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I mean, if humanity did ever manage to beat chaos and xenos threats, what happens to it? A society constructed solely for a war economy for an unfathomable number of years would grind to a halt and no one would no what to do with themselves.

We're talking about humans here.

When we run out of external threats, we kill each other. Because like they said in Men in Black:

"A person can be smart. But people are stupid."

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I mean, if humanity did ever manage to beat chaos and xenos threats, what happens to it? A society constructed solely for a war economy for an unfathomable number of years would grind to a halt and no one would no what to do with themselves.

Internal collapse, continued violence, and probably civil war. Another Horus Heresy sort of thing, probably.

I would guess that without the nationalism and xenophobia and fearmongering to build itself on, the Imperial government wouldn't have enough of a leg to stand on once things don't get better. Theoretically, though, it could last a while, since information control and control of the educational systems can go a long way towards keeping a government in power.

I agree with the above, but also the core assumption that all xenos and chaos threats have somehow been defeated probably means that some other dramatic changes to the setting have occurred.

Like, if chaos is defeated, what does the warp look like at that point? What does that mean for warp travel and the (un?)importance of navigators? Is there a sudden explosion of technological advancement if tinkering with an iPhone no longer results in a world-destroying plunge into Tzeentchly corruption? Do relations with non-threatening xenos suddenly have a huge chance to improve if open-mindedness is no longer a leading cause of possession?

And with xenos gone but their stuff still floating around, the imperium could basically yoink and reverse-engineer everything from tau tech to craftworlds to whatever neat stuff is still working inside a tomb world.

If all the eldar are dead/defeated, does that imply that Ynnead is ascending to power? What happens when one of the captured suns in Comorragh goes supernova and no one is around to manipulate the webway around it?

Unification War part 2 - God is real but he hates religion and wants to exterminate it. Again.

Under what basis are you considering chaos defeated? The more humanity wars they more they fuel their enemy. Unless humanity all become pariahs they can not destroy chaos. Maybe if they had closed the eye of terror but now the great rift is here that’s a none starter.

Would be interesting though, the empire is a war machine, without that purpose I except it would collapse into civil war

Well, it'd probably fall apart instantly. If the warp is destroyed, humanity can no longer travel the stars instantly. The imperium is just gone at that point - no way to enforce anything.

I'd guess a bunch of regular garden-variety revolutions and splinterings would happen, and you'd end up with Age of Strife 2: Just Orks and Minor Xenos This Time.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it'd probably fall apart instantly. If the warp is destroyed, humanity can no longer travel the stars instantly. The imperium is just gone at that point - no way to enforce anything.

I'd guess a bunch of regular garden-variety revolutions and splinterings would happen, and you'd end up with Age of Strife 2: Just Orks and Minor Xenos This Time.

More than minor xenos I would think, tyranids, necrons and tau would likely become bigger forces in the galaxy, the orks would likely continue on par with their current level, infighting act as a natural check on them taking over the whole galaxy.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I mean, if humanity did ever manage to beat chaos and xenos threats, what happens to it? A society constructed solely for a war economy for an unfathomable number of years would grind to a halt and no one would no what to do with themselves.

Chaos is pretty much a feature and result of humanity. The Chaos Gods are the echo's of humanity's and the Emperor's projection into the warp. To "beat" that, humanity would have to completely transform first. And, well, to beat all xenos... the universe is infinite. The tyranids came from outside the known universe, if humanity expanded far enough to wipe out their source, they would just run into other threats.

40k turns into table top farmville

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I mean, if humanity did ever manage to beat chaos and xenos threats, what happens to it? A society constructed solely for a war economy for an unfathomable number of years would grind to a halt and no one would no what to do with themselves.

Most likely internal collapse and civil war. After all, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war The Imperium manages to stay together largely only in the face of external threats, and is constantly riven with internal strife even without Xenos or Chaos factors at play. It has never been a stable place and has always been extremely decentralized/balkanized.

The basic assumption is that it would degrade into warring factions as all human empires have, I don't see a reason to overturn that assumption.

Depends, really.

As ever in such things, I’ll rely on Ultramar being a clear example of exactly what The Emperor was working toward.

There are what, 500 worlds living in peace with each other. As a unified whole, they’re pretty much self sustaining.

Now imagine a pacified Galaxy. If The Imperium could take out say, Orks or Chaos entirely? That frees up ridiculous resources, allowing them to then systematically wipe out the other Xenos threats, as we saw in The Great Crusade.

But....pacified does not mean free from strife. The Tyranids and Necrons show that war can come from unexpected angles. So a large standing military would remain an absolute necessity, especially when you understand just how big the Galaxy is.

There are also far, far more habitable worlds not currently under Imperial control than are under it. That is how you then channel humanity’s wanderlust (we are largely a migratory species, historically, always expanding, always exploring etc). With New Things to do, you also need a military presence.

Sure there are no high level threats, but many habitable worlds would need taming in some form, whether or not there’s sapient life (ref Deathworlds, Knight Worlds when originally settled).

There’s also total dominance of space ways, and even, potentially, the Web Way. Those would mean a better infrastructure for shipping food and materials around. In turn, there’d be less civil strife, as the people are better fed and provided for. That means less of a foothold for subversive cults (though, arguably, more motivation for pleasure cults?).

Now this wouldn’t be an automatic thing. These are changes which would take centuries, even millennia to properly kick in. And would likely take some administrative/governmental adaptation to achieve.

And it’s that very timescale which would help. Ever greater cohesion allows for less culture shock. Think ‘frog and boiling water’ type stuff. It wouldn’t take long at all to end up with a citizenry to whom the preceding 10,000 years of unending war is mostly mythical. Add in The Imperium’s incredibly powerful propaganda machine, and you can change a wider societal outlook with relative ease.

A new thought occurred, about the military structure. With no galaxy spanning conflict to address? There’s less focus on replacing/refitting losses and damage. Which means whole new fleets can be constructed for exploration and defence. That can be an ongoing thing. When you’re the size of The Imperium, there’s no such thing as a bloated military industrial complex, whether or not there’s much of note in need of a good solid kicking,

Heck, really thinking about it? It could allow for Planetary Defence to be conducted by regiments from entirely different systems. That helps reduce nepotism amongst the aristocracy and conflicting loyalties among the troops.

Net result? There’s the solid potential for each system to have a full Battlefleet of its own, drafted in from a completely different sector, with untold regiments of Guardsman for planet side shenanigans.

The idea of "winning" over Chaos by military means is as credible as the idea of "defeating" pollution by selling more cars.
Chaos is an echo of human emotions being mirrored by the immaterium, and the Emperor on his Aeldari Throne is the biggest known projector into the warp. Half of his geneseed turned to Chaos!

Theyre probably not a echo.
Otherwise versions of them wouldnt have passed down through multiple races. Going by the mythos at the time, no one thought the enslavers were echos. Not believing in them didnt make them disappear.
IF emotion is what they feed on, then the more attention gets focused on the imperiums easy pickings.
I find it, quaint that people say half his sons turned traitor. The emp was made out of human genes, humies turn at the drop of a hat. So if the emp is made out of humie genes, and half his genesons turned, well...

Remember the Imperium spends a decent chunk of time putting down revolutions, uprisings, and rebellions. Only some of those are chaos/GSC/etc based. That’s never going to change, even if the external threads recede.

Same grim dark, different day.

Ah, but what are the causes of those popular uprisings?

Many would be linked to the hellish working conditions and lack of resources,

With the top level threats dealt with, much of The Imperium’s production capacity could be turned inward - more food for the masses, reduced work hours etc

We might even be able to factor in the demise of The Chaos Gods affecting The Warp. Back in Rogue Trader, it was the nascent Gods that through The Warp into turmoil. With far, far fewer Cultusts and general followers, the Gods might weaken, calming The Warp somewhat.

If so, travel becomes far, far safer. Not only would there be more reliable Warp travel, but with Battlefleets not required for mass engagements, escort fleets could be increased in size, deterring Piracy. So more of the resources being shipped would reach their intended target intact and on time.

Sure, we’re not talking a sudden paradise for all. Just full bellies and less punishing work regimes. The better fed and less overworked your populace, the fewer motivations there are for discontent.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With the top level threats dealt with, much of The Imperium’s production capacity could be turned inward - more food for the masses, reduced work hours etc

Wow you have way too much faith in the Imperium's governing bodies to believe that it would open up more social welfare systems

Civil war due to some theological schism, like whether the Emperor was always divine or whether the Emperor became divine through his act of sacrifice against Horus. Humanity will find some reason to fight itself.

It’s not social welfare. It’s infrastructure.

You have to feed your workforce. You have to feed your armed forces.

Now, for the former, that could be by providing them a wage. It could be providing a set ration. Either way, you need to have food coming in, yes?

Doesn’t have to be luxury. Corpse Starch and Solyent Viridians are all fair game. But you must keep them fed.

And a more peaceful Imperium is better placed to do just that. Because without your populace, you have nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
Civil war due to some theological schism, like whether the Emperor was always divine or whether the Emperor became divine through his act of sacrifice against Horus. Humanity will find some reason to fight itself.

Only when we’ve no other distractions.

Look at First World Countries. There’s plenty I object to in the modern world. No, I’m not gonna list them, as irrelevant. But I have no desire to join, support or trigger a revolution. I have my creature comforts and then some (for example, my bedding is Egyptian Cotton, and my kitchen full with gadgets.

Not everyone is quite as privileged as I, yet very, very few people are sufficiently politically agitated to actually take up arms or demonstrate violence.

With a pacified Galaxy, it’s back to exploration. New worlds to find, colonise and exploit. New distractions for the masses. New hopes that, just maybe, if they work hard and meet their quota, maybe they‘ll get a shot at being on one of those colony ships? A whole new world. Fresh air. Room to breathe. A chance at a better life.

Best of all, it’d be better organised than the original colonists - STC buildings. Drop Keeps reconfigured as instant colonies. A Regiment of Imperial Guard for security. Priests. Ad Mech. Everything a would-be colony needs to stand a better than 50% chance of succeeding.

We’re not even talking just a few hundred plucky colonists. It’s potentially billions being relocated at a time. Sure the Drop Keep thing wouldn’t work, but Imperial Citizens are no strangers to a bit of hardship.

The Imperium has that capacity already. Shipping in a whole new populace to a world denuded of humans is nothing new.

I think the big issue on what happens depends greatly on both how the Imperium wins and its general state when it wins. IF its a glorious victory at the end of a crusade that blazes through the starts then the resulting fallout from that will be very different to if they just mange to hold onto Terra and the core systems whilst fighting off and then defeating each of their foes.

In one they retain empire control and build upon the glory of victory; in the other humanity is shattered and whilst they might win the day it could leave the galaxy in confusion with multiple warring factions; worlds abandoned for generations and room for many of the smaller xenos races to finally get their head up.

A new slaanesh will be born after a millenia and IoM will become eldar to a new upstart race.

If the Imperium birthed a Chaos God I don't think excess would be the god. It would more likely latch onto the torture, torment, pain ,suffering and mindless slavery that the Imperium has. From Servitors through to the legions that slave away in Hive Cities producing for the Imperium.

The Imperium Elite are generally presented as a much much smaller population.


So unless everyone became elite, I'd wager there's more belief at the bottom than the top for the Imperium. That said, in theory, all those at every level believe in the Emperor.