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Assume the Traitor Legions actually conquer Terra and topple the Emperor. What happens next?

I assume there will be some infighting between the various Chaos factions. But do any of them have actual plans for the future of humankind? Or do they just want an orgy of destruction and misery for the glory of their respective gods?

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I guess it depends on who you are talking about. The Daemon Primarchs might have ambitions beyond victory over the false emperor, but I don't think the heretic Astartes do.

I recall from Lords of Silence, where the leader of the chaos warband, Vorx, says that all he wants to do is fight, it is what he was created to do, and nothing would give him more satisfaction than fighting alongside his Primarch. I suspect that this is a fairly typical attitude.

It would honestly depend on which legion is the top dog at the end.

Immediately post-Imperium the traitor legions will all turn on each other, from there...

Word Bearers would just make a sort of photo-negative Imperium. Highly religious, incredibly repressive, temples and churches everywhere.

Iron Warriors are just going to be constantly besieging each other, it'll literally be only war.

I'm not sure the Black Legion has any plan, it seems like they're the most focused on just taking down the Imperium

I don't think any of the rest have much of a coherent plan either, though there are some individuals in each legion that have a sort of rose-tinted nostalgia for the pre-Heresy days who might want to try to build something.

So many different viewpoints to consider and from different angles. Some live for the carnage of war, some have given themselves over to the whim of a greater power, others believe that they were wronged and have a right to take what they see as rightfully theirs. I vaguely remember one point of view from the Night Lords trilogy that they believed they had the right to destroy the Imperium since it was their hard work and their blood that went into forging it and then they were unfairly reprimanded for doing the exact thing that had carried the emperor through the great crusade to begin with. It all depends on the legion and to a finer extent even the warband as different warbands can have conflicting ideologies even from the same legion.

The Traitor Legions and the forces of Chaos in general can be seen as an unstable coalition of warbands and armies all united by a common enemy, but with varied agenda and ideals that will turn against one another the very moment they triumph (and often well before if faced with setbacks or left on their own).

Alpha Legion wanted to see mankind destroyed, per the Siege of Terra books. Book 2 I believe.

The never ending twirl of the infinite moustache.

Also, tell their step dad they're grown up and dont need him anymore!

usmcmidn wrote:
Alpha Legion wanted to see mankind destroyed, per the Siege of Terra books. Book 2 I believe.

This raises more questions than it answers. Destroy mankind? What exactly is their alternative to mankind?


Frankly I think the lore about the Imperium and the Traitor Legions took a wrong turn in its very early days, and it's now impossible to course-correct. If the 40k universe were less relentlessly grimdark (not noblebright, but let's say nobledark), it could be far more interesting and have more nuance. Picture this: an Emperor who actually wants to establish diplomatic relations with other races (such as the Eldar) against bigger threats. The Traitor Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos, oppose this: "No! The other races are our enemies! Mankind, and only mankind, has a right to rule the stars! The Emperor is weak and a traitor to the human race!" Hence, the Horus Heresy. After the Heresy, the Imperium still tries diplomacy with other races, but the traitors undermine their attempts via false-flag operations. And so, 10,000 years later, the Imperium still stands alone against the rest of the galaxy. And there are some elements within the Imperium that start to see eye to eye with the Traitor Primarchs, leading them down the path of corruption. Instead of having fascists vs. Chaotic Evil, you have pragmatists vs. fascists.

Sadly there are far too many years of lore to go back on this.

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-Guardsman- wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Alpha Legion wanted to see mankind destroyed, per the Siege of Terra books. Book 2 I believe.

This raises more questions than it answers. Destroy mankind? What exactly is their alternative to mankind?


Frankly I think the lore about the Imperium and the Traitor Legions took a wrong turn in its very early days, and it's now impossible to course-correct. If the 40k universe were less relentlessly grimdark (not noblebright, but let's say nobledark), it could be far more interesting and have more nuance. Picture this: an Emperor who actually wants to establish diplomatic relations with other races (such as the Eldar) against bigger threats. The Traitor Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos, oppose this: "No! The other races are our enemies! Mankind, and only mankind, has a right to rule the stars! The Emperor is weak and a traitor to the human race!" Hence, the Horus Heresy. After the Heresy, the Imperium still tries diplomacy with other races, but the traitors undermine their attempts via false-flag operations. And so, 10,000 years later, the Imperium still stands alone against the rest of the galaxy. And there are some elements within the Imperium that start to see eye to eye with the Traitor Primarchs, leading them down the path of corruption. Instead of having fascists vs. Chaotic Evil, you have pragmatists vs. fascists.

Sadly there are far too many years of lore to go back on this.

I think this is really only an issue if you are looking to 40k as a narrative, rather than a setting. I'm very happy to go on the record as: fascism bad (bold stance, I know). I'm not rooting for the Imperium, but I can root for a civilian toiling away in a habblock somewhere to enlist in the PDF and emerge victorious from a Tyranid invasion (although if that same civilian is himself a devoted member of the Imperial Planetary Party then that's quite a few points against him). Listening to interviews with the creative team behind 40k, both the old guard and the new, they all repeatedly make the point that Warhammer 40,000 is a dystopia and was always meant to be.

For my own part, I like to make jokes about rooting for Chaos but I'm not actually rooting for anyone. If your soul ends up in the Warp after you die anyway, does it really matter what side you back while you're alive? What I think makes the traitor legions so interesting is that they are basically lost children. All space marines are essentially children - they accept the Imperial Truth with a children's naivete, and reject it with the kind of indignity that only children can muster. So you have a bunch of different ideologies competing - some, like Honsou, still believe in the unifying vision of Horus, of an empire united by chaos - that's obviously a delusion, but it's about the same level as believing that the Imperium could possibly recover from where it is right now. Abaddon wants first to quench his hate and destroy, destroy, destroy, but his patrons won't ever let him get that far, because that would mean an end to their game. I think Abaddon is smart enough to realize this, but too angry to care, or believes that somehow he'll find a way to outsmart the gods themselves.

It's good fun to play in the setting for that reason. I love these sorts of speculative threads. I desperately hope that Games Workshop never ever advances the plot to a point where we find out what happens.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Assume the Traitor Legions actually conquer Terra and topple the Emperor. What happens next?

I assume there will be some infighting between the various Chaos factions. But do any of them have actual plans for the future of humankind? Or do they just want an orgy of destruction and misery for the glory of their respective gods?

.

For many, Hate is all they have, literally it defines their existence, they have willingly damned themselves to pursue that hatred, the idea of anything "after" is irrelevant.

When it comes to the actual dedicated Cult legions, they still have their gods to serve and powers to worship, but for the likes of the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc, really their world is entirely defined by the Long War, and goals beyond toppling the corpse god don't really compute, at least in any meaningful articulated way. At that point they'll be unleashed upon the universe to do as they please, but really generally don't have any coherent organized goals/political philosophies/conquest plans/etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
Assume the Traitor Legions actually conquer Terra and topple the Emperor. What happens next?

I assume there will be some infighting between the various Chaos factions. But do any of them have actual plans for the future of humankind? Or do they just want an orgy of destruction and misery for the glory of their respective gods?

.

For many, Hate is all they have, literally it defines their existence, they have willingly damned themselves to pursue that hatred, the idea of anything "after" is irrelevant.

When it comes to the actual dedicated Cult legions, they still have their gods to serve and powers to worship, but for the likes of the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc, really their world is entirely defined by the Long War, and goals beyond toppling the corpse god don't really compute, at least in any meaningful articulated way. At that point they'll be unleashed upon the universe to do as they please, but really generally don't have any coherent organized goals/political philosophies/conquest plans/etc.

And given the nature of Chaos itself and how they threw in their lot with them, it thematically makes sense they don't really have a coherent plan thought up of what happens after if they actually succeed. They're attacking the Imperium out of nothing but spite at this point, so it's not surprising they don't really have a big picture idea of what their long-term goal is.

-Guardsman- wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Alpha Legion wanted to see mankind destroyed, per the Siege of Terra books. Book 2 I believe.

This raises more questions than it answers. Destroy mankind? What exactly is their alternative to mankind?


Frankly I think the lore about the Imperium and the Traitor Legions took a wrong turn in its very early days, and it's now impossible to course-correct. If the 40k universe were less relentlessly grimdark (not noblebright, but let's say nobledark), it could be far more interesting and have more nuance. Picture this: an Emperor who actually wants to establish diplomatic relations with other races (such as the Eldar) against bigger threats. The Traitor Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos, oppose this: "No! The other races are our enemies! Mankind, and only mankind, has a right to rule the stars! The Emperor is weak and a traitor to the human race!" Hence, the Horus Heresy. After the Heresy, the Imperium still tries diplomacy with other races, but the traitors undermine their attempts via false-flag operations. And so, 10,000 years later, the Imperium still stands alone against the rest of the galaxy. And there are some elements within the Imperium that start to see eye to eye with the Traitor Primarchs, leading them down the path of corruption. Instead of having fascists vs. Chaotic Evil, you have pragmatists vs. fascists.

Sadly there are far too many years of lore to go back on this.

.

Alpha Legion wanted mankind killed off. Everyone dead. Apparently it had something to do with chaos inevitably failing and phasing itself out of existence.

It's possible that a smaller Imperium could be held together by the Black Legion and/or Word Bearers, but by and large, the coalition forged by Abaddon would mostly fall apart. The god-specific legions and bands all have very different agendas and would lash out in all directions, including each other. The Iron Warriors could be hired by different factions for sieging, but they would probably just do whatever they wanted. The Night Lords would continue terrorizing people and who knows what the Alpha Legion would do. One thing for certain is that the warp would probably much more impactful upon the materium and there would be many more daemon worlds.

Step 1: Kill the Emperor
Step 2: ......
Step 3: Profit

Nothing. And this is part of the crux of the Heresy. Whereas Primarchs like Guilliman embraced the fact that one day there would be no war, and that Astartes would have to pick up other roles, people like Horus were unable to accept that reality. He feared a future where Astartes no longer had a role in the Imperium, and he rebelled.

The Traitor legions have no real goal other then fighting, because war is all they know. On an individual level, they may have creeds or ideals that they fight for. The Chaos cult astartes basically do their gods' bidding. But the unaligned traitors are essentially just thugs and pirates. If they had no one else in the galaxy to fight, they would just fight each other.

The Word Bearers are most likely thrilled with the current state of the galaxy. Unending war and misery does nothing but fuel the Pantheon.

If the Imperium ever ended up weak enough to fall they'd probably end up trying to make the remnants into an Empire devoted to the worship of Chaos and defend it's human resource against the various threats including the less focused Chaos forces.

Best case for the survival of humanity if Terra fell= Word Bearers?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nothing. And this is part of the crux of the Heresy. Whereas Primarchs like Guilliman embraced the fact that one day there would be no war, and that Astartes would have to pick up other roles, people like Horus were unable to accept that reality. He feared a future where Astartes no longer had a role in the Imperium, and he rebelled.

The Traitor legions have no real goal other then fighting, because war is all they know. On an individual level, they may have creeds or ideals that they fight for. The Chaos cult astartes basically do their gods' bidding. But the unaligned traitors are essentially just thugs and pirates. If they had no one else in the galaxy to fight, they would just fight each other.

Magnus, like Guilliman, also believed eventually the Astartes' use as soldiers would be made obsolete by peacetime and encouraged his sons to find their own interests outside of war to take on a new career or at least pastime outside of warfare so they could settle in to civilian life.

Perturabo also would have much preferred to make a living as an artist, but he admittedly couldn't give a gak what the Astartes themselves had to do.

And to be fair to Horus, it was the posthumans being forgotten and discarded as well as the Imperium he created being handed to mortal High Lords that caused him to rebel. He wanted to guide humanity, but not to be beholden to it. And I doubt even Guilliman would have been so accepting of the Emperor disposing of the Astartes and locking him and his brothers into a basement.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Assume the Traitor Legions actually conquer Terra and topple the Emperor. What happens next?

I assume there will be some infighting between the various Chaos factions. But do any of them have actual plans for the future of humankind? Or do they just want an orgy of destruction and misery for the glory of their respective gods?

.

Are you referring to the 4 chaos gods or the chaos legions? Because the 4 chaos gods are involved in the great eternal game battling each other. It won't ever end because it seems unlikely one god will ever come out on top permanently. And all the legions whose primarchs have sworn allegence to various chaos gods will be extensions of that goal. So, like Angron is an extension of Khorne's will, so he just wants to bathe the galaxy in blood and battle, because Khorne wants to dominate the other 3 chaos gods. And so on and so forth for the other chaos gods as well.

So in that respect, defeating the emperor is not even their sole over riding goal.