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What happens when the Tyranid consumption of a planet fails? I have had trouble finding much detail. The genestealer cults book does a good job of covering what happens when the 'standard procedure' us derailed, but there is no analogous portion in the tyranid codex. Obviously if the forces on the ground are defeated while the hive fleet remains in orbit it will simply continue to rain down reinforcements, but what if the hive fleet is destroyed while the tyranids are victorious planetside? Are they able to grow new ships? Do they just wait?

Similarly, can a planet where tyrannoforming has begun ever be rid of the infestation? Fluff from the likes of Blood of Baal seems to imply 'purification' is possible but I did not find any detail.

Planets can recover from a partial consumption. Some areas will probably be stripped of animals/minerals/vegetables and be uninhabitable without terraforming again. If it’s not significant on a macro scale, the imperium will not bother and just leave that area desolate. Most of the en mass consumption doesn’t begin until the hive fleet eliminates organized resistance. You wouldn’t start eating your food until you’ve killed it. If there’s still active combat the Tyranids will be more focused on fighting than feeding and the planet could still be saved.

If I’m not mistaken most of the Tyranids control organisms are located in the hive ship. If the Norm Queens are all killed then the Tyranids will lose most of their command and control and will act more like beasts. Unless another hive fleet arrives to “assume direct control” the Tyranids below will become feral and most will die off since a lot of Tyranids combat forms are given digestive tracks because they aren’t designed to live long enough to need one. Lictors, Genestealers, and Powerful Synapse creatures could still function but most of the swarm would be directionless.

There's record of Tyranids that get isolated from the main hive cluster. Old One Eye was such a creature seemingly abandoned on a frozen world.

I think that the first aspect is if any synapse creatures remain and if so how many remain in relation to lesser minded creatures. Ontop of that there's the question of if any breeding units remain alive.


Rippers will mutate into other genes in pools; whilst creatures like the Tervigon can consume and continue to produce Tyranids. However if they've no "mother" type units around then their numbers would, in theory, be finite. So if the ships in orbit are destroyed the ground troops could be purged, given time.


Of course even a loan Genestealer Cult sends out a signal into the black of space. If one Hive Fleet falls then the rest of the Swarm would be aware of it. There'd also be a pull toward that world from the remaining synapse creatures. As a result other Hive Ships might converge on the location to complete the infestation if it was deemed viable. Otherwise they might abandon the Tyranids there to their. They might even send that swarm into hiding; burrowing deep into the world so that they remain dormant until such time as they are needed again.



If the world is being partly consumed then, in theory, the structures and infestation can be burned out. Since the Tyranid form of infestation is designed to destroy, harvest and then leave the world, it would stand to reason that you can burn it out. Of course it might be a hard task even without the ships in orbit.
I would assume that its easier to burn out tyranids like that then it is to burn out ork spores since the orks are specifically intending to infest and remain settled on a planet.




Suffice it to say much will depend on the situation and how far along the infestation is and also on the Tyranids themselves. Norn Queens might remain on ships typically, but I'd wager if the fleet were endangered to the point of destruction but the world below was viable they'd jump down to avoid death.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
What happens when the Tyranid consumption of a planet fails? I have had trouble finding much detail. The genestealer cults book does a good job of covering what happens when the 'standard procedure' us derailed, but there is no analogous portion in the tyranid codex. Obviously if the forces on the ground are defeated while the hive fleet remains in orbit it will simply continue to rain down reinforcements, but what if the hive fleet is destroyed while the tyranids are victorious planetside? Are they able to grow new ships? Do they just wait?

This is from 8th edition:

"THE GHORALA SWARM
In their search, a handful of Leviathan’s scout ships happened across the world of Ghorala, a planet rich in biomass and base to Skarfang, Pirate-Warboss of the dreaded Skar Fleet. This mighty, if ramshackle, armada fell upon the bio-ships before they could react. The Tyranid fleet was all but destroyed under Skarfang’s guns. However, amidst the carnage, a single bio-ship broke through the Ork blockade, pouncing on the planet as a starving man might snatch at a scrap of bread. Alien blood and viscera spilt into the vacuum of space, but in its death throes the bio-ship delivered several broods of Tyranids to the world’s surface. Skarfang grew glum as he realised the battle was over, and he resolved to join the fight on Octaria, as the few Tyranids that had made planetfall were soon stomped out.

THE SWARM SURVIVES
For the first time since the Tyranids had invaded the Octarius Sector, they found themselves embroiled in a war where they were vastly outnumbered by their prey. Skarfang’s horde was mighty, and somehow, the Tyranids sensed that a war of attrition would only end in their demise.
In response, the Ghorala swarm adapted in order to survive. At first, the Tyranids stalked and preyed upon isolated Ork patrols, but the greenskins soon took to scouring the landscape in mobs too large for the fledgling swarm to face. Forced to abandon their guerrilla war, the Tyranids adopted an altogether more cunning strategy and engaged the Orks in the open. The Tyranids attacked without thought of survival, every action aimed at maximising the carnage. Despite the Tyranids’ frenzied attacks, the Orks’ superior numbers gave them the advantage in these brutal skirmishes. Whenever the Tyranids were on the verge of being overrun, they would, in eerie unison, switch from hyperactive slaughter to hasty retreat. The Tyranids lurked in nearby cavern complexes or else burrowed beneath the soil to shelter from pursuant search parties. In the dead of night, synapse creatures re-mustered the scattered swarms to the corpse-choked battlefield. There, the Tyranids fed on Ork cadavers and Tyranid carcasses alike, before returning to digestion pools secreted in the planet’s rocky mesas. Slowly but surely, the Tyranids’ numbers started to grow.

SKARFANG’S FURY
As the Tyranid forces swelled, they changed their methodology yet again, growing more aggressive and seeking out ever larger concentrations of Orks. Though the Tyranids’ reward for their victories was ever-increasing masses of bio-resources, the increased violence soon attracted the bored Skarfang to the surface to join the fray. Wherever Skarfang’s guttural war cries were heard, the Orks attacked with renewed vigour. Even when the Tyranids looked to be on the cusp of victory, the Warboss was able to turn the tide, bellowing blood-curdling threats that encouraged his Boyz to get stuck back in. The Tyranids were being pushed back by the resurgent Ork front; slowly the swarm was being trampled to death. Despite the Tyranids’ earlier success, there was little chance that they could face a united Ork force of such magnitude and survive. Whilst Skarfang lived, the Ghorala swarm was doomed.

DIVIDE AND CONSUME
In response, the Tyranids created Lictors with the express purpose of eliminating the Ork Warboss. Within days, the Lictors had tracked their eminent quarry, but Skarfang’s packs of squig hounds foiled all attempts to get close enough to assassinate their target. Although eternally patient, lying in wait for a chance to strike down their target was a luxury the starving swarm could ill afford. So instead, they created an opportunity.
Following pheromone trails, a scuttling tide of Hormagaunts was thrown at the Ork lines. As the Orks roused to man their rusty barricades, Tyranid Warriors willed the scuttling masses to withdraw. Skarfang’s frustration rose to infuriation as the Tyranids repeated these feints, approaching from different directions to within an arm’s length, then withdrawing before the Orks could retaliate. On the tenth such retreat, Skarfang’s temper could take no more. With a roar, the Warboss ordered his mobs to pursue the retreating swarms. Soon, black smoke was belching skywards as Battlewagons and Trukks rumbled after the swarm. The Tyranids had succeeded in goading the Warboss, separating him from the bulk of his forces and luring him into an ambush.
The Tyranids had spawned broods of Venomthropes to blanket the greenskins in a thick, toxic fog. As the Orks pursued their quarry, they rode headlong into the sudden, blinding mist. The entire convoy ground to a halt as vehicles skidded into rocky outcrops or else lost control and ploughed into each other. Coughing and hacking, those Orks that hadn’t choked on their own blood pulled themselves from the wreckage. Skarfang himself stumbled across the battlefield and happened across the tentacled beasts responsible for creating the noxious cloud. As he vented his anger on the venomous creatures, the fog receded and the eviscerated corpses of Orks surrounded the Warboss. Lictors had stalked through the blinding cloud and despatched the unwary greenskins one at a time until only Skarfang remained. The Lictors closed on their true quarry, surrounding the Warboss in deathly silence. Revving his chainblade into life, Skarfang charged the nearest with a roar of defiance. He managed two steps before a dozen mantis-like claws pierced his form and tore him asunder.
With Skarfang dead, it was not long before vying Ork bosses started fighting amongst
themselves to fill the power vacuum. The Orks were soon divided, and the disparate bands became easy prey to the united Tyranid swarm. Each was isolated and destroyed in quick succession, and within days, the Orks on Ghorala had been slaughtered like cattle. The Tyranids gorged themselves on their flesh.

THE SWARM REBORN
From the digested remains of Ghorala, the swarm created new bio-ships and set forth to rejoin the hive fleet at Octaria, the biomass it had consumed destined to fuel the next phase of planetary invasion."

Similarly, can a planet where tyrannoforming has begun ever be rid of the infestation? Fluff from the likes of Blood of Baal seems to imply 'purification' is possible but I did not find any detail.

Macragge and Iyanden still bears the scars of the tyranids invasion, but I assume the tyranids were wiped out completely.

Guess it also depends on the hive fleet.

8th edition:

"HIVE FLEET JORMUNGANDR

Hive Fleet Jormungandr is the Great Serpent, an insidious menace that has plagued Imperial space for centuries. The Imperium has claimed to have destroyed the hive fleet on several occasions, only to discover that Jormungandr has burrowed deep beneath the infrastructure of its worlds like a flesh-eating parasite, lying in wait for the perfect moment to re-emerge.
Jormungandr favours a unique method of planetary invasion. Initially, it keeps its bio-ships as far away from enemy defences as possible. Instead, its hive vessels utilize gigantic, whip-like dorsal growths to hurl space debris at the targeted world. Orbital guns may destroy many of these objects, but at least a few will reach the surface. Should that happen, the planet’s doom is sealed, for Jormungandr has sown each asteroid with Tyrannocyte clusters and Ravener broods, and larger bioforms such as Mawlocs and Trygons. Upon landfall, these burrowers dig deep in into the earth, creating vast underground tunnels beneath key fortifications.
When the invasion begins, swarms of hidden horrors burst forth from these ambush sites, emerging amidst the unaware foe and tearing them apart. Should this assault somehow be repulsed the threat is still not over, for the hive fleet will go to ground in the tunnel network it has created, digging in with grim resolve. Once ensconced, it is almost impossible to dislodge. It may take a few months, or several years, but Jormungandr will always rise again."

Awesome, thanks guys!

About 40% of the Commissar Cain books is him and Vail almost singlehandidly beating back Tyranid invasions. It happens quite often in the fluff. The Zerg in the books loose a lot. Because all the warring factions come together to defeat the threat. In the first two books it shows the Tau and the Imperial Guard (With Inquisitorial backup) overcoming a purstrain cult on the cusp of an invasion. It usually just results in the Nids packing up and leaving for a less well defended world. Leviathan straight up gave up on several forge world invasions (Fecundis) Although that took some weird fluff mcguffery. Basically two hive ships from different fleets cannot exist in the same place, it disrupts the control systems. So they activate a piece of an old hiveship, and they make an astropath concentrate really hard, she dies, and the nids just leave.

Odd I don't recall the "two hive ships can't operate in the same area" bit of lore. Sounds like a bit of Imperial thinking and that that Astropath did something funky to the signal at the same time.

Otherwise tyrainds would have broken themselves apart already long ago.



And yeah because tyranids have basically no spoken role in stories and no heroic characters of their own as such (we have the Swarmlord though but he's not all that talkative) ; Tyranids do get used as the "big bad guy" in the setting a lot.

Basically the two hive minds were fighting over who gets to control the little bugs, so the stronger hive mind tried to destroy the weaker one and take his lunch.

Deus Ex Machina later, and the stronger hive mind leaves.

Was actually a pretty good novel, all of the Commisar Cain books are.

That doesn't make sense. There's 1 Hive Mind.

Valedor also has two Hive Fleets (Kraken and Leviathan) coexisting and almost merging, although it notes there are some compatibility issues between different Hive Fleets.

Think of Tyranids like a body. There's one mind guiding the body, but the components that make up the body can be tricked into fighting each other or hurting each other. There's whole segments of medical study on diseases and infections that cause our own immune systems to attack our own bodies. Tyranids like can be tricked the same way, its just not very easy to do so.

So yeah, the only thing really that "lost control" were the Gaunts and the stealers. And they just become "feral" in the book. Didn't the Eldar pull some sort of trickery like this, but duplicating a call that attracted them? No, wait, that was StarCraft. Silly me.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So yeah, the only thing really that "lost control" were the Gaunts and the stealers. And they just become "feral" in the book. Didn't the Eldar pull some sort of trickery like this, but duplicating a call that attracted them? No, wait, that was StarCraft. Silly me.

No Eldar made Tyranids fly into a star making them think it was a planet. At least I think.

Tyran wrote:
Valedor also has two Hive Fleets (Kraken and Leviathan) coexisting and almost merging, although it notes there are some compatibility issues between different Hive Fleets.

They really dropped the ball in regards to the plot in Valedor..

In the 8th editon codex (and 6th) its stated that:

"The Hive Mind had learnt well the lessons of its earlier invasions, and this new fleet, Leviathan, employed these teachings to the detriment of all other life it encountered".

Yet then, just a few pages later:

"There have been times when the starfaring bio-fleets have fallen foul of warp storms, never to appear again. Some, like the splinter fleet of Kraken that was sent headlong into the empyrean by the seers of Craftworld Iyanden, face an even stranger fate. This Tyranid host’s bio-ships later emerged from a dimensional rift into the Valedor System, deep in the Segmentum Solar. The splinter fleet had crossed the span of the galaxy in a matter of years. Worse still, it had emerged right in the path of Hive Fleet Leviathan.
When Iyanden’s seers learnt of this, panic gripped them. If the bio-matter from Hive Fleet Kraken were to merge with that of Leviathan, the resultant strains of Tyranids would be all but unstoppable, for they would combine the genetic secrets of Ork, Aeldari and human alike. Dreading the repercussions that this unholy union would have upon the craftworlds of the Aeldari, the Iyanden council implored their allies on militant Biel-Tan to intercede. Yet despite its swift and deadly attacks, even the Swordwind was unable to keep the hive fleets apart.
If it were not for a shadowy bargain struck with the Drukhari, the paradise planet of Valedor – or Dûriel as the Aeldari called it – would have been the birth site of a new doom for the galaxy. By using the Fireheart, a Commorrite artefact of incredible power, the combined forces of the Aeldari destroyed Dûriel in a storm of fire and violence just as the Tyranids were about to seize their vile prize. In the process they averted disaster – for a time, at least…"

Both cant be true/it makes no sense..

I'm not so sure there is a contradiction, Andersp90. The lessons learnt are intellectual ones of strategy and counter-measures, the kind of information which can be shared across the hive mind. Telepathy.

The merging of strains is a genetic one, which require bodily transfer and perhaps cannot be coded psychically across the Warp into other hive fleets' genome. Biology.

Adaption does seem to have some logistical limits within the Swarm. We've seen things like Old One Eye evolve in near isolation within the story; only seeming to rejoin the swarm once it was saved by another hive ship.

The only genetic data that seems to jump through the swarm on its own in near perfection and recollection of its past is the Swarm Lord which appears to be an enigma within the hive itself.


Plus before chapterhouse the Swarm had several "hero" units that were unique evolution. Either requiring specific resources to evolve or unique by their evolution to deal with specific situations.


Heck the Tyranids also weapon-test within themselves by attacking each other at times.


There's clearly some aspects of them which are not "perfect". It's much like how the Borg in Star Trek seek perfection within the machine and yet clearly don't use their full cybernetic knowledge on the average drone.

Putting every capability into every organism would cost energy and biomass the hive mind does not need to spend. Same reason we do not see real life organisms have super-strength or extreme senses or any other crazy capabilities that are biologically possible: the investment must be weighed against the reward.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
I'm not so sure there is a contradiction, Andersp90. The lessons learnt are intellectual ones of strategy and counter-measures, the kind of information which can be shared across the hive mind. Telepathy.

The merging of strains is a genetic one, which require bodily transfer and perhaps cannot be coded psychically across the Warp into other hive fleets' genome. Biology.

It just seems incredibly silly.

 Andersp90 wrote:

It just seems incredibly silly.

It isnt. One of the fields I work in is immunology. Biocompatiblity is an exceptionally complicated web of factors and systems. Autoimmunity driven by combining wildly different hive fleet biology is a hell of a drug.

All the official Tyranid fluff is nonsensical at anything but the quickest glance. Either don't think about it, or make up your own head-canon.

'member when the deathleaper was a Medusa V organism ?
'member when the Imperium tried to avoid it merge with the hive fleet ?
Ah yes I remember...
'member when the background made sense ?
'member when Reagan was president ?

Has there ever been a president of france called Reagan?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

It just seems incredibly silly.

It isnt. One of the fields I work in is immunology. Biocompatiblity is an exceptionally complicated web of factors and systems.

Sure, but if it can be explained in text by a mon-keigh, surely it can be communicated between the fleets. Unless ofc the hive mind is somehow inferior to a fax machine from the 80's..

Genetics seems to have metaphysical properties in 40k. The best example is the Emperor and his work on the Primarchs, Custodes and Space Marines, which is seen as holy and divine.

Or how geneseed is treated as such holy resource and the traitor geneseed is considered to be inherently tainted.

And of course Psykers seem to have a genetic component.

 Andersp90 wrote:


Sure, but if it can be explained in text by a mon-keigh, surely it can be communicated between the fleets. Unless ofc the hive mind is somehow inferior to a fax machine from the 80's..

Knowing something, and being able to implement it within an existing biological structure are two vastly different things.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:


Sure, but if it can be explained in text by a mon-keigh, surely it can be communicated between the fleets. Unless ofc the hive mind is somehow inferior to a fax machine from the 80's..

Knowing something, and being able to implement it within an existing biological structure are two vastly different things.

Psychically communicating the blueprints of DNA, proteins and a user's manual makes less sense to you, than two hiveships physically exchanging genetic material? How is the latter any different?

 Andersp90 wrote:

Psychically communicating the blueprints of DNA, proteins and a user's manual makes less sense to you, than two hiveships physically exchanging genetic material? How is the latter any different?

You've completely misunderstood me. The communication isnt the issue. It's adding the traits from one organism to the other without fething everything up royally thats the underlying issue. It's not a simple matter of "cut and paste this DNA, hey you're improved!". Genetics, cell function, and the myriad of internal systems that make a living multicellular organism work are incalculably complex. Variations as small as single base pairs in the genome for instance can be the difference between a healthy organism and one that melts from the inside (there are several metabolic disorders in humans for instance that can be traced to such errors). And that doesnt even touch on the non-genetic but non-pathogenic causes of disease (again, that pesky immune regulation).

It makes every kind of sense that different Hive Fleets that have evolved in response to wildly differing stimuli end up being incompatible, while still being part of the same underlying taxonomy.

 Flinty wrote:
Has there ever been a president of france called Reagan?

Haha sorry that was a tribute to South Park season 20 with the member berries, when they remind people of good things of the past and suddenly remind them of very conservative things like " 'member when there wasn't all those Mexican ?"
While staying on topic by bringing this old story of the deathleaper who the imperials feared would merge with the hive fleet and thus be available for all of them to produce.

Sterling191 wrote:

The communication isnt the issue. It's adding the traits from one organism to the other without fething everything up royally thats the underlying issue. It's not a simple matter of "cut and paste this DNA, hey you're improved!". Genetics, cell function, and the myriad of internal systems that make a living multicellular organism work are incalculably complex. Variations as small as single base pairs in the genome for instance can be the difference between a healthy organism and one that melts from the inside (there are several metabolic disorders in humans for instance that can be traced to such errors). And that doesnt even touch on the non-genetic but non-pathogenic causes of disease (again, that pesky immune regulation).

I have a medical background. Non of the above is news to me. Your arguement just doesn't make sense to me.

Sterling191 wrote:
It makes every kind of sense that different Hive Fleets that have evolved in response to wildly differing stimuli end up being incompatible, while still being part of the same underlying taxonomy.

I guess you haven't read the quote/lore being discussed.

Codex tyranids 8th edition:

""There have been times when the starfaring bio-fleets have fallen foul of warp storms, never to appear again. Some, like the splinter fleet of Kraken that was sent headlong into the empyrean by the seers of Craftworld Iyanden, face an even stranger fate. This Tyranid host’s bio-ships later emerged from a dimensional rift into the Valedor System, deep in the Segmentum Solar. The splinter fleet had crossed the span of the galaxy in a matter of years. Worse still, it had emerged right in the path of Hive Fleet Leviathan.
When Iyanden’s seers learnt of this, panic gripped them. If the bio-matter from Hive Fleet Kraken were to merge with that of Leviathan, the resultant strains of Tyranids would be all but unstoppable, for they would combine the genetic secrets of Ork, Aeldari and human alike. Dreading the repercussions that this unholy union would have upon the craftworlds of the Aeldari, the Iyanden council implored their allies on militant Biel-Tan to intercede. Yet despite its swift and deadly attacks, even the Swordwind was unable to keep the hive fleets apart.
If it were not for a shadowy bargain struck with the Drukhari, the paradise planet of Valedor – or Dûriel as the Aeldari called it – would have been the birth site of a new doom for the galaxy. By using the Fireheart, a Commorrite artefact of incredible power, the combined forces of the Aeldari destroyed Dûriel in a storm of fire and violence just as the Tyranids were about to seize their vile prize. In the process they averted disaster – for a time, at least…"

 Andersp90 wrote:


I have a medical background. Non of the above is news to me. Your arguement just doesn't make sense to me.

Welcome to immunology. gak doesnt make sense, but thats how it works.

 Andersp90 wrote:


I guess you haven't read the quote/lore being discussed.

I absolutely have. Tyranid bioforming isnt omnipotent. The simple fact that time and again they fall prey to biological attacks alone is proof enough of that.

But please, by all means please continue to lecture everyone about how your favored faction is invincible.