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I’ve been on a Star Wars binge recently and this is a question I’ve started pondering. From a conceptual point of view, what makes better soldiers for an authoritarian regime; droids or meatbags?

This is just a casual, breezy thread about the merits of droid soldiers versus living troops and hypothetical situations etc.

You have the stormtroopers of the original trilogy, human soldiers fanatically loyal to the emperor. Obviously given the period when those movies were made this is probably the only thing George could have realistically done.

Then comes the droid armies of the prequels, all of which came before the empire chronologically but for various reasons sometimes look more advanced than the later stuff. Those droids are, for various reasons, stupid. Very stupid...but the idea of droid soldiers isn’t.

Think of it from the empires perspective; loyal troops unswayed by cries for mercy, bribery or Jedi mind tricks, and with no moral levels to worry about either. Why wouldn’t they? And if they did, what role would ‘meatbags’ still play? Officers obviously but what about regulars?

Personally, I really like the design of the KX series droids (a.k.a., K-2SO). They just seem very menacing to me, and fit the Star Wars aesthetic very well. What kind of role do these things have in the canon?

All about the societies involved.

Both sides in The CloneWars used essentially disposable, replaceable troops.

They’re not ‘real’ to the citizenry. Just particularly articulate weapons. This helps make the war more palatable.

Consider popular objection to the First World War and Vietnam etc. Don’t send our sons off to die - OK, we won’t!

Now, by the time of The Empire? Palpatine has less need of a truly efficient war machine. He’s concentrated so much power in his own hands, it’s largely unfeasible others could oppose him.

He then promoted it as patriotic duty to a war weary Galaxy. An honour to serve etc. There’s also an argument that continuing to use Clones is more staying on a war footing, rather than Galactic Security.

Droids can suffer sabotage. Get a dissident in the factory, and how many thousands could they reprogrammed with an Order 66 job? And would the citizens of the Empire even accept a Droid Army, given the atrocities of The Clone War?

I never thought of it that way...interesting points!

The more I research it, the more I’m starting to see Stormtroopers as a Gendarmerie force rather than a regular army.

but weren't the prequel droids set up to fail as part of the plan, just good enough to look like a threat but besides numbers no real danger

plus with one person controlling both sides victory or defeat could be contrived as needed

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Droids can suffer sabotage. Get a dissident in the factory, and how many thousands could they reprogrammed with an Order 66 job?

Yeah, not like those clones...

Arguably part of the control thing.

Late in the Clone Wars, Palpatine manages to Federalise the galactic banking system. This meant he owned all the debt, including those of the Separatists.

With them dependent upon Droid armies, call in those debts, and/or refuse to lend more? Yep, no more army!

The other benefit of Clones & Droids I suppose is that once it’s over, you have far, far fewer combat veterans to worry about? Droids just don’t really learn that way, and as for the Clones, destroy the training programmes.

Biggedy biggedy bong, jobs a good’un.

Hmmm, you’ve got me thinking, did Palpatine deliberately switch to normal soldiers with Stormtroopers almost as a human shield tactic? I.E. for any nascent rebellion smashing up droids, or even clones, is psychologically easier, for themselves and the public, than killing real people.

Also it stops anyone slipping in a counter-Order 66 that would take control away from him.

Lucas had supposedly originally envisaged Stormtroopers as clones, as well, but wanted it to be a secret. That's (allegedly) why they were never portrayed with helmets off in the original movies, comics, or other material.

Everyone else seems to have looked at the rather mismatched heights of the troopers in the movies and just quietly ignored this, though, and the current cannon from Rebels had the clones phased out after the end of the Clone Wars and replaced with regular humans. I would guess just because it was cheaper and easier, now that the Clones had established the idea of the Republic/Empire having its own army.

Never understood why the battledroids were programmed to be so stupid (and feel fear?), they showed in canon that they had the ability to programme droids to genius tactical/strategic level but then made all the foot troops stupider than my cat.

Agreed with the love of KX series droids, really hope they are something that they are planning on working with further in the future. The IG they used in Mando would have been much better as a KX, they look much more sinister but I am sure people would have just complained about it being an evil K2.
In canon they operate as a security droid, basic protocol/comms droid, enforcer and all round grunt. They were programmed without the prohibition on hurting meatbags that other droids were supposed to have but were not designed for a combat role.

Cost efficiency, I guess.

There’s also I suppose another (admittedly tenuous) argument that a cheap, plentiful foe (B1 model Battledroids, even B2’s) provided Palpatine with an excuse to mobilise, and more importantly normalise a large, centralised military.

Remember, prior to the Clone War, there was no standing central army. Individual planets looked out for themselves, or their neighbourhood as coalitions.

Any military meant to defend a Galaxy needs to be substantial in size. That’s not just something you can arrange on a whim. And it also needs to be seen to be proportional.

With the Seperatists able to field millions of B1 Droids? Bingo - one cast iron excuse for a large military with which to combat them. And from the ‘next step’ perspective, justify an ongoing peacetime military of the same stature, because it’s been proven such numbers are needed to keep things secure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ingtaer wrote:
Never understood why the battledroids were programmed to be so stupid (and feel fear?), they showed in canon that they had the ability to programme droids to genius tactical/strategic level but then made all the foot troops stupider than my cat.

Agreed with the love of KX series droids, really hope they are something that they are planning on working with further in the future. The IG they used in Mando would have been much better as a KX, they look much more sinister but I am sure people would have just complained about it being an evil K2.
In canon they operate as a security droid, basic protocol/comms droid, enforcer and all round grunt. They were programmed without the prohibition on hurting meatbags that other droids were supposed to have but were not designed for a combat role.

There more K-2SO coming in the Cassian Andor series

 ingtaer wrote:
Never understood why the battledroids were programmed to be so stupid (and feel fear?), they showed in canon that they had the ability to programme droids to genius tactical/strategic level but then made all the foot troops stupider than my cat.

I feel like in the movies droids are always shown with pretty limited mobility. None of the droids in film are particularly mobile, which makes them only function as an army in mass. Obviously, that's not something that holds up beyond the movies, but its always been what appears to be the intended limitation to me.

 ingtaer wrote:
Never understood why the battledroids were programmed to be so stupid (and feel fear?), they showed in canon that they had the ability to programme droids to genius tactical/strategic level but then made all the foot troops stupider than my cat.

Agreed with the love of KX series droids, really hope they are something that they are planning on working with further in the future. The IG they used in Mando would have been much better as a KX, they look much more sinister but I am sure people would have just complained about it being an evil K2.
In canon they operate as a security droid, basic protocol/comms droid, enforcer and all round grunt. They were programmed without the prohibition on hurting meatbags that other droids were supposed to have but were not designed for a combat role.

I can understand that George wanted them to be comic relief for the kids, hence why they are like army of mechanical stooges. But beyond that, it just makes no sense. They could have been ‘simple minded’ sure, but only in the sense that they’re programmed only to guard, patrol and fight, and nothing beyond that. Instead we got mechanical Moe, Larry and Curry by the thousands.

The KX is much more like it; big, imposing, armoured and menacing, with just the right appearance and ability for Star Wars (imo). I love their design; humanoid but not too human, long limbed and slightly hunched...they just scream ‘evil minion’.

And the IG is even more so, but having them as rare units is ok by me (especially considering how dangerous they are; they probably cost a fortune).

I never thought about the controlling aspect of the Empire’s army; that regular humans can easily be programmed by propaganda without the worry of them being ‘highjacked’ or ‘sabotaged’.

Having said that...I suddenly had the vision of ‘The Imitation Game’ meets Star Wars...Imperial Droids getting coded orders everyday that are reset the next day to prevent hacking. Probably a stupid idea really...

I actually quite like the design of B1s in hindsight. IDK if they needed quite so much... personality.... but I think Phantom Menace showed their value outside of the whole checkmate controller ship problem.

They're spindly, sure, but that's because they fold up well. In terms of efficiency in ease of transporting the most number of bodies and blasters to a battlefield, they're pretty optimal. They're pretty good at winning via overwhelming firepower in most scenarios. The only thing that really stands up to them is mass produced super soldiers and space wizards.

Realistically, the droid army is much better IMO than a clone one, simply because of the logistics involved. You can mass produce droids much quicker and easier than clones, they're more versatile for different planetary environments, you don't need food or other necessities ideal for soldiers, no worries about morale, bribery or diseases. Obviously hacking is an issue, as is overriding their central control system, but those are something that is so blatantly obvious that there would be sufficient systems in place to prevent it that would make it unfeasible to aim for in every conflict. At the end of the day, in an intergalatic war, you need the numbers to both hold and put pressure. The Confederacy had that in spades, and as far as I remember (not sure if this is canon anymore), but the GAR was only present at key staging areas of the Clone Wars, due to their lack of numbers, clones weren't the absolute mainstay of all the conflicts between the Republic and the Separatists. If it wasn't for Sidious deliberately balancing the forces against one another, I feel like the Confederacy would have won in a fair fight.

 LunarSol wrote:
I actually quite like the design of B1s in hindsight. IDK if they needed quite so much... personality.... but I think Phantom Menace showed their value outside of the whole checkmate controller ship problem.

They're spindly, sure, but that's because they fold up well. In terms of efficiency in ease of transporting the most number of bodies and blasters to a battlefield, they're pretty optimal. They're pretty good at winning via overwhelming firepower in most scenarios. The only thing that really stands up to them is mass produced super soldiers and space wizards.

Oh yeah, design wise they’re absolutely fine. It’s just...the stupidity...and the voices...

 Grimskul wrote:
Realistically, the droid army is much better IMO than a clone one, simply because of the logistics involved. You can mass produce droids much quicker and easier than clones, they're more versatile for different planetary environments, you don't need food or other necessities ideal for soldiers, no worries about morale, bribery or diseases. Obviously hacking is an issue, as is overriding their central control system, but those are something that is so blatantly obvious that there would be sufficient systems in place to prevent it that would make it unfeasible to aim for in every conflict. At the end of the day, in an intergalatic war, you need the numbers to both hold and put pressure. The Confederacy had that in spades, and as far as I remember (not sure if this is canon anymore), but the GAR was only present at key staging areas of the Clone Wars, due to their lack of numbers, clones weren't the absolute mainstay of all the conflicts between the Republic and the Separatists. If it wasn't for Sidious deliberately balancing the forces against one another, I feel like the Confederacy would have won in a fair fight.

This is exactly what I was thinking too. An all droid army would be a very scary prospect altogether, for the reasons you point out.

Also I always thought George missed a trick by focusing on just the droids and clones. Those wars could have been a huge free for all with all sorts of troops running about.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Also I always thought George missed a trick by focusing on just the droids and clones. Those wars could have been a huge free for all with all sorts of troops running about.

Technically speaking, George missed the entire war. The movies really only take place before it started and after it ended.

That’s where the frankly excellent Clone Wars TV series comes in. Without it, I suspect I might’ve lost interest in Star Wars by now. Blessed be Filoni!

 LunarSol wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Also I always thought George missed a trick by focusing on just the droids and clones. Those wars could have been a huge free for all with all sorts of troops running about.

Technically speaking, George missed the entire war. The movies really only take place before it started and after it ended.

Good point.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s where the frankly excellent Clone Wars TV series comes in. Without it, I suspect I might’ve lost interest in Star Wars by now. Blessed be Filoni!

My regret is it’s taken me this long to watch it.

One thing I remembered about a droid army. It would probably mean droid vehicles including space ships. AT ATs and Tie Fighters wouldn’t be the same I think...

 Grimskul wrote:
they're more versatile for different planetary environments

This is one real drawback to droids as we've seen them I wish was more prevalent. A lot of the droids we've seen, at least in film really don't handle terrain well. They're really not fast or particularly mobile outside of flat surfaces. I always felt that was intentional, though there's definitely exceptions from games and television.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
they're more versatile for different planetary environments

This is one real drawback to droids as we've seen them I wish was more prevalent. A lot of the droids we've seen, at least in film really don't handle terrain well. They're really not fast or particularly mobile outside of flat surfaces. I always felt that was intentional, though there's definitely exceptions from games and television.

Yeah, unfortunately, with the precedent set at Naboo in the first movie and AoTC, pitched battles between Clones and Droids for some reason predominantly involve some Napoleonic Wars style of combat where you have them charging at each other across a flat plane, blasters ablaze.

I feel like they rectified that partially in Revenge of the Sith though, since beyond droidekas, they show different designs meant for difficult terrain, like crab droids for climbing stuff like mountainous terrain in Utapau and the amphibious droid tanks during the attack on Kashykk.

 LunarSol wrote:
I actually quite like the design of B1s in hindsight. IDK if they needed quite so much... personality.... but I think Phantom Menace showed their value outside of the whole checkmate controller ship problem..

The controller ship was done away with after Naboo, which is why the droids have more personality in the Clone Wars and Ep3.

There’s also the argument that The Separatists really didn’t expect any kind of military resistance. Like, at all.

As far as they were concerned, all they really needed were sufficient numbers to demoralise a given planet’s defence force. Given the Republic had known peace for a long old time, such defence forces were predominantly (but not universally) geared to stave off and chin Pirates - small, not terribly well armed foes.

When you suddenly have say, 20,000 battle droids arrive in your capital? What can you really do about it?

Indeed it’s strongly arguable that the Separatists simply were not expecting an actual war. That the Republic got so arsey about systems wanting to go their separate ways is always the one thing that hasn’t been that well described in terms of Palpatine’s manipulations.

I mean, let’s consider the opening crawls for Ep 1 & 2.

Episode 1 wrote: Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.
While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict....

OK, wee bit of strife. Seemingly more than The Republic has seen in a while. But hardly a reason for war.

Skip forward 10 or so years?

Episode 2 wrote: There is unrest in the Galactic Senate. Several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic.
This Separatist movement, under the leadership of the mysterious Count Dooku, has made it difficult for the limited number of Jedi Knights to maintain peace and order in the galaxy.
Senator Amidala, the former Queen of Naboo, is returning to the Galactic Senate to vote on the critical issue of creating an ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC to assist the overwhelmed Jedi....

I mean.....that escalated quickly, no?

After all....so what? You’re a democracy, aren’t you? What’s the big deal with systems wanting a different form of government? Isn’t getting the arse about it and demanding they stay ‘loyal’ kind of non-democratic?

How the heck did Palpatine swing that? Because that was the core trigger for his rise to Unlimited Power. His excuse for founding a colossal military. His excuse for naming himself Emperor. And Padme has a bloody cheek harping on about the death of democracy. She had her arse in her hands the whole time over the Separatist movement.

Y’know, that’s a thread unto itself.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the argument that The Separatists really didn’t expect any kind of military resistance. Like, at all.

The leader of the Seperatists was also the guy who set up the creation of the clone army.

He expected military resistance. The droids needed to be a credible threat, but not an overwhelming one.

Oh Sidious and Dooku did, but they were collectively playing both sides.

I’m talking the Techno Union, Trade Federation et al.

I think humans have a big advantages that can be very useful
1: Durability, Its been shown droids cannot take much punishment and continue going, yeah droids can theoretically survive infinite punishment, but are going to go down pretty fast.
Humans can survive shots and keep going if the shot. Troopers that do go down can get up with proper care, a droid the goes down, likely stay downs
2: Creative thinking, there is a reason not every B1 battle droid had the mind of a tactical droid, its expensive, but in theory, every trooper can have that same mind.
3: Ability to adapt to enviroments. Even more than rough terrain, a droid is unlikely to squeeze through the vents.

A new hostile galactic power rising up in the middle of Republic space would be a cause for concern.

Another thought occurs as to why B1 Battle Droids.

I’ll refer to Obi-Wan’s chat with Spud in the cafe from Trainspotting, where they both face a job interview to keep their state benefits.

Obi-Wanif they think you’re not trying, you’re in trouble. First hint of that, they’ll be on to the DSS ‘this bloke isn’t trying’ and your Giro is finished, right?

SpudRight

Obi-WanBut try too hard?

SpudAnd you might get the job!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
After all....so what? You’re a democracy, aren’t you? What’s the big deal with systems wanting a different form of government? Isn’t getting the arse about it and demanding they stay ‘loyal’ kind of non-democratic?

There’s this little thing in 1860’s America that explains that...

Whichever the jedi use. They're the authoritarians...

Ooooh! Ooooh!

Another Canon reason for organic troops over Droids.

Droids need to be programmed. Which means physical data. Written instructions and knowledge, all stored in their memory.

That includes orders, security procedures, IFF, base locations and layouts. And because you need them to react and remember stuff, you can’t make that Read Only.

That’s....a lot of sensitive military information. Just walking around. And highly vulnerable to ion blasts.

Ion blasts which disable the Droid entirely. Leaving them in the hands of a wily enemy, who almost certainly has some capacity to retrieve that info.

Can’t do that with an organic soldier - especially not when the Jedi are all but extinct. Sure, you can torture it out of them - but that takes a strong stomach and a lack of scruples. Even then you’re far from guaranteed to get accurate information.

Sure, you could harden them against Ion weapons - except, that’s further expense. Given they didn’t even provide that for Star Destroyers, seemingly prohibitively expensive.

You could also set their memory to automatically wipe if hit by Ion weapons (perhaps a simple internal trigger, which is set off by a lack of power flow). Except, that means a wily opponent need only set off a couple of Ion bombs, and that’s you stuck with a bunch of idiot clankers needing reprogramming.

Worse? I could shoot up a small patrol using Ion Weapons, slice them and have literal eyes and ears in your base, folks watching you poop.

Droids. They just ain’t practical beyond being cheap!