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Hi Dakka,

As natural humans can reach the size and almost the strength of an Astartes (without Armour).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haf%C3%BE%C3%B3r_J%C3%BAl%C3%ADus_Bj%C3%B6rnsson

tl;dr
Current world strongest man competitor (not even the reigning champ)
Height: 206 cm (6 ft 9 in)
Weight: 180–200 kg (397–441 lb) he is fething huge!

Strongman
Set at competitive meets:

Tire deadlift – 460 kg (1,014 lb) raw with wrist straps. Raw - this means no muscle (compression suits) or joint support.
Deadlift – 474 kg (1,045 lb) Elephant bar, raw with wrist straps (Arnold Strongman Classic 2019, World Record)
Log press – 213 kg (470 lb) (Europe's Strongest Man 2018)
Log carry – [5 steps] 650 kg (1,433 lb)
Keg toss – 7.15 m (23 ft) - 25kgs vertical toss up in the air, with one hand!!!
Keg toss – 8 kegs in 16.35 seconds (World's Strongest Man 2014). Strongman record.
Set in the gym:

Deadlift – 480 kg (1,058 lb) Replica Elephant bar, raw with wrist straps

Powerlifting
Set at competitive meets:

Squat (with wraps) – 440 kg (970 lb)
Bench press – 250 kg (551 lb)
Deadlift – 410 kg (904 lb)
Total - 1,100 kg (2,425 lb)

Set in the gym:

Squat – 440 kg (970 lb) raw
Bench press – 245 kg (540 lb) raw

He can pick up nearly half a metric Tonne and has explosive power, and is just under or the same same height as an Astartes not wearing power armor.
This today's superhuman, and we have 38 millennia to evolve before the Grimdark, my logic dictates we will have even bigger, stronger "Natural humans" by then.

Does anyone think it is possible for a trained natural human (maybe a huge catachan sargent or something) to best an enhanced human in sparring (without power armor) Astartes, Custode, or any other branch of enhanced humanity??
And follow up, any examples of this in the Lore?

Edit: for grammar, and i still suck at that sorry i will have missed stuff.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:
Does anyone think it is possible for a trained natural human (maybe a huge catachan sargent or something) to best an enhanced human in sparring (without power armor) Astartes, Custode, or any other branch of enhanced humanity??
And follow up, any examples of this in the Lore?

I very much doubt it - two fluff examples against I can think of are that Commissar Cain (one of the best duellists in the Guard, and who once beat an Ork Warboss) cannot beat an Apothecary in the Training Cages; and in the Vaults of Terra books an unarmoured Custodes beats multiple fully armed Arbites and Inquistorial Stormtroopers without killing any of them (IIRC).

beast_gts wrote:

I very much doubt it - two fluff examples against I can think of are that Commissar Cain (one of the best duellists in the Guard, and who once beat an Ork Warboss) cannot beat an Apothecary in the Training Cages; and in the Vaults of Terra books an unarmoured Custodes beats multiple fully armed Arbites and Inquistorial Stormtroopers without killing any of them (IIRC).

Are of those examples of regular sized humans? or were they as big as the strongman above?

What if the natural human was as big as the astartes, (like the above) and had the training is it possible to win? or simply cannot overcome the internal modifications of Astartes.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

I very much doubt it - two fluff examples against I can think of are that Commissar Cain (one of the best duellists in the Guard, and who once beat an Ork Warboss) cannot beat an Apothecary in the Training Cages; and in the Vaults of Terra books an unarmoured Custodes beats multiple fully armed Arbites and Inquistorial Stormtroopers without killing any of them (IIRC).

Are of those examples of regular sized humans? or were they as big as the strongman above?

What if the natural human was as big as the astartes, (like the above) and had the training is it possible to win? or simply cannot overcome the internal modifications of Astartes.

In sparring it's possiable. sparring being a friendly match done to points, which would engate the large advantages an astartes would have. in a real life battle however the astartes' implants would give him a pretty decisive edge, two hearts, a third lung, a fused rib cage. and more, all of these things would make the Marine massivly more durable and thus more likely to win. basicly it'd be like the marine would have more "hit points" then a unaugmented human.

Please keep in mind the concept of statistical variation in populations, and the phenomenon of overlapping distributions in populations.

Men, on average, are taller than women. There exist women who are taller than the average man, or even taller than most men. For instance, Gwendoline Christie is 6'3". In spite of her existence, the statement "men are taller than women" is still considered true, because it's meant 'on average'.

So it's not a matter of "Could an exceptional natural human best an enhanced human?" but "How exceptional would they have to be?"

in real conbat you don't even need to be all that exceptional, you just need to get lucky. space marine or not, if you cleve through the head, they're proably dead. just for example.

First, you can't really predict the outcome of a fight based purely on strength or skill, because there's always "luck" involved. Luck in this case is just the fact that you can't tell in advance what someone is going to do (unless you're a psyker, I guess), so you have to take some chances. Sometimes, you just make the wrong decision and lose because of it.

Now, the strongest normal guy might be as strong as an astartes, but space marines are more than just strong. They're supposed to have superhuman reflexes, incredible speed for someone their size and enough endurance to keep fighting for hours without a break. So, maybe the strongest man can beat most astartes at weightlifting and maybe the fastest man can beat most astartes in a 100m dash, but no one is going to beat an astartes at both.

In a fair fight, it would be tough (though there's also a luck factor, as some have pointed out). However, I could imagine a human besting a Space Marine in combat via ingenuity, dirty tricks, and the use of concealed or improvised weapons. Marines are the peak of human physical ability, but they are not infallible, and they cannot always anticipate what their opponent will do next. I think they are also very likely to underestimate an unaugmented human opponent.

A "street rat" type of character would probably stand a better chance against a Space Marine than a skilled, honorable duelist.

The strong man example is a an example of a strong individual but not an example of a strong big fighter. Deadlifting half a tonne doesn't help you in a fight all that much..

So the next best thing to look at in my opinion is to look at the Mike Tyson, Lenox Lewises, stipei Miocic', Vitali klitchkos and Brock Lesnars of the future at their peak.

Bear in mind you an astrates would keep trainig, leanring and improving their combat skills for centuries potentially. Whereas a normal human has about 25 Years tops (Assume you start fighting at 10 years old and hit your peak at 35).

So the next question becomes, how much force do you need to generate in order to knock out an astrates if you hit them right on the button?

Id think if a Francis Inganu went for broke and just threw huge bombs and managed to hit an Astrates on the button with a "lucky" punch theres a high chance he'd go down.
I don't think a normal human could depend on any type of tactics, try to outlast him with cardio or try to overhwlem him with a superior technique. WHat we know about physiology and combat sport would sugest this is just not happening.

However, if you had someone like a Lomachenko(who is essentialy psychic when it comes to boxing... Look him up if you don't believe me) in the body of a much bigger athlete in the form of Francis Inganu? Ohh boy... I could see being able to be technicaly superior because there is just no substitute for raw talent in the outliers of the world.

But in terms of physical output, cardio, etc. which are veriables when it comes to hand to hand combat, I believe there is just no chance for a conventional match to go in the form of a human outside of the fringe Lomachenko-inganu hybrid or a very lucky punch in the form of the astrates tripping while trying to backstep and getting clipped.

Outside of an absolute phenome in the form of a Lomachenko brain in a francis inganu body with hand speed to match, then you have a a punchers chance IF an astartes can be knocked out with the force a human can generate and he makes a mistake or there is a pebble he could trip on etc.

Intersting topic....

I just have a feeling that even our best guys today would probably end up breaking their hands on just about any bone structure of the average Astartes.

It's absolutely possible for a natural human to best an enhanced human, depending on the circumstances.

If we're talking a straight up cage fight between a Space Marine or Ogryn against an exceptional "normal" human however? Probably not in any statistically meaningful way, though there's always space for luck and chance to do its thing. Same way it's possible to win a cage match against an irate Silverback Gorilla, but probably not enough of one that anyone would want to put money on it.

I think if we're trying to do this with the limitation of it being non-lethal (and seemingly non-maiming), you decrease the chance of the smaller and less capable opponent succeeding by orders of magnitude, as many routes to victory over the larger opponent would tend to be things that are immediately lethal and/or permanently crippling, the tool set of the larger fighter is effectively larger. If lethal/crippling options are available, the relative difference in the toolsets available to the combatants is smaller and routes to victory that don't involve raw physical might are more available, opening options for the "normal" human combatant. I don't think the situation is ever great for the normal human, but the odds improve if there's lethal intent involved.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's absolutely possible for a natural human to best an enhanced human, depending on the circumstances.

If we're talking a straight up cage fight between a Space Marine or Ogryn against an exceptional "normal" human however? Probably not in any statistically meaningful way, though there's always space for luck and chance to do its thing. Same way it's possible to win a cage match against an irate Silverback Gorilla, but probably not enough of one that anyone would want to put money on it.

I think if we're trying to do this with the limitation of it being non-lethal (and seemingly non-maiming), you decrease the chance of the smaller and less capable opponent succeeding by orders of magnitude, as many routes to victory over the larger opponent would tend to be things that are immediately lethal and/or permanently crippling, the tool set of the larger fighter is effectively larger. If lethal/crippling options are available, the relative difference in the toolsets available to the combatants is smaller and routes to victory that don't involve raw physical might are more available, opening options for the "normal" human combatant. I don't think the situation is ever great for the normal human, but the odds improve if there's lethal intent involved.

I don't know man. We have examples of heavy weights being able to take absolute bombs and still stand. So its already pretty hard for one of the strongest fighters to knock out equally strong fighter. But trying to drop an astartes with their thicker bones etc. I think that's probably not going to happen now that I think about it.

But... You bring up an interesting point. Could a human beat a gorlilla ? I think not in 100% of the cases.
Could an astartes beat a gorilla barehanded? I think so.

So then we move onto the next one: Could an unarmed human beat a Bear? No fething way 100000% of the times.

But could an Astartes beat a bear? Possible...

This however does not answer the age old question as old as time itself. Who would win a fight between a bear and a gorilla? We shall never know for sure... (unless your name is sheikh and you can afford a coliseum and have no scrupule sor morals....)

As I said, the big thing about Marines is how much more durable they are. what would KILL a normal human is survival (hell might just be an inconveniance for) a marine

Yes, a blade through the brain stem is still going to be fatal, no matter who you are.

People get so carried away with marines. They aren't designed to be stronger and larger than the strongest and biggest humans. People keep assuming that the Absolute worst marine MUST be bigger stronger faster than the absolute best human that could ever exist.

Space marines are also not unkillable. They die by the droves on a daily basis.

The hype around space marines is so old these days.

Hellebore wrote:
Yes, a blade through the brain stem is still going to be fatal, no matter who you are.

People get so carried away with marines. They aren't designed to be stronger and larger than the strongest and biggest humans. People keep assuming that the Absolute worst marine MUST be bigger stronger faster than the absolute best human that could ever exist.

Space marines are also not unkillable. They die by the droves on a daily basis.

The hype around space marines is so old these days.

Did you even read the OP ??
We are discussing a hypothetical scenario of a sparring hand to hand fight... I don't see how having ultra dense bones, two hearts and a third lung etc. is NOT going to help you in a fight when it comes to it... Especially if you have 100+ years to practice every day potentially.

Nobody is saying that a human couldn't kill a marine in the right circumstances.. A well placed 6" of a blade tip can kill most things...

Truth is we don't know what the true capabilities of this enhanced human would be.
But you can fairly say that someone pulled off the couch is not going to win any fights vs a trained professional fighter.. And I think its that kind of night and day difference.

 Argive wrote:

But... You bring up an interesting point. Could a human beat a gorlilla ? I think not in 100% of the cases.
Could an astartes beat a gorilla barehanded? I think so.

So then we move onto the next one: Could an unarmed human beat a Bear? No fething way 100000% of the times.

But could an Astartes beat a bear? Possible...

This however does not answer the age old question as old as time itself. Who would win a fight between a bear and a gorilla? We shall never know for sure... (unless your name is sheikh and you can afford a coliseum and have no scrupule sor morals....)

I'm pretty sure that there is greater than zero percent chance for a human to beat either gorilla or bear in unarmed combat. The best martial artists are probably at least in theory capable of delivering kicks and blows that might kill or incapacitate gorilla and probably even a bear. It might be a tiny chance, but it exists. There are stories of such thing happening, though not verified. There is verified story of man beating a bear to death with a stick. Similarly I believe than a normal human might be able to beat a marine.

However, in unarmed combat the disadvantage for the normal human is massive. It gets much easier when weapons are involved, they're great equalisers. If the normal human and marine have, say, swords, let alone power swords, the unaugmented human has much better chances, as it becomes way easier for them to deliver blows that can injure or kill the marine. Meanwhile the marine benefits from the weapon less; they could already easily kill their opponent with their bare hands.

A human has about no chance to kill a Space Marine in a hand to hand fight. A giant like described above is a poor fighter. "Freak fights", that is a fight in which an extremely large men fight a much smaller one, usually don't go well for the freak precisely because past a certain size and weight, human lose a significant amount of speed and more importantly endurance. The massive human presented above is probably as strong as a Space Marine, but a Space Marine is significantly quicker on his feet and, especially, much more endurant. A Space Marine fights and moves like a 160 pound MMA fighter while the colossus is limited by his sheer mass and his out of ordinary body type. The colossus best chance is to keep it to wrestling where he is more adapted to fight, but a Space Marine isn't disadvantaged in that domain and will dominate in a striking fight. If you want to see a human kill a Space Marine on one vs one, include weapons and then you will have more chances to see such a thing.

Space Marines can kill anything. A normal human is helpless against one, obviously. Space Marines are the best.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:
Hi Dakka,

As natural humans can reach the size and almost the strength of an Astartes (without Armour).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haf%C3%BE%C3%B3r_J%C3%BAl%C3%ADus_Bj%C3%B6rnsson

tl;dr
Current world strongest man competitor (not even the reigning champ)
Height: 206 cm (6 ft 9 in)
Weight: 180–200 kg (397–441 lb) he is fething huge!

Spoiler:

Strongman
Set at competitive meets:

Tire deadlift – 460 kg (1,014 lb) raw with wrist straps. Raw - this means no muscle (compression suits) or joint support.
Deadlift – 474 kg (1,045 lb) Elephant bar, raw with wrist straps (Arnold Strongman Classic 2019, World Record)
Log press – 213 kg (470 lb) (Europe's Strongest Man 2018)
Log carry – [5 steps] 650 kg (1,433 lb)
Keg toss – 7.15 m (23 ft) - 25kgs vertical toss up in the air, with one hand!!!
Keg toss – 8 kegs in 16.35 seconds (World's Strongest Man 2014). Strongman record.
Set in the gym:

Deadlift – 480 kg (1,058 lb) Replica Elephant bar, raw with wrist straps

Powerlifting
Set at competitive meets:

Squat (with wraps) – 440 kg (970 lb)
Bench press – 250 kg (551 lb)
Deadlift – 410 kg (904 lb)
Total - 1,100 kg (2,425 lb)

Set in the gym:

Squat – 440 kg (970 lb) raw
Bench press – 245 kg (540 lb) raw

He can pick up nearly half a metric Tonne and has explosive power, and is just under or the same same height as an Astartes not wearing power armor.
This today's superhuman, and we have 38 millennia to evolve before the Grimdark, my logic dictates we will have even bigger, stronger "Natural humans" by then.

Does anyone think it is possible for a trained natural human (maybe a huge catachan sargent or something) to best an enhanced human in sparring (without power armor) Astartes, Custode, or any other branch of enhanced humanity??
And follow up, any examples of this in the Lore?

Edit: for grammar, and i still suck at that sorry i will have missed stuff.

I'm 6'8" & 250lbs. Couldnt imagine another 200lbs of mass to my gargantuan frame.

No matter how badass a human is either strength or skill-wise, it is basically impossible to barehanded stop a bear. I'm not even talking about a Kodiak(which is how I'd describe an Astartes, insanely strong/durable), a 2-300lb Blackbear is not something I would feth with....unarmed. Humans have basically no natural tools(besides the use of weapons) to deal with how flat out resilient a bear is. their hide is thick, have a layer of fat 100x thicker then have muscle well before you can reach anything vital.

 Da Boss wrote:
Space Marines can kill anything. A normal human is helpless against one, obviously. Space Marines are the best.

ohh can the passive agressiveness. we're talking A Space Marine vs a unmodified human. I don't think any reasonable individual would sat noting a space marine holds fairly massive advantages as being anything but factual

Nothing passive aggressive about it! I just read the background and have been convinced by peoples arguments here.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:


As natural humans can reach the size and almost the strength of an Astartes (without Armour).

How do you know?

 Da Boss wrote:
Nothing passive aggressive about it! I just read the background and have been convinced by peoples arguments here.

fair eneugh, and I apologize if so, it just came off that way after so many snide comments about marines. I'd not say Marines can kill everything, but they have such a massive gulf between humans that it really wouldn't be a contest. which just makes the normal humans in the lore who manage to acheive it all the more bad ass

I think the lore has changed over the years. When I started, it was not like this, but given the modern novels and background material in books, I think this is the game as presented now.

No

No matter how skilled the non enhanced human is things like endurance size stamina and strength matter

There is a reason that weight classes exist in every martial art.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think the lore has changed over the years. When I started, it was not like this, but given the modern novels and background material in books, I think this is the game as presented now.

unless you started back in rogue trader days when marines where just criminals locked in suits of armor, then nothing has changed. Marines have always been depicted with having these enhancements. when one looks at whats written about Marines, right in the CORE fluff, in terms of how they are enhanced it's clear they have a MASSIVE advantage over normal baseline humans. you may not have noticed it because +1s and +1t doesn't seem like much, but the practicalality is that a marine is so much more durable then a human it'd be almost impossiable to win a fist fight agaisnt a marine.

thing is, this "baseline humans are kinda screwed" applies to everyone. Eldar are much much faster then humans, Orks are stronger and tougher, etc

a normal baseline human in 40k is the weakest of the weak pretty much

godking wrote:
No

No matter how skilled the non enhanced human is things like endurance size stamina and strength matter

There is a reason that weight classes exist in every martial art.

To make it fair. But it is not impossible for a lower weight class fighter to beat the heavier one.

First, he’s a good 6 inches shorter than the most conservative estimates of SM height and has 2/3rds the BMI. We don’t have a good metric of raw SM strength, but he is probably well below it. Keep in mind that the strength stat is 40k is more exponential than linear and encompasses a very large range (SM are on the high end of S4 while catachans are on the low end, you have to round off somewhere).

The more interesting part is the possibility/certainly of creating SM tier people before M29. I would imagine that there was a time when most all humans were augmented to near SM levels during the DAoT. But during the age of strife, the sheer caloric requirements to keep up the level of performance mean such argumentations were heavily selected against. After all, they are still bound to all the inefficiencies of biological processes.

Some augmentations stayed around, of course, and there humans who continue to possess them by virtue of ancestry. That and a bit of luck is why we occasionally see normal humans preforming super human feats, like beating a warboss in melee or something.

The real strength of the emperors gene craft is not his ability to make strong men, but to make men whose existence seems to break what is physically possible. The primarchs are the best example, they can live off sand and breath in the void of space, they do the impossible. The space marines and custodes aren’t perpetual motion machines, but they stretch the bounds of what is humanly possible. For example, while Bjornsson eats 6kg of food per day, SM only eat once a week (as per Apocalypse, and I doubt they eat the weight of an entire man at once), and are even capable of surviving on their own recycled waste for extended periods of time. Their existence defied reality, no matter how strong they are.

https://www.mensjournal.com/food-drink/thor-bjornsson-diet-what-mountain-eats-his-strongman-training

 Eipi10 wrote:
The more interesting part is the possibility/certainly of creating SM tier people before M29. I would imagine that there was a time when most all humans were augmented to near SM levels during the DAoT. But during the age of strife, the sheer caloric requirements to keep up the level of performance mean such argumentations were heavily selected against. After all, they are still bound to all the inefficiencies of biological processes.

Some augmentations stayed around, of course, and there humans who continue to possess them by virtue of ancestry. That and a bit of luck is why we occasionally see normal humans preforming super human feats, like beating a warboss in melee or something.

No. It's just that exceptionally skilled or lucky normal human can beat foes that are physically superior to them.

I really don't understand how such a simple concept is so hard to grasp. That one fighter is superior doesn't mean that they're invincible. We have all played the game, the dice give weird results sometimes; and that applies to the real life too!

I keep thinking about a fiction podcast that I had a story a few years ago. In it, an outmatched fighter won against a clearly superior opponent by doing the unthinkable: breaking one of their bones (I don't remember the details, I don't think they intentionally got their leg broken, it just ended up that way) and then ramming the broken bone into their opponent's eye.

Not even Space Marines have armored eye balls.