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Per older canon sources, the reason why the Ecclesiarchy's armies are female is to exploit a loophole in the Decree Passive: they are not allowed to keep "men under arms", so they have women instead.

However, the current Adepta Sororitas codex does not directly mention that loophole, unless I missed something. See page 11:

At the behest of the other High Lords of Terra, a great number of changes to the Adeptus Ministorum were then implemented, the most radical of which was the Decree Passive. By this edict, the Ecclesiarchy was ordered to relinquish control of its standing military forces, giving over the bulk of its armies to the Astra Militarum and its fleets to the Imperial Navy. But Sebastian Thor insisted that the Daughters of the Emperor were unaffected by this Decree. He knew that military might was needed to defend the faith, and so the Daughters were incorporated fully into the Ministorum and renamed the Adepta Sororitas.

If there was an opportunity in the codex to mention the "men under arms" clause, this was it. It's like some people at GW thought: "No, this fluff element was too silly, we'll just skirt around it and hope nobody notices."

.

Well, I mean, it's not one of their strongest pieces of fluff anyway.

Loopholes are rarely unintentional. This may explain the reason behind the law, but the way it was implemented would be the whole "no men under arms" decree.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I mean, it's not one of their strongest pieces of fluff anyway.

Maybe not, but I feel it showcases the Kafkaesque nature of the Imperium.

I would be disappointed, I felt like that was a good tidbit for the setting to have.

I don't see it removed, it just doesn't explain why Thor said it doesn't apply to them

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I mean, it's not one of their strongest pieces of fluff anyway.

otoh seeing how many silly loopholes are in real world realistic. Not like loopholes and playing with words doesn't happen in real life

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I mean, it's not one of their strongest pieces of fluff anyway.

Bureaucratic loopholes are one of the best parts of Imperial fluff.

It sort of worked when the fluff portrayed the High Lords as a bunch of senile old men who probably didn't understand that women could even be soldiers; and the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy as being almost 100% male. It makes rather less sense now that numerous BL novels have established both the Imperial military and the High Lords as having always been essentially equal-opportunity employers (and that the High Lords are not usually a bunch of senile idiots, regardless of gender).

The idea that there would be ambiguity about the term "men under arms" just isn't tenable nowadays. Even the excuse that it reflects "archaic phrasing" doesn't work, since the HH books make clear the Imperial military has always had lots of women "under arms". GW/BL could have said that women only started joining the Navy and Guard in significant numbers after the establishment of the SoB, inspired by their example, but that ship has sailed.

The concept of a powerful military force only existing due to a bureaucratic loophole is a good one, but it has to actually work within the context of the setting as a whole. And the "SoB aren't technically men under arms" one just doesn't anymore.

Oh, are we doing the whole 'retcon by omission' thing again?

Because that's been shown time after time to not be how the background works.

Just because something isn't mentioned in one source, doesn't mean that it no longer exists.

Even so, the layers of obfuscation and confusion kind of fit with the competing narrative points of view that help define 40k background, no?

GW does seem to be moving a little away from the previous level of Ecclesiarchical disarmament. There is now mention of Frateris battleships, and retinues of Crusaders in the new Codex. Although the new Codex mentions the Decree Passive forbidding the standing armies of old, it seems they pretty blatantly evade the spirit of the decree now. Battleships "on loan" from the Imperial Navy, and which never seem to be returned, for example.

This never made sense. If Thor wasnt the same person who made the law and found the loophole. If he or someone else found the loophole and exploited it it would have been so much better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It sort of worked when the fluff portrayed the High Lords as a bunch of senile old men who probably didn't understand that women could even be soldiers; and the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy as being almost 100% male. It makes rather less sense now that numerous BL novels have established both the Imperial military and the High Lords as having always been essentially equal-opportunity employers (and that the High Lords are not usually a bunch of senile idiots, regardless of gender).

The idea that there would be ambiguity about the term "men under arms" just isn't tenable nowadays. Even the excuse that it reflects "archaic phrasing" doesn't work, since the HH books make clear the Imperial military has always had lots of women "under arms". GW/BL could have said that women only started joining the Navy and Guard in significant numbers after the establishment of the SoB, inspired by their example, but that ship has sailed.

The concept of a powerful military force only existing due to a bureaucratic loophole is a good one, but it has to actually work within the context of the setting as a whole. And the "SoB aren't technically men under arms" one just doesn't anymore.

The HH happened 10k years ago. Those are litteral ancient times for modern Terrans

 Duskweaver wrote:
It sort of worked when the fluff portrayed the High Lords as a bunch of senile old men who probably didn't understand that women could even be soldiers; and the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy as being almost 100% male. It makes rather less sense now that numerous BL novels have established both the Imperial military and the High Lords as having always been essentially equal-opportunity employers (and that the High Lords are not usually a bunch of senile idiots, regardless of gender).

You/re glossing over the fact that the background material is the accumulation of twenty five years of material, and most of the material in Black Library "establishing" the Imperial military and the High Lords as having always been essentially equal-opportunity employers is more recently written than the original Sisters of Battle codex. :-/

Once upon a time in the real world, "the decree says 'men at arms', but these are all women' was a plausible thing to put in the setting.

Now, it would be more plausible if the argument were based on degrees of militarization. Sort of how Japan after WWII was allowed to have a "self-defense force". "Oh, these aren't men-at-arms. They're merely volunteers with paramilitary training. They just showed up and we couldn't get rid of them if we tried" or something. Sort of like the mess in the U.S. concerning what the word "militia" means over the years.

I mean, there's still the bit in the background where the Sisters just sort of showed up, said "We want to follow you", right? If that was a sufficiently independent organization (the sort of independent organization likely to split into different schools of thought in the future), that wouldn't necessarily qualify as 'men-at-arms'. Not because of the whole 'they're all women' thing, but because they're not being run and funded directly enough.

GW not taking the space in the codex to detail the entire "men under arms" thing doesn't mean it was written out. They still mention the important parts, the Degree Passive exist and it has been held to not apply to the Sisters of Battle. Details provided elsewhere.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Per older canon sources, the reason why the Ecclesiarchy's armies are female is to exploit a loophole in the Decree Passive: they are not allowed to keep "men under arms", so they have women instead.

However, the current Adepta Sororitas codex does not directly mention that loophole, unless I missed something. See page 11:

At the behest of the other High Lords of Terra, a great number of changes to the Adeptus Ministorum were then implemented, the most radical of which was the Decree Passive. By this edict, the Ecclesiarchy was ordered to relinquish control of its standing military forces, giving over the bulk of its armies to the Astra Militarum and its fleets to the Imperial Navy. But Sebastian Thor insisted that the Daughters of the Emperor were unaffected by this Decree. He knew that military might was needed to defend the faith, and so the Daughters were incorporated fully into the Ministorum and renamed the Adepta Sororitas.

If there was an opportunity in the codex to mention the "men under arms" clause, this was it. It's like some people at GW thought: "No, this fluff element was too silly, we'll just skirt around it and hope nobody notices."

.

As far as I know, the Degree Passive is still in force. Just not as zealously enforced as in times past. For example, the oh-so-glorious Departmento Munitorum is more than happy to rubber stamp a group of Frateris Militia into an Astra Militarum regiment on a temporary basis if the Ecclesiarchy asks nicely. The Inquisition watches closely, but doesn't take action unless a Ministorum official starts getting too big for their britches.

It should be noted that the Decree Passive doesn't completely forbid the Adeptus Ministorum from having an armed force. Just not a standing army (permanent armed force of "men under arms"). Hence, the existence of the Frateris Militia.

The Adepta Sororitas Orders Militant are also not entirely the Ecclesiarchy's. They are also the Chamber Militant of the Order Hereticus, and will move against Ministorum personnel and facilities on the orders of the Inquisition. Which, in my mind, puts the Sisters in the same "part time help" category as the Crusader Orders. They serve the security needs of the Ecclesiarchy when the Frateris Militia wouldn't be enough to do the job alone, until the Inquisition says otherwise (the fact that the Church funds the Sororitas, notwithstanding).

The Adepta Sororitas Orders Militant are also not entirely the Ecclesiarchy's. They are also the Chamber Militant of the Order Hereticus, and will move against Ministorum personnel and facilities on the orders of the Inquisition. Which, in my mind, puts the Sisters in the same "part time help" category as the Crusader Orders.

that hasn't been the case for some time, the latest codex notes they are responsable for "internal secruity" and as such often work along side the order hereiticis but do not answer to them. GW's been moving away from the "these guys answer totally to the inqusition" for awhile now. (since at LEAST early 7th edition)

 Trickstick wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I mean, it's not one of their strongest pieces of fluff anyway.

Bureaucratic loopholes are one of the best parts of Imperial fluff.

Agreed. The intent is clearly that the writer was some stuffed shirt attempting to sound official and authoritative, writing in ye olde high gothik which uses a specific archaic term. It's a bureaucratic oversight, not a sexist lack of imagination- the Daughters of the Emperor had fought the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Black Templars, along with the Mechanicus to a standstill. On Holy Terra. Everyone was well aware that girls can play sports.

Sebastian 'The one reasonable man in the Ecclesiarchy' Thor being a cheeky scamp who notices 'ain't no rule that says a dog can't play basketball' is fun and tells you all you need to know about the Imperium.

 solkan wrote:
You/re glossing over the fact that the background material is the accumulation of twenty five years of material, and most of the material in Black Library "establishing" the Imperial military and the High Lords as having always been essentially equal-opportunity employers is more recently written than the original Sisters of Battle codex. :-/ Once upon a time in the real world, "the decree says 'men at arms', but these are all women' was a plausible thing to put in the setting.

I'm not glossing over anything. I specifically said that it sort of made sense when it was first written, but now doesn't really any more, due to other stuff that was written since then. You're just re-stating the same point I was making.

except it was never supposed to be all that sensable, thats kiiinda the point of the IoM

 =Angel= wrote:
Sebastian 'The one reasonable man in the Ecclesiarchy' Thor being a cheeky scamp who notices 'ain't no rule that says a dog can't play basketball' is fun and tells you all you need to know about the Imperium.

A bit like Lord Byron - oh, I can't bring a pet dog to University? Hmm, the rules don't mention tame bears...

Spetulhu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Sebastian 'The one reasonable man in the Ecclesiarchy' Thor being a cheeky scamp who notices 'ain't no rule that says a dog can't play basketball' is fun and tells you all you need to know about the Imperium.

A bit like Lord Byron - oh, I can't bring a pet dog to University? Hmm, the rules don't mention tame bears...

A bit like US Congress blocking efforts to raise the amount of tomato paste/veg required for pizza to qualify as a 'vegetable portion'.
Which is itself a result of an 1800's decision that tomatoes 'count as' vegetables for trade- all so they could continue to tax them.

Our Martyred Lady audio drama has the Men under Arms loophole mentioned.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Our-Martyred-Lady-Audiobook/1780308507?ref=a_pd_Celest_c5_adblp13nvrPi_1_2&pf_rd_p=10be84a5-3a35-458a-8529-0c4e5c3dcd9c&pf_rd_r=YSHCAFJGDPX52HM18YB9

Though I forget if it has been removed by the end.

The "no men under arms" loophole was basically an urban legend. It's cool, and it's thematic, and it does paint a picture for the nightmare bureaucracy, but... we've gotten an absolute ton of background since that was written. The thing about legends is that the more you know, the less they make sense.

Even in real life, stories of people pulling off stunts with loopholes really come down to nobody being willing to call out the person, not that the loophole has to be respected. I think that the old fluff probably oversold how effective the loophole was.

 Polonius wrote:
Even in real life, stories of people pulling off stunts with loopholes really come down to nobody being willing to call out the person

And almost literally no one with any amount of authority was willing to call out Sebastian Thor at the time. He even had some pretty close Space Marine allies!

 Melissia wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Even in real life, stories of people pulling off stunts with loopholes really come down to nobody being willing to call out the person

And almost literally no one with any amount of authority was willing to call out Sebastian Thor at the time. He even had some pretty close Space Marine allies!

I always assumed it was the Custodes and the implicit threat that you can play ball or have a very close and very long look at the various prison cells/execution chambers that only Custodes know about.

pm713 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Even in real life, stories of people pulling off stunts with loopholes really come down to nobody being willing to call out the person

And almost literally no one with any amount of authority was willing to call out Sebastian Thor at the time. He even had some pretty close Space Marine allies!

I always assumed it was the Custodes and the implicit threat that you can play ball or have a very close and very long look at the various prison cells/execution chambers that only Custodes know about.

It was probably a combination.

Sebastian Thor was an honest-to-Emperor hero, who helped save the Imperium from a brutal dictator the likes of which the Imperium hasn't known since. He earned the respect of everyone from the Guard to (what would become) the Sisters to the Marines to the Custodes to everything else in the Imperium, and was presumed-- probably correctly-- to have the Emperor's blessing in how he set about the rules for how the Ecclesiarchy would act for the forseeable future.

Let's make it clear-- the time of Goge Vandire's rule was one of the worst in all of recorded Imperial history. And Sebastian Thor was by all accounts a decent man who led the efforts to put an end to this.

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Even in real life, stories of people pulling off stunts with loopholes really come down to nobody being willing to call out the person

And almost literally no one with any amount of authority was willing to call out Sebastian Thor at the time. He even had some pretty close Space Marine allies!

I always assumed it was the Custodes and the implicit threat that you can play ball or have a very close and very long look at the various prison cells/execution chambers that only Custodes know about.

It was probably a combination.

Sebastian Thor was an honest-to-Emperor hero, who helped save the Imperium from a brutal dictator the likes of which the Imperium hasn't known since. He earned the respect of everyone from the Guard to (what would become) the Sisters to the Marines to the Custodes to everything else in the Imperium, and was presumed-- probably correctly-- to have the Emperor's blessing in how he set about the rules for how the Ecclesiarchy would act for the forseeable future.

Let's make it clear-- the time of Goge Vandire's rule was one of the worst in all of recorded Imperial history. And Sebastian Thor was by all accounts a decent man who led the efforts to put an end to this.

It might just be me but it's slightly weird that someone in the Imperium was actually a decent person.

Don't forget that "presumed to have The Emperor's blessing" could also be written as "had a massive warp storm wipe out the entire enemy fleet, which still exists 5000 years later".

People would be pretty quick to get on his side.

pm713 wrote:
It might just be me but it's slightly weird that someone in the Imperium was actually a decent person.

That decent people exist in 40k isn't strange.

What's strange is them being in positions of authority. And that's what made Thor exceptional, and why the time where he influenced politics after Vandire's reign was over was considered one of the best times in the millennia since the Emperor was enthroned. Then, naturally, the Imperium gradually slipped back down and degraded once more. But at least the Adepta Sororitas remained as perhaps his greatest legacy.

The Imperium's lasted for, at this point, over 11.000 years. In order for there to be bad times, there must be good times for those bad times to be compared to.