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How do?

So if like me, you’re a colossal fan of Star Wars, I’m hoping you might share my realisation.

See, much as I enjoy all the movies. Without reserve. Yes, all three trilogies and the Ewok Movies?

I genuinely find the small screen efforts (Clone Wars, Ewoks, Droids, Rebels, Clone Wars* The Mandalorian) efforts far more enjoyable.

It’s hard to explain sufficiently and concisely. So I’ll spare you an awful lot of waffle, and just say - the galaxy set up in all 9 films really, really suits TV type shows.

They can take their time, and suss it out as show makers. If 20/30 minutes of a film drags like a Seal’s ring piece? That’s bad. On a TV show? Fix it next season (assuming you get one, but we’re talking Star Wars, so of course!).

To avoid mindless beer induced waffling? What the fans (not all, I’ll accept that) want is to explore different corners of the established galaxy. Few if any of those corners really need or deserve a movie.

But give them 10 45 minute episodes? Or variations upon? The story gets to the point far sooner. Even in some of Clone Wars less enjoyable arcs (R2 Commandos was fun, but outstayed it’s welcome for my money) went on an episode too long? With TV, you can quickly and easily correct and adapt.

So whatever Disney does with it going forward? I’m hoping they appreciate its Serial root, and run with it.

The thing with star wars is it was new. When it came out it was totally new. There's never been anything like it on screen before. You had the old flash gordon and buck rogers serials of the 30's but star wars was just totally new. The action with the effects were beyond anything ever seen before.

That's why it was a huge hit.

Now star wars is old hat, that's wht people just don't get. You can make better effects but they aren't what made star wars special, they aren't new.

It does suit a serial format better. And the movies do mostly suck (imo). I think the issue is the movies need to keep escalating. And we have escalated to a fleet of ships all of which can destroy planets.

A show, by its nature is smaller scale and i think thats much better. Both for exploring more corners of the galaxy but also because we dont have to constantly ramp up to insane levels.

Movies are fantastic in many ways, but they are abysmal for telling big stories and huge sweeping story arcs. Especially in fantasy/sci-fi settings where a lot of the story and world has to be built for the viewer.


A TV series* has a lot more time than a movie. A single film might at the very best have 3 hours to work with. A simple 10 episode TV series with 30min episodes already has 5 hours to play with. With many episodes now being closer to 40mins or longer and with many series being more than 10 episodes long for a season that's even more potential story telling time.


So a TV series has way more scope to play and present things for the viewer. Especially in today's TV market where we've got far more support for story driven series which are not bound to an episodic formula.
I'd also agree that there's less pressure on TV writers to produce big effects, if any thing budget limits promote the opposite approach. Movies do indeed tend to bring outa bit of a "throw money at big moments" aspect. Big explosions and battles and suchlike. The big sock and awe approach, which I'd also argue is a bit of a culture established very firmly in the Hollywood film engine. I don't think its inherent in every film studio nor is it essential for every film or film series to keep out-doing with more effects. It's very strongly, in my view, a Hollywood thing (which explains why they've so fallen in love with Comic heroes right now).




When Starwars came out we were in the old days when many series were fully episodic. Star Trek actually shows the evolution of TV attitudes through time really neatly.

Original Series - fully episodic with very limited character development and change between episodes. For the most part you can drop in at any point you want and understand what is going on and who is who.

TNG - we start getting some casual long running story elements and shifts. We see some character deaths such as Tasha and we also see characters changing and evolving through the series (Wesley and Data). Although there's still a strong episodic element going on, its now enabling some changes at the same time.

DS9 - in this series we now start to see not just a broader character roster but several other big bold changes. We see the series internally shift from nearly fully episodic into story driven as it evolves and builds into the Dominion War.
We see "mini episodes" that shift the view character to character. This allows far greater development and evolution of multiple characters. It also allows for a structure where there's no clear "lead" character, instead you've closer to a lead group. Although DS9 tends to keep reserved in terms of character deaths, it is at least setting ground work for the idea of establishing a format which could allow for characters to leave and enter without disrupting the series flow.


Beyond DS9 things jump around a bit. Voyager mixed up TNG with DS9 with a stronger Episodic component and we saw this maintained with many of the series that followed. Picard however picks up and goes for a fully story driven narrative that has no real episodic elements, although it does opt for a tighter core character group and a very clear lead character.







*and books have almost infinite time so long as the writer can keep writing and keep the audience engaged.

I feel the same way,
The world of star wars has always been more interesting the the story they where following.
But then again i love the world/idea of harry potter and hate the books.

I tend to find personal and low stakes stories are far more interesting.

'Epic' has reached the end of its usefulness as a concept, as Hollywood (and book & game publishers) always look for the next tier of Epicness to throw at the audience, believing they'll be bored otherwise.

But at this point, epic is boring. 20-30 minute stints of CGI action replacing plot and character development is boring.

For Star Wars specifically, give me a young couple trying to escape their gang life on Nar Shadda, or an explorer outfit surveying the Unknown Reaches, or politicking with Alderrean diplomats over who has the proper Nerf Herding rights in the mountains rather than an even more bigger galaxy spanning super weapon.

I don't think this has much to do with Star Wars personally. We're in the era of "fantastic TV" and by that I mean serious, huge-budget, quality acted TV series. Assuming you have competent writers, you're always going to have a stronger chance at a good story with even just six or eight episodes vs. a 90-120 minute movie.

I'd take a season of Stranger Things over any film I've seen in the past 10-15 years. I'd rather watch a season of Game of Thrones (up to Season 4 at least) over most other things. Even The Witcher which I didn't rate was still probably better than most big budget movies now days. HBO has built a legacy on astounding 10-episode TV shows.

Also, TV shows tend to have better casts. Either due to budget, or the fact that they don't need to sell a 90-120 minute film on ultra-star power, you end up with smaller and often much better actors. They may not be household names or stunningly beautiful (the kind of draw you need for a film in the theater), but they often are far better or enjoyable actors.

PS: Ignoring the likely awful Amazon effort....I think things like The Lord of the Rings, if released in 2020, etc. (skipping the Covid nonsense) would likely be considered an HBO 10-part miniseries over actual film release, etc.).

I'm in two minds, thing is it started as a fairy tale and as such you just have accept the world as it is, the more you poke at it the less it makes sense, the starting hook for the prequel trilogy is so silly, Space Tax and Space road blocks of a planet that doesn't seem of much consequence, and bod knows what happened to the sequels started ok, then swerved in a hamfisted Kotot 2 direction, then JJ flailed the course correct and really didnt stick the landing (hint Mr A, don't use your worst actor as the central character)

but liked Clone Wars and Rebels, yes they are Saturday morning cartoons but that's about the right level of good/bad/naughty conflict that fits the setting

Not holding out much hope for High Republic,

Had forgotten about High Republic!

I’m optimistic about it. Not only because it’s new to the the fandom (rather than doing Old Republic), but because it’s an interesting endeavour.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Had forgotten about High Republic!

I’m optimistic about it. Not only because it’s new to the the fandom (rather than doing Old Republic), but because it’s an interesting endeavour.

oh the click-klaxon have already pretended to get upset about the 'agenda', although these days putting a white blonde lady front and centre is stunning and brave (j/k), personally I wanted a grumpy octopus-person jedi but we'll see

Thanks to its "Buster Crabbe" weekly-serial influence, Star Wars was perfect for a television show. Quite frankly, Clone Wars and Rebels are bloody brilliant. Dave Filoni has George's sense of child like wonder when it comes to the creative part but also understands the audience need as a director. He also appreciates elements from the EU which worked well, which was respectful of the talent that had come before and the fans who appreciated it.

One self evident fact about SW is that the best way to enjoy it is to ignore the sequel movies we just had and read Timothy Zahn's "Heir to the empire" series instead. See Thrawn the way the guy who created him wanted you too.

Thrawn was the man back in the EU days and its good to see Dave Filoni included him in Rebels.

Did you read Outbound Flight?

 Matt Swain wrote:
One self evident fact about SW is that the best way to enjoy it is to ignore the sequel movies we just had and read Timothy Zahn's "Heir to the empire" series instead. See Thrawn the way the guy who created him wanted you too.

Well, that, and the X-Wing novels.

Thrawn has a new trilogy, again by Timothy Zahn. Whilst I read Heir to The Empire over a decade ago and thus don’t remember them at all? This trilogy is pretty good.

If someone is familiar with both trilogies, any chance of chiming in with whether you feel they’re mutually exclusive, or could be read as a sequel/prequel tale in their own right?

Anyways. I’ve just watched Rise of Skywalker for the second time in as many days. And it’s left me with the question of ‘where now?’

I mean, it’s a pretty definitive end to that particular arc. But it does beg the question of what does the Galaxy do next? Do they refound the New Republic, or go a smaller, more local government route? Would this change over time, from the immediate aftermath to mid and long term?

I mean, it’s 30 years after Endor, give or take. So any die-hard Imperial types won’t just be hopelessly out of fashion, but seriously knocking on a bit.

Is this something people would like to be explored sooner, later, or even not at all? (No judgement here, because in a positive way, I don’t care all that much about your preference, as it doesn’t impact on mine, and vice versa).

Me? I think I’d like a Mando type series, where we see some remnant of the First Order, and follow their tale once the majority of their forces are scattered? Could be live action, could be animated. Could even be prose. I’m not overly fussy.

Heck, given what, 50 years of relative anarchy following the fall of the Republic, the Rebellion, the New Republic’s rise and fall, I dare say there may be some systems still interested in a more regimented, ‘lawful’ way of life. I think following a system or small collective of systems fending off those determined that their version of Freedom is wrong could be flipping interesting?

I really enjoy Star Wars as a setting more than anything, I honestly think most of the movies are terrible. Empire is the only film I genuinely enjoy from start to finish, the rest run the gamut from meh to total garbage. Stuff like the Heir to the Empire trilogy, the Rogue Squadron games, Shadow of the Empire on the N64, Jedi Knight II, and Knights of the Old Republic did a lot more for me than the films themselves. I'm sick to death of the Skywalker clan and desperately want more of Dash Rendar, Kyle Katarn, Darth Revan, and all that other juicy EU magic. Just get away from Palpatine and the Skywalkers!

It just so happens that I’ve started watching The Clone Wars properly for the first time recently, after watching episodes 1 & 2 as a reminder. And the Mandalorian too...yes I’ve got Disney plus.

And I totally agree...Star Wars works far far far better as a tv series than it does as movies. I mean come on, only about a 1/4 of the movies are actually any good (ANH, ESB, Rogue One and maybe Solo), the rest are mediocre to absolute crap. And even the vaulted original trilogy starts to fall apart story wise near the end (they were twins? Nah nah nah...).

But the tv series work much better for the reasons already outlined. As a setting Star Wars is among the best, but it’s struggled to realise its potential a lot of the time, and honestly I think it’s because it was stuck in the wrong format.

Blockbusters are dead people. TV is the future.

 Future War Cultist wrote:


And I totally agree...Star Wars works far far far better as a tv series than it does as movies. I mean come on, only about a 1/4 of the movies are actually any good (ANH, ESB, Rogue One and maybe Solo), the rest are mediocre to absolute crap. And even the vaulted original trilogy starts to fall apart story wise near the end (they were twins? Nah nah nah...).

George was pretty much trying to do Flash Gordon and Dune, amongst other things. He just wanted his own version of Leto and Ghanima from Children of Dune. One could easily write a small book on what influenced Star Wars.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Thrawn has a new trilogy, again by Timothy Zahn. Whilst I read Heir to The Empire over a decade ago and thus don’t remember them at all? This trilogy is pretty good.

If someone is familiar with both trilogies, any chance of chiming in with whether you feel they’re mutually exclusive, or could be read as a sequel/prequel tale in their own right?

They could indeed be taken as sequels/prequel takes (other than possibly the new book but it hasn't been released yet, so who knows at this point?). I would say that the original Heir to the Empire series is better than the new series but the new one is still fantastic.

On the overall thread, I am in whole hearted support for the idea but the fact that no one has bought up Resistance yet is shocking, much like that complete turd of a series. 2 Series and 3 (maybe) okayish episodes between them which goes to show that something's are best left well alone. Got mixed feelings on the new CW series, the initial bad batch episodes were great but have not been feeling the Ashoka ones at all.

I only didn’t mention Resistance as I’ve not seen it. Was hoping it’d be on D+ in the U.K., but not as yet.

Will weigh in when I’m informed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One series I’m adamant we need is one centred on Crimson Dawn.

Solo set it up really nicely, and I enjoyed the rug pull when we found out just who is the head man there. And now, in the Final Season of the Clone Wars we find the earliest mention on screen.

Now that introduces three acts.

1. Founding of Crimson Dawn (can potentially tie in to The Madalorian, after a fashion, given Maul was Mandalore based)

2. Their rise to power. No small thing when you’re up against Hutts, Black Sun Syndicate etc. They’re established players, so muscling in is quite the achievement

3. Their fall. Just how did Maul go from heading up a seemingly vast and feared crime syndicate to being broken and alone on Malachor? Does that mean Crimson Dawn crumbled, or that Maul was merely ousted? If the latter, what did they get up to post Empire?

In short, Crimson Dawn are a great lens to examine the wider galaxy pre, during and post Empire.

SamusDrake wrote:
George was pretty much trying to do Flash Gordon and Dune, amongst other things. He just wanted his own version of Leto and Ghanima from Children of Dune. One could easily write a small book on what influenced Star Wars.

That’s a book I’d love to read. Hell, I read somewhere that he originally wanted to make Flash Gordon, and when he couldn’t, he made Star Wars. Ironically, the success of which probably helped the actual Flash Gordon movie get made.

What was the other inspiration? Valérian and Laureline?

I’m currently happily making my way through The Clone Wars. OK, bits of it are silly, but overall it’s working out far better than the films did. TV really does suit it better.

For those discovering Clone Wars for the first time, let me know if it changes your appreciation for the general prequel era!

Voss wrote:
I tend to find personal and low stakes stories are far more interesting.

Maybe not a low-stakes example, but this kind of thing is why I really enjoy the movie Battle: Los Angeles. It's the classic alien invasion trope, but we're experiencing it from the perspective of the regular grunts on the ground. We (the audience) know only what they know, rather than having the bigger picture like in Independence Day. The closest thing to this in Star Wars has to be Rogue One, but again it's not really low stakes considering the theft of the Death Star plans was key to the Rebellion's eventual victory.

I'd be very interested in seeing more of this kind of thing in Star Wars for sure. The Mandalorian is kind of scratching that itch, so we'll see where that goes next season.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I only didn’t mention Resistance as I’ve not seen it. Was hoping it’d be on D+ in the U.K., but not as yet.

Will weigh in when I’m informed

I would recommend drinking heavily before starting! There are some great new fighters in the series (FO Interceptor, T-85 X-Wing and misc. others) but that's about as good as it gets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One series I’m adamant we need is one centred on Crimson Dawn.

Solo set it up really nicely, and I enjoyed the rug pull when we found out just who is the head man there. And now, in the Final Season of the Clone Wars we find the earliest mention on screen.

Now that introduces three acts.

1. Founding of Crimson Dawn (can potentially tie in to The Madalorian, after a fashion, given Maul was Mandalore based)

2. Their rise to power. No small thing when you’re up against Hutts, Black Sun Syndicate etc. They’re established players, so muscling in is quite the achievement

3. Their fall. Just how did Maul go from heading up a seemingly vast and feared crime syndicate to being broken and alone on Malachor? Does that mean Crimson Dawn crumbled, or that Maul was merely ousted? If the latter, what did they get up to post Empire?

In short, Crimson Dawn are a great lens to examine the wider galaxy pre, during and post Empire.

With you here, would love to see a dark and gritty crime syndicate series. Though the rise of CD against the other gangster groups was all done in CW already but there are other avenues to explore, would like to see a rise of the Black Sun, Xisor/Guri, series.

What I would really like though is for an Empire focused series, there is plenty of material to work with (like Inferno Squadron) and I reckon that well handled it could add a lot of depth to the franchise without just making the Empire out to be cartoon villain types.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those discovering Clone Wars for the first time, let me know if it changes your appreciation for the general prequel era!

Not exactly discovering them for the first time, but to me Clone Wars is everything the prequels should have been, but weren't.

I think the issue with an Empire focussed series is making the protagonists sympathetic without them defecting to the Rebellion or what have you. Because the die hards we’ve seen are pretty awful people, loyal to a regime they know to be bullying and oppressive.

That West End's Star Wars 2nd Edition is the best Star Wars RPG.....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think the issue with an Empire focussed series is making the protagonists sympathetic without them defecting to the Rebellion or what have you. Because the die hards we’ve seen are pretty awful people, loyal to a regime they know to be bullying and oppressive.

LucasArts Tie Fighter covered this magnificently where the Imperial Navy still had the job of protecting civilian traffic, not just from rebel attacks but from Imperial traitors and mutineers, pirates and bandits.

They introduced Admiral Zaarin who basically turns on the Emperor with a renegade fleet, and becomes a greater threat than the rebel alliance - even more ruthless than the Emperor himself.

The master stroke was to tie in with Timothy Zahn's trilogy by having the player join Admiral Thrawn in hunting down the swine. Thrawn suddenly becomes that Sherlock Holmes "hero" of the piece - along with yourself as "Alpha One", the pilot who has thwarted many merciless attacks on civilian traffic and survived many times against overwhelming odds and treachery. Its Thrawn's resourcefullness and supreme power of deduction against the technological and military superority of Zaarin.

It even took time out to tie-in with Shadows of The Empire.

Fair enough I know I’ve played it, but was too young to appreciate the plot!

Currently rewatching some Mando, ready for tomorrow’s U.K. release of the next Chapter (6, I think).

And it’s really helped me put my finger on what the lifeblood of Star Wars is to me.

In short? It’s the Cantina scene. Never mind it blew my mind with the variety of gribblies when I first saw it, which it did. But it’s the clear statement that this is a lived-in galaxy. Despite the grand happenings, there are far, far more people just going about their lives as best they can.

Species that wouldn’t be formally identified for years. On screen for mere seconds. Yet it flashes everything out to a ridiculous degree.

Those are the bits I like the most. Cantina, Jabba’s Palace, Maz’s Castle. Teeny tiny windows into a wider world.

If Disney were feeling particularly ballsy, they could even do an anthology series in the vein of the entertaining ‘Tales from’ books. Not straight up filming the existing series, but not outright discarding some of the better ones (said tales were not of uniform quality!)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those discovering Clone Wars for the first time, let me know if it changes your appreciation for the general prequel era!

Let me say that I still think that a lot of the prequels general ideas are flawed. For example, the idea of an army of droids fighting an army of clones...this is because of George's obsession with CGI. He wanted two CGI created factions to fight it out, but he couldn't devote the time into making all of the individual combatants actual individuals...so he made them all clones/droids. And I guess there’s nothing wrong with that pre say...but I’ve always felt more invested in the ‘real’ fighters of the original era.

But having said that...TCW is definitely improving my perception of the whole clone war era. For starters, the characterisation is a million times better. Annakin’s in particular. And it’s handling the world building far better than the movies ever did too. Part of what made the originals work imo is that it kept the world building concise. The prequels spread themselves too thin in the movies, but on TV, a couple of episodes devoted to one planet or faction or whatever, works way better.

Yeah, The Clone Wars is a massive improvement over the prequel movies. A massive improvement!