Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just read that these brushes are made from mink hair. For a long time mink production has been considered unethical and I suppose this might be a flat no for vegans. Are there any alternatives that are as good?

Does this bother anyone? Is the hair simply being brushed off happy minks?

From the internet.


These weasels are hunted sustainably every spring under CITES guidelines across Siberia and Manchuria

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/why-kolinsky-sable-brushes-are-so-expensive-england-art-painting-2019-12

If they are humanely killed, then it doesn't really bother me one iota whether it's ethical.

And if they're not humanely killed.... well I might not agree with it, but I wont be losing sleep over it.

to answer your question, alternatives are not as good. synthetic brushes hook, and eventually split, whereas sable brushes will last a lot longer. as to the ethics, I'm really not that informed on it, but I imagine it cant be that big an issue or peta would be all over it instead of trying to stop GW having wolf pelts on their models.

PETA is like Autism Speaks or that one breast cancer foundation that spent most of its budget on bonuses. They're not a good measuring stick for how ethical something is. In the end, an animal dies not to sustain anyone, but to provide fur for painting toy soldiers, it's up to you how you view it.

 Flinty wrote:
From the internet.


These weasels are hunted sustainably every spring under CITES guidelines across Siberia and Manchuria

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/why-kolinsky-sable-brushes-are-so-expensive-england-art-painting-2019-12

I’m a meat eater so I’m not a giant the use of animals to make things but I am concerned with animal suffering up to the point they are used for food etc, and realise the hypocrisy. However it’s nice to know that some companies making brushes are putting ethical thinking into their supply chain so thanks for the link.

just watch Werner Herzogs, Happy People: a year in the Taiga. He follows a sable hunter for one full year. The subject of the documentary hunts sustain-ably, taking into consideration mating season, trap layout's, and numbers he hunts for etc..., he mentions there are many who do not care about the rules and side step them. So to answer your question, based on what an actual sable trapper says, No. And i love Russia and love Russian people, but it's not known for being the most law abiding or friendly place on earth, especially to animals. Look at what they do to bears, their national symbol. I would take the information presented in the video link above with a very large grain of salt.

but then again as a previous poster from Poland mentioned. We are discussing whether the killing of an animal, so you can paint toy soldiers, is ethical. I would imagine only you can answer that question.

i Personally wouldn't use one.

 Snrub wrote:
If they are humanely killed, then it doesn't really bother me one iota whether it's ethical.

And if they're not humanely killed.... well I might not agree with it, but I wont be losing sleep over it.

You get that having them humanely killed is your criterion for whether this is ethical, right?

I'll chime in my pro-synthetic here again. Kolinsky's are top tier brushes in the market, and it is a waste of brush to use them for acrylic paints IMO. Kolinsky's will only last if you use them for water color only.

By nature, acrylic paints are permanent unlike water color and oil paints. Whatever you do, no brush can be cleaned 100%. The solvents used to get acrylic gunks are harsh enough the damage the bristles.

In the long run, cheap, disposable synthetic brushes will run you the same amount, if not less, money compared to a full kolinsky set. And it doesn't kill any animal.

I can get about 20 round 00 synthetics for a price of W&N kolinsky round 00. And each brush lasts me a week of heavy painting and 3-4 months for moderate use.

Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Minks are kind of similar to ferrets. A ferret climbed into my daughter's crib when she was a baby, chewed on her scalp for a little bit before I could get to her. There was a lot of blood and a lot of stitches were required.

If you want to talk about ethics, remember minks are part of nature. Nature wants to destroy you, it's vicious, lethal and unyielding. The fact you live in a time and place that has allowed you to forget this fact is testament to the efforts of stronger people who came before you.

I've never understood the logic of saying it's unethical to hunt something that would casually end your life or the lives of people you care about. That seems to be the opposite of right and wrong, or good and evil. Seems more like a failure to protect the people around you, a substitution of intellectual purity for common sense.

Thank you for letting me know about Kolinsky. Glad to know they are performing this service, I will be sure to order some and support the company.

I'll take it one step further...

If you have the capacity and time to worry about the ethical dilemma behind how your paint brushes are created - paint brushes you use in a hobby for painting toy soldiers; take a step back and appreciate how incredibly superb your life is. Your life is so good, easy, and wonderful...you can waste time spending it on worrying about something so astronomically trivial. Appreciate it while you can, because you're tremendously lucky.

PS: This is in no way regarding Covid-19, etc. It's simply a commentary on how fortunate many of us are to live in a first world country with such a superb life. There are real problems, issues, and dangers in the world...your time is better spent worrying or confronting those.

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Don't take it personally...but maybe don't dole out advice to someone who is on an entirely different level of painting than the rest of us? I've seen numerous "top tier" level painters say the exact same thing. Mechanically and physically a synthetic brush is different than a sable brush and will produce a different result.

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Sure they can - the whole "a bad workman blames his tools" is one of those things that people say and sounds sort of wise, but when you actually pick it apart you find out its utter rubbish.

That's why its advice normally said to people getting started in something because at that stage the tools (even basic ones) have potential greater than the users current skill level, but lower than their potential skill level. So encouraging them to "blame" themselves as the source of weakness is designed as a motivator to encourage them to work at self improvement until such time as their actual skill level increases.


Tools can fail or not be suitable for a specific job; its also pretty common that the more skilled you become, the more picky you can become in terms of what tool works for a specific result. Furthermore the standards that you have get stricter and tighter. A failure for a master might be a really great job for a beginner.

 Elbows wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Don't take it personally...but maybe don't dole out advice to someone who is on an entirely different level of painting than the rest of us? I've seen numerous "top tier" level painters say the exact same thing. Mechanically and physically a synthetic brush is different than a sable brush and will produce a different result.

This.

If you want to win a race, you drive a race car. If you want to get to work, you drive a sedan. Switching the two and expecting the same results leads to disappointment.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Sure they can - the whole "a bad workman blames his tools" is one of those things that people say and sounds sort of wise, but when you actually pick it apart you find out its utter rubbish.

That's why its advice normally said to people getting started in something because at that stage the tools (even basic ones) have potential greater than the users current skill level, but lower than their potential skill level. So encouraging them to "blame" themselves as the source of weakness is designed as a motivator to encourage them to work at self improvement until such time as their actual skill level increases.


Tools can fail or not be suitable for a specific job; its also pretty common that the more skilled you become, the more picky you can become in terms of what tool works for a specific result. Furthermore the standards that you have get stricter and tighter. A failure for a master might be a really great job for a beginner.

That said... what is the best brand of Kolinsky sable?

I've been buying W&N for years, you never really lose the point but the bristles do vanish under heavy usage.

I bought a set of D'Artsians, thinking they were pure sable, turns out they are synthetic. Knew it as soon as I dipped it in water, the bristles bunch up in a distinctive way.

da Vinici's seem like overkill. Could use some advice.

That said... what is the best brand of Kolinsky sable?

I've been buying W&N for years, you never really lose the point but the bristles do vanish under heavy usage.

I bought a set of D'Artsians, thinking they were pure sable, turns out they are synthetic. Knew it as soon as I dipped it in water, the bristles bunch up in a distinctive way.

da Vinici's seem like overkill. Could use some advice.

I haven't tried too many brands, as I was too cheap to decide to cash out for a propper brush for a long time. So far I tried out rosemary and co, winsor and newton and da vinci. The da vinci was worse than the other 2 but much cheaper where I live. I think the rosemary was the best, but I didn't take propper care of it so it didn't last very long.

I've heard nothing but good things about Rosemary & Co...as a kind of "budget" kolinsky sable...perhaps best suited to people who may not get the very most out of a brush. Also, with VAT excluded they're extremely reasonably priced for US customers - been meaning to put in a big order sometime, just haven't gotten around to it (have a couple of NIB brushes I need to break first).

are they fair chase, then I have absolutely no problem with them. If they are trapped, then anyone using them is considered to approve of one of the worst ways to die.

A real hunter/conservationist only uses fair chase, if you hunt something where the hunt is basically canned...go die in a fire, or better yet scale up a sable trap and use it on yourself.

What do they do with the rest if the carcass when the pelt is removed? waste it, most likely, just like the scene from Dances With Wolves where they come upon a herd of bison that had been decimated for their skins.

The pro arte sables are decent, and fairly cost efficient. I've been using a 3/0 sable from them since before Christmas and it's only just started to show its age (that's painting for about 2 hours daily) as long as you get some brush soap they will last a long time.

 skchsan wrote:

I can get about 20 round 00 synthetics for a price of W&N kolinsky round 00. And each brush lasts me a week of heavy painting and 3-4 months for moderate use.

I have a sable detail brush that I've been using since 2012...

 Elbows wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Don't take it personally...but maybe don't dole out advice to someone who is on an entirely different level of painting than the rest of us? I've seen numerous "top tier" level painters say the exact same thing. Mechanically and physically a synthetic brush is different than a sable brush and will produce a different result.

Perhaps I need to elaborate my point - I disagree with the statement "such and such cannot be done without a kolinsky sable" or "you require a kolinsky sable brush to achieve higher level of painting skills". Kolinsky sable is not a gatekeeper which one needs in order to break his/her painting skill ceiling - that's just nonsense.

There's no technique that says 'kolinsky sbale brush required'. As long as you're using the proper type (i.e. caligraphy brush, house paint brush, paint brush, etc) of brush, the brush can be made of any material. you're absolutely not required to buy a sable brush in order to 'level up' to the next level of painting.

Going back to OP, kolinsky sable is a luxury item - meaning, if you have it, great, but it's ok if you don't have it. If you're worried about ethics and it won't do for you, it's completely fine to pass on the sable brush.

Nevermind.

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Ok, here's some planks, some nails and a banana to drive them in, go build me a box.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Power Elephant wrote:
Personaly I simply can't produce results over a ceritan level without a kolinsky brush. Synthetic stuff simply isn't good enough. As far as animal death is concerned I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't effect the overal population negatively.

Don't take it personally, but true craftsmen never blame his tools.

Ok, here's some planks, some nails and a banana to drive them in, go build me a box.

Just to entertain your banter, I would use a piece of plank as a makeshift hammer, and if I only have exact amount of planks to finish the box, i would leave the last few nails to be nailed on by using the ground.

Kolinsky sable is not the only brush you can use to paint. To me, it's disingenuous to say you need sable brush to achieve a certain level of finished product.

No, but it is clear that when a specific outcome is desired, the use of the best tool is optimal.

As your nasty ass, wonky, dented and scratched box would testify.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, but it is clear that when a specific outcome is desired, the use of the best tool is optimal.

Using tools best fit for the job =! using the best tool.

Good tools make a job easier and more efficient. It doesn't mean you can't do the job with less than best tools.

In your banana box example, instead of the banana, if you'd have had a hammer (whether they're made of SST, titanium, diamond or whatnot), then the job can be done.

Can you provide an example of something only a kolinsky sable brush can do that other brushes cannot?

I can offer my opinion, there's little point because a matter of opinion isn't a fact, but for what it's worth.

It's not about function it is about refinement. I feel I paint better with sable brushes because the qualities that make a paint brush better or worse for painting fine detail are superior in sable brushes than artificial. It does not make me a better painter, but it means there's one less thing I'm fighting against to do my best work.

I can offer the objective fact that despite being orders of magnitude more expensive, artists of multiple stripes still continue to pay the cost of sable instead of artificial. Trying to make the argument that somehow they're all wrong and artificial are just as good just isn't credible.

 skchsan wrote:
Perhaps I need to elaborate my point - I disagree with the statement "such and such cannot be done without a kolinsky sable" or "you require a kolinsky sable brush to achieve higher level of painting skills". Kolinsky sable is not a gatekeeper which one needs in order to break his/her painting skill ceiling - that's just nonsense.

There's no technique that says 'kolinsky sbale brush required'. As long as you're using the proper type (i.e. caligraphy brush, house paint brush, paint brush, etc) of brush, the brush can be made of any material. you're absolutely not required to buy a sable brush in order to 'level up' to the next level of painting. .

I think you're arguing a point that nobody was actually making. The point being made is that using better tools is the best way to get better results.

Yes, technically you can argue that you don't need a sable brush because you can achieve Golden Demon-level results using patience, a finger and your own poo, but you're going to find it much easier to get good results if you use the right tools instead. Using a better brush isn't just a matter of it lasting longer or being more expensive. Sable brushes literally perform differently to synthetic brushes. The fact that different bristle materials interact differently with paint is precisely why there are different types of paint brushes.

As usual, there's a middle ground that we should be able to reach here. Of course, technique comes first. Once you have that, then you can work out which brushes are best for you. A sable brush won't make you a master painter, but if you have developed your skills, then quality sable brushes will definitely be something you can try out.