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What's super powerful about Luke's projection? He wasn't able to physically interact with anything and doing it killed him. Seems very limited in use.

The shared space power was hinted in TLJ but 9 takes it pretty far pretty fast. Theoretically it ties to the World Between Worlds that connects all moments of space and time through the force. Theoretically, the Dyad could mean they're connected at the same point, which would connect their locations through one another or something to that effect.

Also notice how the process basically kills him. Even though he was near invulnerable the effort and will needed to project himself pretty much destroys him. So it would work for the Jedi - once.

It might well have been known, but the toll and potential death was likely a huge barrier. It's a total last-ditch effort that, once finished (and he was not projecting for all that long either) can't be repeated.


He pays a cost for that power. Luke of the new Trilogy was sadly done poorly. His actual character of a failed hero, broken into extreme depression reinforced by years of isolation to the point where when he makes his return its a last-ditch suicidal attempt. All that I love and adds volumes to his character. However his presentation in the film is heavily flawed because we don't see that journey. We only see the end result.

That's bad because it makes it much harder to identify with him. WE don't see his struggle to rebuild a new Jedi Order. Of the hours and effort he puts in, alone, to train a new generation and then the sudden crushing blow when the new Order is swept out from under his feet by the child of his sister and one of his best friends. Such an awesome display of defeat at the hands of a dark power that isn't supposed to even be around any more and yet it managed to achieve all that. We should have seen that as a big part of a film - a stand-in between the two - something that set the stage. Instead we launch right into the new film without the stage being set; which means we play catch-up the whole time and means that big changes in characters feel like they are different characters rather than evolution of ones we once loved.

We also saw very, very few Force abilities in the original trilogy.

Mind Trick and Choke in A New Hope, Force Push, Pull, Jump and Ghost in ESB, and Force Lightning in ROTJ. I’m counting Yoda’s levitation as the same thing as Pull, just more refined.

There might be a couple more, but none were particularly spectacular.

Even in the Prequels, there’s relatively limited demonstration of Force abilities. Indeed, we didn’t really see a proper proper Force Fight until the first animated Clone Wars, when Anakin and Ventriss scrap it out.

Indeed, Force Ghost was a new discipline it would seem, first learned or at least rediscovered by Qui Gonn (how, we don’t really know!).

Is Luke’s projection really that different to a Force Ghost? The only difference I can see in terms of the manifestation is that he wasn’t ded, so had a physical anchor.

Crucially, I can’t think of anything expressly saying such a feat wasn’t possible.

Thinking a wee bit further back, Obi-Wan’s discorporation of his physical form, leaving only his cloak and Saber behind seemed to take Vader by surprise, hence his cautious ‘erm......huh?’ Toeing of the robe. So even a Jedi/Sith as naturally powerful as Vader still hadn’t seen everything. Not even a man eat his own face.

 Overread wrote:
Even though he was near invulnerable

He's completely invulnerable because he's not really there. He's just an image that can't physically interact with anything and couldn't hurt Kylo if he wanted to.

In addition, Jedi were set in their ways. Sigh wanted power and were afraid to lose it. Killing yourself for a projection counts as “losing power”, if you can’t come back as a Force-Ghost. Plus, Rey and Ren are supposed to be a point of letting go of Sith/Jedi and be something more. I remember sabers flying, I don’t remember them teleporting. And sabers flew in all trilogies. Mace’s from E2, Luke’s in E5...yeah.

I get if you don’t like the characters. I get if you don’t like the story. But saying “they can’t do that” just because it hasn’t happened before...if that was true in real life, we’d still all be huddled around fire, gasping in awe at its majesty.

I personally feel like saber-teleporting is the least offensive decision made in the creation of that movie.

 LunarSol wrote:
What's super powerful about Luke's projection? He wasn't able to physically interact with anything and doing it killed him. Seems very limited in use.

Here's the way I look at it:

You're driving on an American highway near, say Los Angeles. You're listening to an FM radio station in the car, while you're driving to say, Las Vegas. . . . If you're familiar with how radio and FM works, then you'll understand why, as you drive from LA toward Vegas, that radio station you're jammin' to is starting to crackle and fade.

This is because that radio station is using a certain amount of power to broadcast its signal. . . . Luke broadcasting his Force Ghost across the pond is easy. Broadcasting it to the moon, quite a bit harder and requires more power. Projecting it literally lightyears away was proppa taxing on him, which is why he basically died

Yet Yoda’s X-Wing lesson? Literally mind over matter. Size and distance don’t matter.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet Yoda’s X-Wing lesson? Literally mind over matter. Size and distance don’t matter.

That one size fits all won't work for some powers though surely. Projecting a lightsaber 1m in front of you will take less time than projecting it 5 light years away. And force power has been proven time and again to be a finite resource that is not endless, you tap into it and your reserves start draining, the long you use it for or the more powerful the ability, the quicker the reserves drain.

Otherwise Palpatine could just walk around constantly using force lightening if it was just mind over matter.

I still don't like teleporting lightsabers, I see your arguments but every force power shown in film has had some basis in the established lore, that is not. I mean, you wouldn't need to use hyperspace, you could just teleport ships and the death star with the force etc if you so chose. It's canon breaking for me.

There's so many established powerful force powers that have never been shown on screen as well that could have been used, battle meditation could have been used by Luke in the TLJ to help the rebels escape for example.

Will it though?

The Force connects all things. Where there are beings, so is there The Force.

Luke knew where Rey was going, so he had a target destination to reach to out. He has a bloodline tie to both Leia and Ren, possibly making locating them easier.

From there? Inexplicable, unquantifiable spehsssss magics. Biggedy biggedy bong, Force Projection to troll his nephew.

We also see this when Leia reaches out to Ben during his final duel with Rey. She distracts Kylo Ren enough for Rey to stab him up a bit. Same discipline, different mastery level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If we’re going to piss on a movie for showing a new expression of Force Ability? Why not pick on Palpatine’s Electric Boogaloo Jazz Hands?

Or Luke just sort of figuring out he could use The Force to grab his lightsaber on Hoth (remember, Ben hadn’t manifested to him beyond a voice at that point, so seems unlike he had a trainer).

How about when Vader choked Admiral Motti? That’s clearly ridiculous as Vader had to physically grab the Rebel Captain. Lore breaking, 0/10, nerd rage!

You are very much correct about Vader force choking through a video/holo feed, I had completely forgotten about that.

I still think there is a difference between connecting through the force at a distance to a living being connected to the force, and teleporting an inanimate object.

I stand down from this argument tangent for the moment.

Palpating super lightening into the sky was ridiculous by the way, completely stupid levels of power.

Palps was seemingly unaware of Rey & Ben being a Dyad, hence his rapid change of plan when he figured out he could fix up his clone body.

He also acknowledges serious power in such a thing. And being able to teleport objects was shown earlier, when Ren grabs the necklace thing from round Rey’s neck. And he seemed a bit surprised when he does it.

I say just go with it. We’ll never know the totality off potential for Force Users, so to say it can’t be done seems a bit daft.

Perhaps whilst the Force connects all things, one's connection to it twists its around the limitations of the living mind. Ergo the Force manifests as lightning not just because its a "spell cast lightning" but because its a manifestation of power that is interpreted through the Emperors own mind. Which might explain why he can use lightning whilst Vader can mind choke. Both could be a very similar expression of will and power, but they are filtered through the mind, interpreted, given form by the imagination and will of the user.


When Yoda moves the X Wing he's clearly weakened at the end of the action. His lesson is that, in theory, the use of the Force should have no taxation to the mind and body. However in reality such a connection is hard to achieve. I believe his view is that highly force sensitive people, like Luke, can achieve a much greater connection. They are thus able to utilise a greater portion of the power whilst having a less taxing effect on their body.


However, like all things, practice and experience and understanding help. It might well be that had Luke remained in training and using his powers, he might have been able to Force Project without such heavy taxation on his body. That part of it was that he was akin to using an old muscle in a heavy way without prior building up to it.

I must admit, I like that idea of The Force uniquely tailoring itself to the individual, rather than being a set of pre existing 'powers' you level up to unlock too. That idea makes The Force seem more harmonious, symbiotic and even mysterious, which is exactly what it should be imo.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Palps was seemingly unaware of Rey & Ben being a Dyad, hence his rapid change of plan when he figured out he could fix up his clone body.

He also acknowledges serious power in such a thing. And being able to teleport objects was shown earlier, when Ren grabs the necklace thing from round Rey’s neck. And he seemed a bit surprised when he does it.

I say just go with it. We’ll never know the totality off potential for Force Users, so to say it can’t be done seems a bit daft.

I respect your opinion and that we are disagreeing on the matter, but personally I think this philosophy on the force is not one I want future film makers to have personally... Why bother building a death star if you can just achieve the same action with the force, which your argument would allow because we actually don't know the full extent of the force powers?

It must be capped personally... If you don't agree cool, we can draw a line under it.

I also like the personal aspect of the force, its what makes a rather average Jedi in Bastilla (KOTOR for those who don't know her) so amazing with her battle meditation ability, quite literally improving the combat ability, communication, strategic thinking and morale of a whole army on her own. It was said to be an extremely rare technique, if not unique because of her ability to utilise it across so many individuals. Extremely powerful technique but subtle, not quite 'LOL, let's destroy a whole fleet with super lightening because I've absorbed some power from some kids who have a bond'

Like I said, I respect that people can think differently but I don't like the powers in the new trilogy, there must be some tethering of power potential, otherwise it just because dragon ball z with the infinite power ups.

I think the whole "Powers like spells" is something that games pick up on because you can code it into a game easily. Meanwhile it also tends to resonate easily with the public because its a simple easy to convey concept in films. More individual powers and connections I think is something better conveyed in writing where you can more easily go into the mind of the character and see the internal will and struggle and shaping going on. Things that in a film might be a few moments of the character closing their eyes and the viewer having to make it up themselves as to what is happening.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:



I respect your opinion and that we are disagreeing on the matter, but personally I think this philosophy on the force is not one I want future film makers to have personally... Why bother building a death star if you can just achieve the same action with the force, which your argument would allow because we actually don't know the full extent of the force powers?

It must be capped personally... If you don't agree cool, we can draw a line under it.

I also like the personal aspect of the force, its what makes a rather average Jedi in Bastilla (KOTOR for those who don't know her) so amazing with her battle meditation ability, quite literally improving the combat ability, communication, strategic thinking and morale of a whole army on her own. It was said to be an extremely rare technique, if not unique because of her ability to utilise it across so many individuals. Extremely powerful technique but subtle, not quite 'LOL, let's destroy a whole fleet with super lightening because I've absorbed some power from some kids who have a bond'

Like I said, I respect that people can think differently but I don't like the powers in the new trilogy, there must be some tethering of power potential, otherwise it just because dragon ball z with the infinite power ups.

I think the idea of there being a cap on the power of the Force is alien to it. I think that it again introduces this idea of the Force being a sliding scale of experience in a computer game. Get enough experience and put points into Use Force and you can do more etc.. I don't think that's how the Force really is in the setting itself. I think even the concept of it having a cap would be hard to explain because its likely not a linear or even exponential power curve. There likely is no such concept as raw "power" within it.


The Force as I see it, is limited only by the limitations of the Galaxy. It's a power of vast potential and yet to tap into it is exceptionally rare. It's like looking beyond the veil of existence and bringing something back from it. With it you can affect that which is around you in the Galaxy. However the more you adjust an affect the more toll it typically takes on the person. However this is not fully linear, some very powerful skills don't appear to have any toll whilst others can.


Can the Force destroy a planet. I don't think Vader was trying to say that alone. Destroying a world is power, its extreme power. The Force could destroy a planet - that a person could wield the Force to destroy a planet is quite another matter. Furthermore just as the Force could destroy a world it could likely make a world. Indeed if its the fabric which binds the Galaxy - nay the Universe together then its likely that the Universe is a product of the Force in itself. (likely some kind of unity - one affects the other and one requires the other to function and exist etc... rather than the Force as a pure "God" like creator). The Force could create life (alluded too with Anakin, but not really in the right context or given enough weight); create whole races; whole systems; whole networks; a whole Galaxy. That kind of brings into context who insignificant the Deathstar is.

I do think the gamification of the Force is one of the big issues with the franchise currently. It's less an issue with the games themselves, but how they've caused fans to view things. I LOVED the games, particularly Jedi Outcast, but I also generally understood that they were applying good game design to the Force, not simulating it.

It's so common to hear people talk about things like "earning Dark Side points" and such that it feels very hard to appreciate the way the Force is presented in the films itself. I get the impression that some people think Palp sent Vader to kill the younglings to level up his Sith rating more than anything. The idea that if you don't keep doing your Puppy Kick Daily Quests you might inadvertently lose access to Force Choke has really plagued the series. I mean, the idea you need enough DSP to Force Choke itself is hugely problematic within the story of the original trilogy on its own.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet Yoda’s X-Wing lesson? Literally mind over matter. Size and distance don’t matter.

That kind of thinking leads to not every problem being solved with a lightsaber fight. Come on, man!

I really don’t like how Jedi were revealed to be a politicised space police staffed by incompetent morons. Only Qui-Gon and Ashoka (eventually) showed any semblance of how I thought they would be.

That’s kinda the point

...I guess it was.

As we've been discussing how force powers work, I used an FM radio analogy to illustrate Luke's strain in force trolling across the galaxy.. . .

I think further to that, there's an element at work where we can sort of combine Nightcrawler and Rand al Thor. . . . As we know, in most comics, Nightcrawler's teleport generally only works so far as he can see where he's bampfing to. . . . Rand can Travel, and accurately arrive based on his remembering/mental image of where he's going.

What I'm on about here is this: while Luke is a physical form, he can lift an X-wing with relative ease, provided he can see where it's at. He likely could force ghost across a courtyard with ease because he can see/imagine that spot quite easily. . . . However, reaching across half a galaxy with a ghosty form, with nought but his imagination to visualize the surroundings is likely very difficult.

Also, we know his imagination sucks, based on his "talk" with ghost yoda in which Yoda makes fun of him for the "sacred texts" (ie, he has no imagination, and requires the 'sacred texts' to really try and accomplish anything worthwhile)