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would their of been no Heresy?

look how glorious he is *cries*

Without a Heresy, you have no "evil" Marines, and a whole group of models disappears. So, yes, there is still a Heresy. Instead of being lead by the Warmaster, it's led by the 2nd in command, Horus.

Has less of a bite than having your first in command turn against you though, so less fulfilling as a story.

Of course there would have been a Heresy. Him and Russ would have had a war over their love triangle with their human girlfriend.

Chaos and Lorgar would have targeted him instead of Horus. Horus's flaw was pride, Sangy's would have been different, probably some variation of the plotline in "Fear to Tread".

I like thinking about the World Eaters without the Butchers Nails, emphasizing compassion and martial prowess in equal measure. Blood Angels could have fallen to Khorne instead of the World Eaters and the general course of the Heresy would have been relatively unaffected.

I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy.
---
All that said, feth the Emperor; let the galaxy burn!

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I like thinking about the World Eaters without the Butchers Nails, emphasizing compassion and martial prowess in equal measure. Blood Angels could have fallen to Khorne instead of the World Eaters and the general course of the Heresy would have been relatively unaffected.

I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy.
---
All that said, feth the Emperor; let the galaxy burn!

I've not made it all the way through the Heresy series, but was the obliteration of Monarchia the Emperor's first choice? Or had Lorgar been warned multiple times before about his peddling of religion?

 Wunzlez wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I like thinking about the World Eaters without the Butchers Nails, emphasizing compassion and martial prowess in equal measure. Blood Angels could have fallen to Khorne instead of the World Eaters and the general course of the Heresy would have been relatively unaffected.

I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy.
---
All that said, feth the Emperor; let the galaxy burn!

I've not made it all the way through the Heresy series, but was the obliteration of Monarchia the Emperor's first choice? Or had Lorgar been warned multiple times before about his peddling of religion?

Nyooooope! First warning, first consequence. Lorgar was going too slow or whatever. Emperor, as usually, overreacts. "I conquered and unified all of Terra. But no matter how much brute force I apply, I can never conquer my sons' hearts."

Why is the 41st millennium in such a mess? Cuz the Emperor's a very bad dad.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy!

If the Emperor has the empathy to actually raise the primarchs right, he probably couldn’t have conquered earth much less launched the great crusade. Magnus is a bad choice because he’s always going to be a puppet to tzeentch. No amount of warning would have satisfied the 1000 Sons curiosity. I’m not sure Lorgar has the aggression to carry out the crusade. Lorgar was a schemer and those blew up in his face a lot. Plus his two minions were chaos worshipers the entire time. The Lion was a choice for warmaster but he just didn’t get along with anyone. Horus was very charismatic and could usually get on anyone’s good side. Guilliman was another viable choice. Really he’s a great candidate for Warmaster because he does better work with organization and less with actually fighting. The only minus was that he was a bit too clinical in his approach to war and he had to be right about everything.

Sanguinius would have been the best candidate for the position probably though Horus would have been even more likely to turn in that case. Big Red was the most popular primarch and there’s very few primarchs who disliked him. One wonders why he wasn’t picked.

That being said I’m all with you. LET THE GALAXY BURN.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Wunzlez wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I like thinking about the World Eaters without the Butchers Nails, emphasizing compassion and martial prowess in equal measure. Blood Angels could have fallen to Khorne instead of the World Eaters and the general course of the Heresy would have been relatively unaffected.

I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy.
---
All that said, feth the Emperor; let the galaxy burn!

I've not made it all the way through the Heresy series, but was the obliteration of Monarchia the Emperor's first choice? Or had Lorgar been warned multiple times before about his peddling of religion?

Nyooooope! First warning, first consequence. Lorgar was going too slow or whatever. Emperor, as usually, overreacts. "I conquered and unified all of Terra. But no matter how much brute force I apply, I can never conquer my sons' hearts."

Why is the 41st millennium in such a mess? Cuz the Emperor's a very bad dad.

As the Emperor made very clear in Dark Millennium, he isn't a dad. The Primarchs were always a tool to him and letting them call him father was another way to manipulate them into doing what he needed them to do.

Probably a good time to mention "The Dornian Heresy", which was some pretty good fan fiction. Horus doesn't fall, but Dorn does instead. Basically all the loyalists become traitors and vice versa.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Sanguinius would have been the best candidate for the position probably though Horus would have been even more likely to turn in that case. Big Red was the most popular primarch and there’s very few primarchs who disliked him. One wonders why he wasn’t picked.

Fear to Tread hints that he was passed over because his wings were a mutation. Also, he already knew his sons were beginning to fall to the Red Thirst and seemed happy to let Horus have the limelight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
Why is the 41st millennium in such a mess? Cuz the Emperor's a very bad dad.

There is an interesting snippet in "Valdor" about this.

Malcador looked at him seriously. ‘What are you saying, Constantin?’

‘That if the primogenitors were truly scattered, can it be wisdom for us to seek them out? Should they not be left where they are? Destroyed? If they live, they will have the touch of their captors on them.’

Malcador nodded. ‘A risk. But we did not get where we are now without taking risks.’ He reached out and clapped Valdor’s arm. ‘We shall speak of this again. You shall speak of this with Him too, when He returns. Hone your arguments – I judge that He is determined to hunt for them. He has taken to referring to them as His “sons”. Can you imagine that? Neither could I, until I heard it from His own lips. There might even be some lingering attachment, there, though how long it will last I cannot say.’

Valdor hesitated. ‘Then His human sentiments – they are still ebbing.’

‘As He predicted. All things have their price.’

This is interesting as it implies that the Emperor is losing his emotions (possibly some side-effect of the deal he struck with the Chaos Gods). He may not have started out as a bad dad but slowly became one as he lost his ability to empathise.

I’d argue that Sangunius not wanting the position of warmaster is exactly why he should have been warmaster. People who don’t want massive amounts of power tend to be less likely to abuse it. I do like the suggestion that the emperor grew more cut off as time went along. It certainly makes him seem less brain dead.

In theory with this though The Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Sons of Horus would all still turn.

The Iron Warriors and Deathguard are questionable. Mortarion had to be convinced by Horus and it’s possible he would still want to work out his internal issues on the emperor. Perturabo is another questionable one because the final push for him going over was a brutal campaign against the Hrud in an empty corner of space, followed by razing Olympia. The Hrud deployment might have been a tool to push the Iron Warriors over the edge. On the other hand, all Horus has to say is “Dorn is on the other side, I’ll let you kick his sand castle over.”

The ones who get spared for the immediate time frame are the Thousand Sons. Without the order to raze Prospero Magnus most likely complies with the Wolves orders to bring him to Terra. Magnus would sir on the throne instead of the emperor and suddenly the war looks very different. The legion would still suffer from the flesh change so they’re on borrowed time but the emperor could either take the fight to the webway or go confront Horus before he gets juiced up.

Istvaan III probably still happens to some extent but without a traitor holding supreme command Istvaan V and Calth would be much less likely to go the way they did.

 Karhedron wrote:
(possibly some side-effect of the deal he struck with the Chaos Gods).

It makes sense if you think it through. What are the Chaos Gods? What are they literally made of? What do they want? How do they get their hooks into you? Therefore, what would you have to give up to make yourself immune to their corruption? Why do the Chaos Gods call the Emperor 'The Anathema'? The word 'anathema' means 'a thing offered up or cast away' and therefore 'untouchable', 'to be shunned', but what would it mean to Gods who feast on the emotional content of human souls?

The clues have been there all along.

Sanguinius actually has flaws that many seem to overlook. He can often be consumed by doubt, and be indecisive as a result. during his role as imperator of secundus, he sometimes falls into periods of melancholy as he questions their policies, and is sometimes unable to stop Guiliman and the lions arguments over the course of action to take with Curze, so I say he maybe isn't as suitable as a lot of people seem to think.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Wunzlez wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I like thinking about the World Eaters without the Butchers Nails, emphasizing compassion and martial prowess in equal measure. Blood Angels could have fallen to Khorne instead of the World Eaters and the general course of the Heresy would have been relatively unaffected.

I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy.
---
All that said, feth the Emperor; let the galaxy burn!

I've not made it all the way through the Heresy series, but was the obliteration of Monarchia the Emperor's first choice? Or had Lorgar been warned multiple times before about his peddling of religion?

Nyooooope! First warning, first consequence. Lorgar was going too slow or whatever. Emperor, as usually, overreacts. "I conquered and unified all of Terra. But no matter how much brute force I apply, I can never conquer my sons' hearts."

Why is the 41st millennium in such a mess? Cuz the Emperor's a very bad dad.

It’s worth noting he gave the citizens of monarchia an entire week to evacuate. Sure, the demolition was non-negotiable and would go ahead regardless of holdouts stating in the city, but he certainly didn’t just rock up and firebomb an inhabited capital.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Sanguinius actually has flaws that many seem to overlook. He can often be consumed by doubt, and be indecisive as a result. during his role as imperator of secundus, he sometimes falls into periods of melancholy as he questions their policies, and is sometimes unable to stop Guiliman and the lions arguments over the course of action to take with Curze, so I say he maybe isn't as suitable as a lot of people seem to think.

Well if you had to listen to The Lion and Guilliman bicker for days on end, yours probably start wishing for the end too . He’s not flawless no, but self doubt isn’t nearly as bad as say.....a crippling need to be validated for every single action. He was basically offered the same temptation as Horus and he turned it down twice. The combination of actual moral fiber and being likeable made him a good candidate. Or they give it Angron to just to watch everything go up in flames.

Sanguinius was willing to fully go over to Chaos to save his sons, just as Mortarion did. Had he literally not been knocked out of the way, it would have happened. If he had been Warmaster and faced with that decision, then yes, the Heresy could easily have happened.

The Heresy is almost guaranteed to happen regardless of who is the warmaster. The first heretics came from the word beaters and their fall was unrelated to the position. Of course anyone could fall, that is the nature of chaos and the threat it represents. Still there’s a significant difference between what drove Horus’s fall and what Sangunius was dealing with.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
I think the best candidate for Warmaster would actually have been Lorgar or Magnus. If the Emperor had actually been a good dad and taken the time to listen to the way that his sons wanted to express themselves, either one would have had the charisma to take over various worlds and unite the other primarchs. That said, only the Lion (ostensibly) has the tactical acumen to match that of Horus, even though he rarely displays it. I feel that Lorgar would have been able to unite more primarchs to his cause, and if the Emperor had made space to let him work through his angst in a healthy, productive way, he could have carried his own version of the Imperial Truth throughout the galaxy!

If the Emperor has the empathy to actually raise the primarchs right, he probably couldn’t have conquered earth much less launched the great crusade. Magnus is a bad choice because he’s always going to be a puppet to tzeentch. No amount of warning would have satisfied the 1000 Sons curiosity. I’m not sure Lorgar has the aggression to carry out the crusade. Lorgar was a schemer and those blew up in his face a lot. Plus his two minions were chaos worshipers the entire time. The Lion was a choice for warmaster but he just didn’t get along with anyone. Horus was very charismatic and could usually get on anyone’s good side. Guilliman was another viable choice. Really he’s a great candidate for Warmaster because he does better work with organization and less with actually fighting. The only minus was that he was a bit too clinical in his approach to war and he had to be right about everything.

Sanguinius would have been the best candidate for the position probably though Horus would have been even more likely to turn in that case. Big Red was the most popular primarch and there’s very few primarchs who disliked him. One wonders why he wasn’t picked.

That being said I’m all with you. LET THE GALAXY BURN.

I know I'm a few weeks late but just wanted to say - Death to the False Emperor, good buddy!

Inspired by some posts above, if the heresy had been the other way around in terms of traitors and loyalists I think it would go:

Dark Angles: tzeench cos of their secrets and lies
Blood angles: Khorne
Space wolves: khorne
Iron hands: slaneesh as the week perfection through augments
Imperial fists: undivided
Ultramarines: undivided
Salamanders: someone has to be nurgle
Raven guard: tzeench cos they are sneaky????
White scars: undivided

In the "Dornian Heresy". The Blood Angels turn to Nurgle but with a wasted vampiric vibe rather than a bloated corppulent look. No right or wrong just an interesting take that fits despite being less obvious..

Were I to flip the coin, I’d have...

Space Wolves fall to Khorne. Instead of war dogs, you have war wolves. Already prideful with the sagas and such... The World Eaters become the close combat guys that say “feth it, hold my beer.” And disregard the good advice that the new writer of the Codex Astartes.

Iron Hands fall to Nurgle. Instead of replacing the weak flesh, they embrace the rot instead. Loyalist Death Guard instead replace the weak flesh with Bionics.

Blood Angels become decadent Vampires dedicated to Slaanesh, while the Emperor’s children become the talented artisans of war.

Dark Angels go to Tzeentch, to help hide their treachery. Thousand Sons become the Psychic Investigators of the Imperium... searching for the “Hidden” instead of the Fallen.

Oddly, I see the Ultramarines become the Alpha Legion. Instead of subtly twisting events, their mastery of politics allows them to work through “legitimate” powers, while the Alpha Legion resorts to “terrorist” means to destabilize enemy organizations.

The Salmanders trade places as the tech-bastards with Iron Hands.

The sneaky Raven Guard trade places with the Night Lords. Both like jumping around, striking from the shadows.

The Word Bearers trade places with the unyielding Imperial Fists. The zealousness of the Black Templars in their pursuit of witches turns to the zealous spreading of the *Truth* of the immaterium. The WB become the heroes of the Imperium, when Lorgar sacrifices himself to defend the Emperor from the Khan (the new Horus).

I guess that leaves the Sons of Horus and White Scars trade places for... reasons? The Khan rises to take the place of Horus. Fueled by envy and resentment over a real or imagined slight, and unwilling to follow the weakling Emperor he convinces the others to join his reavers. Horus takes off after someone to Deus ex Machina away until they make a model for him to bring him back into 40k.