged. However, if you do not follow the instructions, just like any other product you may see problems, specifically if you do not shake the can long enough, and when you spray if the nozzle is too close to the figure. Or if you spray when it's too cold or too humid, you can have problems. Again, this will be true for any primer, cheap or expensive.

I highly recommend this test for you, and then go with what you like best for the $.

 Niiai wrote:
The semiotic sign 'primer' is what is confusing here. It points to different things. Also people seem to have different opinion on it.

@Murphy1979Made you recomend the cheap, effective solution. I do not know what that is. I am also not sure if any product I buy will work as a primer (the bonding agent) and not clog up my details.

@jivardi how would it help me to buy a cheap AB and paint acrylic paints though it? How does that make a better primer (the bonding agent)? Living in Norway I also do not have a cheap option of making my own aerosol. Also, how does this solve the rimer (the bonding agent)? You also recomend making an aerosol because it is cheap, while afterwards not understand why somebody would use cheap paint on an exspenive model.

@Desubot would acetone in the sprays work with the plastic and function as the primer (the bonding agent) as the other people are on about?

Look at the products you are buying. Find one that says primer on it. Read the label to make sure that it adheres to plastic. Buy that.

Look at how @TalizvarMade is talking about it. While those are good tips, it is uclear if he is talking about a primer or just paint. (I would asume the last since that is what he is leading with, but I am not sure.)

@Murphy1979Made I can get Krylon, but not Rustoleum, cheaper then GW primer in Norway. Why would I need to run this experiment? It just sounds exspesive. And are any of them actially primers? And do they clog up the details on the models?

@Lance845 so GW spray is not on that list then. But what spray should I buy? Not everything is available in Norway. Also, I have yet to be explained why the GW one does not work just fine.

Because the gw one is paint.