Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Australia is outlawing nicotine for vaping....

I rarely see a smoker anymore. The scientific evidence that vaping is so much less harmful than cigarettes is irrefutable.

The smokers I know have all moved to vaping. Why would any rational government move to such a position?

Please enlighten me as I cannot fathom this position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way... A packet of cigarettes is about 40-50 dollars now... I hope tax is not the reason...

Well vapers were made to try and help stop people smoking. However at some point people started using and then marketing and selling it as a replacement hobby. Not as an aid toward stopping but a straight up swap.

At that point if you get rid of the nicotine you're removing the damaging and addictive chemical element that you were hoping vaping was going to remove from the population in the first place. So instead of pushing to get people to stop vaping, you just remove the harmful chemical in the first place.

I agree totally if you deem Nicotine as a harmful substance then outlaw it totally. To outlaw the lesser of to evils is madness in my book.

Not really. If you outlaw something like smoking then you can very easily get a backlash effect much like how when the USA tried to outlaw alcohol. Resulting in increased use just because you have made it illegal.


So an easier approach is to do what has happened with smoking, keep it perfectly legal, just restrict it and make it more and more socially unacceptable. By raising prices; by restricting it (not near food, not inside etc...); by making it "dirty" and unappealing in public etc.. you steadily erode the chances of new generations picking it up at the same time as discouraging those who are current smokers.

Vaping has appeared as a stand in, however vaping doesn't have to have nicotine in it to be a social replacement for smoking. So removing the harmful element is a positive move. As you erode the popularity of regular smoking the nicotine exposure to the population continually reduces; whilst removing it entirely from vaping means that you don't just end up replacing A for B and ending up with the same problems. Especially since nicotine is known to be addictive and many of the big smoking firms are now investing heavily into vaping - the last thing you want is them pushing nicotine levels steadily up in vaping to increase the addictive nature and pleasure/familiarity of the experience to regular smokers.

As a smoker, I cannot stand those that vape.

Nothing against the technology itself. But some of those who use it.

See, I have to smoke outside the pub. And in doing so, I try not to stand or sit somewhere that my filthy exhalations will bother others. Can be tricky when the wind is changeable of course, but I at least make the effort, and will move if some poor sod just got a faceful.

Vapers? Especially those man bunned Words I Cannot Use On Dakka? With their ridiculous box vapes? No such consideration. Indeed they seem to take pride of producing a fog of vapour. A fog which engulfs all in its path. Especially in the modern day. Who knows what other nasties might be lurking in that candy floss cloud?

Also? Competitive Vaping is a thing. I apologise for the impending dip in your IQ from watching the following video.




Bunch. Of. Sad. Posers.

I acknowledge your point of view. The problem is that people who are addicted to nicotine will just go back to smoking. Children bucking authority will still smoke regardless of ease of access.

While I understand the what you are saying, nicotine addicts are still going to move to their drug of choice. People are lazy and they will just move to the most convenient and easy option. Cigarettes contain far more harmful substances than nicotine which is widely known. Prohibition proved that people will seek their vise regardless of law enforcement measures.

Australia has experienced a huge upsurge in the illegal importation of illicit tobacco over the time we have increased our taxation in a effort to force people to quit.

At best Australia has opened the avenues to another illegal avenue for profit at the expense of an addicted market.

At worst Australia has brought back huge taxation revenue from 40-50 dollars a packet. The impact of COVID-19 has been fierce to the economy.

I remain sceptical at this point. This is not the way forward, regulation would be a better option over Prohibition.

(I disclose that I am not a smoker and however I have friend that were previous smokers and I am appalled by this decision because I care for their welfare)

 Overread wrote:
Well vapers were made to try and help stop people smoking. However at some point people started using and then marketing and selling it as a replacement hobby. Not as an aid toward stopping but a straight up swap.

At that point if you get rid of the nicotine you're removing the damaging and addictive chemical element that you were hoping vaping was going to remove from the population in the first place. So instead of pushing to get people to stop vaping, you just remove the harmful chemical in the first place.

still not convinced vape juice isnt just the stuff from those plug in air fresheners with a dash of fruit squash to taste

and totally with doc on the poser factor seeing most of them really should have got a fleshlight instead

I think it might be in part because vaping might be the offramp for some smokers, but it can also be an onramp for others that leads into smoking. Especially younger generations seem to start vaping because it is 'cool', but they are then at risk to move on. Here in the Netherlands, they are going to ban vaping flavors to reduce the attractiveness of it.

My wife vaped for a while, but she eventually deemed keeping the silly thing charged up and working was more difficult than simply striking up a lighter on a cigarette... sigh... i was thoroughly enjoying the massive savings, as she smoked a premium brand at $8+ a pack on a daily basis.

In any case, she was using a lower nicotine and had for a while went to no nicotine. If the goal of vaping was to help smokers, why doesn't the government phase in a nicotine phase out approach to help? Maybe for the next year only allow XX% in vape products and then the next year YY% until finally going to 0% - what a great idea that would be IMHO.

There are lots of odd things being attempted to reduce smoking.

In the EU, minimum packet sizes.

Used to be you could get Straights in packs of 10 or 20. Rolling Baccy (my preference) in 12.5g, 25g and 50g.

However, now Straights only come in 20’s, and Baccy in 30g and 50g. Menthols and I think flavoured baccy are outright banned.


In theory, this is to raise the price out the reach of kids, I think.

But....giving up smoking is hard. Sometimes, you just need a tab to tide you over. Except now.....I’m buying a significant amount of tobacco just for one smoke. And what do you reckon is gonna happen to the rest of it?

Better they just outright banned it.

Yeah, banning cigarettes when many of our states are legalizing pot... oh boy...

I think banning would just turn it over to the criminal aspect, just like any other attempt throughout history to ban substances that people use.

My wife smokes only menthols and has always said if they did not have menthols she would not smoke - i think if the banned menthol in cigarettes, she would not quit, but get herself used to standards in short time. Yes, it is so hard to quit and that is why weaning down nicotine over a span of years in these products is the rational thing to do.

@ Doc, dont forget our islands awesome policy of hiding smoking products in shops lest the expensive boxes stamped with "this gak might do all manner of harm" tempts the young uns

good job wee Turnip had Superman telling me smoking was bad to mostly stop from starting

 MDSW wrote:
Yeah, banning cigarettes when many of our states are legalizing pot... oh boy...

I think banning would just turn it over to the criminal aspect, just like any other attempt throughout history to ban substances that people use.

My wife smokes only menthols and has always said if they did not have menthols she would not smoke - i think if the banned menthol in cigarettes, she would not quit, but get herself used to standards in short time. Yes, it is so hard to quit and that is why weaning down nicotine over a span of years in these products is the rational thing to do.

My gf stopped smoking and switched to a vape. When they banned flavored vapes-- she basically stopped vaping. I think its ease of availability

In the city my neighborhood has an odd ban of no liquor stores - you have to drive 8 blocks - parallel park and then they only sell beer. After moving to the condo here I've drank a handful of times all year.

Just smoke a damn cigarette. Or a cigar.

Vaping is just as bad, if not worse, than cigarettes. You've still got tons of nasty chemicals you really shouldn't be inhaling.

The only benefit to vaping is you don't smell like a festering boil.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
@ Doc, dont forget our islands awesome policy of hiding smoking products in shops lest the expensive boxes stamped with "this gak might do all manner of harm" tempts the young uns

To look at this from a different angle, mightn't hiding the products away potentially help those who are trying to quit by removing a visual trigger of their addiction?

Like how you're queuing up and then you see that pack of delicious jelly tots sitting there next to the till and now you crave that sugary goodness. Remove the visual stimulus and that feeling may not be triggered.

maybe although having never been addicted i cant say if £11 or so counts as an impulse purchase, also jelly tots are far too chemical tasting these days so i stick to jaffa cakes which are practically fruit

Eh, my only real gripe with vaping is how annoying some of the culture around it is, but I don't see that as a reason to ban it for the rest. Just because some man bun vaping guy makes the room reek of cinnamon rolls doesn't mean you should punish the folks who use it as a legitimate path to quitting smoking. I've known both types and I'm willing to put up with the former to help the latter, especially since you can usually just tell the former to go outside. I do see a worrying increase in "kids" doing it, but at a certain point we all do stupid stuff as kids. Give them the info to make an informed choice, make it harder to get until they reach an age that somewhat more prepared to make that choice, and if they're that determined to do it then they've accepted the cost of doing so. The side effect of a free society is the freedom to make dumb decisions, simple as.

I worry banning nicotine in their vape packs will lead to something similar to the Chinese illegal Marijuana vapes that caused that rash of issues in the USA (and I'd assume elsewhere, not that our news cares about other countries) if you can't get the nicotine legally you'll get it illegally from the guy who has 0 safety oversight and accountability. So now instead of saving people from nicotine you're probably killing just as many through faulty illegal nicotine packs. Pretty similar to how Prohibition led to bathtub gin that made you go blind or was basically just poison with some flavor to it. I'd rather something be legal with oversight than banned and out of control. Most people will take the easy option, whatever it is. Make the option legal and easy enough to get at the corner store and you'll probably save more people than an outright ban. Not just due to improved safety margins, but to prevent the idiots who will want to do something just because you told them not to.

Theres a politician in Hawaii who's been attempting to raise the legal smoking age to 100 years old.
It sounds ridiculous enough to be in a Mike Judge film, but it is no joke.

If I remember correctly, they tried to raise the smoking age from 18 to 21 here in Arizona some years ago.

Not sure if that would ever make a difference anyways.

As a younger kid who was interested in smoking, it wasn't very difficult to acquire it through older friends.

The way I see it - I know that its not healthy for me, but its my choice. Besides that, I completely agree with Mad Doc Grotsnik - if you're smoking in a public place, put it out or move away if you're around non-smokers.
If people are eating, I make sure to move very, very far away.
Even as a smoker, I really hate it when people smoke cigarettes near me if I'm eating food. That sucks.

This seems crazy to me.
Yes OK nicotine isn't good for you, but if you're addicted and need the nicotine then vaping is much better for you than smoking a cigerette full of other horrible compounds!
Especially as many people who smoke baccy don't even use filters.

I'm totally behind this and salute the Australian government even if I couldn't name their PM if my life depended on it.

It's been proven that big corporations will do anything whatsoever to increase profits without a thought to the harm it causes people as individuals and society as a whole. Tobacco has been marketed to kids, in sneaky ways, until it was stomped on by regulations. Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

Corporations won't act responsibly on their own. American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem. Documented fact. None of the people who did this were ever prosecuted.

Corporations will try to addict people to products that make them profit no matter how harmful they are if allowed to.

Some people will say it's people's choice to use the products. Let's see, on one side we have advertising departments filled with college educated people with degrees in psychology, writing, art, etc, scheming how to get normal people addicted to profitable products.

On the other side we have people who work for a living, who may not have degrees in psychology to see what's being pulled on them, also kids, etc. being targeted by these room fulls of educated experts.

I'm completely cool with this move and respect the Aussie government for it. If people need nicotine fluid to get off tobacco they can be prescribed it, Australia has a healthcare system.

As to vaping, it doesn't bother me as much as smoking does, but the worst thing is when you get smokers and vapers crowded around a door outside and get this cloud of smoke and vape mixed together. It's basically exactly like smog, a mix of smoke and fog and is worse than the sum of its parts.

Believe me I've had to pass thru clouds of that on occasion and it's quite noxious.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem.

I like how the only country you emphasize and attack is USA.

Yeah. Its just us. Nobody else. For sure.

 FragTheCommissar wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem.

I like how the only country you emphasize and attack is USA.

Yeah. Its just us. Nobody else. For sure.

well where you lead we follow and whilst im not entirely sure it wasnt staged the sight of 'sturdy' parents saving their not so little darlings from healthy school meals as part of a telly documentary with emergency chip rations was depressingly unsurprising

 Kroem wrote:
This seems crazy to me.
Yes OK nicotine isn't good for you, but if you're addicted and need the nicotine then vaping is much better for you than smoking a cigerette full of other horrible compounds!
Especially as many people who smoke baccy don't even use filters.

So the sale of Nicotine E-Liquid was already banned and what this has done is specifically ban the import. If you're trying to quit you can still get it on prescription, and it's only a temporary ban (12 months) while they instigate the health issues around it.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 FragTheCommissar wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem.

I like how the only country you emphasize and attack is USA.

Yeah. Its just us. Nobody else. For sure.

well where you lead we follow and whilst im not entirely sure it wasnt staged the sight of 'sturdy' parents saving their not so little darlings from healthy school meals as part of a telly documentary with emergency chip rations was depressingly unsurprising

I understand that we have health issue problems in the US.
The point I was making is that we arent the only country with obesity problems and scheisty automobile manufacturers.

If you believe that corruption in big corporations and politics is limited to my country, you're fooling yourself.

The biggest recall scandal thats happened in my country was the Volkswagon emissions cheat. They aren't an American manufacturer.

Besides that, Ive always grown up seeing other countries show disdain and judgement towards USA, as if were supposed to be an honestly perfect utopian leader.

Bad people will be found in places of power across all lands.
Just because were considered a leading nation doesn't actually make us invulnerable to aspects of corruption.

Edit: I realize we're already posting in the off topic section of the forum but I don't mean to steer the thread too far off course from the original topic at heart. If anybody wants to continue this discussion we should probably start a new thread out of respect for the original poster.

 FragTheCommissar wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem.

I like how the only country you emphasize and attack is USA.

Yeah. Its just us. Nobody else. For sure.

Guess you never saw some of the things I've said about china. In fact I've pretty much said that chine is the worst major country on earth for human rights violations and authoritarianism today. I also have some dim views of saudi arabia, iran, etc.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 FragTheCommissar wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Corporations push fatty, sugary products on kids and look at what it's done to the health of america's youth.

American car makers knowingly let dangerous cars that could explode easily o the roads because paying a few lawsuits was cheaper than fixing the problem.

I like how the only country you emphasize and attack is USA.

Yeah. Its just us. Nobody else. For sure.

Guess you never saw some of the things I've said about china. I also have some dim views of saudi arabia.

Fair enough. There are probably some views about those places that we would agree on. I think I was being overly sensitive about the USA comments in retrospect. I just have a lot of pride for America.

Vapes are a trend that made everyone look like a hipster, and it REALLY took off with the younger crowd. Tons of highschool kids Vape in my town, and they do it openly. I think for every middle-age person that vaping helps get off cigarettes, there is a youngster it is just a gateway for.

To make matters even worse, there seems to be no taboo about underage use. The US has a minimum age of 21 for smoking or nicotine vaping, but around here stores still brazenly sell it to kids that are NOWHERE near 21. I stopped into the local liquor store for a bottle of wine last month. My nephew came in behind me (16) and didn't notice me. He was driving a freaking moped. He went right up to the counter and asked for Vape juice. The clerk seriously didn't even flinch, and sold him some Naked 100.

As an employer it's been rough. My state has smoke-free laws inside businesses. This prevents smokers, but they overlooked vapers. This was supposed to be amended to include vapers a few months ago, but covid19 happened. I own a restaurant, and the employees that vape do it openly WHILE WORKING. I had to have an argument with one guy that he still can't legally do it WHILE MAKING FOOD. It's gotten to the point I've had to enforce a blue law, in that employers can NOT allow underage employees smoke breaks while on the clock. I can tell a couple of my under-21 vapers really start getting nicotine fits if they work longer than 4 hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FragTheCommissar wrote:
Theres a politician in Hawaii who's been attempting to raise the legal smoking age to 100 years old.
It sounds ridiculous enough to be in a Mike Judge film, but it is no joke.

If I remember correctly, they tried to raise the smoking age from 18 to 21 here in Arizona some years ago.

Not sure if that would ever make a difference anyways.

.

LOL, it is 21 in all the US now. As of March 20th.

One proposed Law I can get behind: Outlaw vaping Machines that look like anything other than a vaping machine. They make them so they look like pens, USB drives, erasers, charm bracelets, etc. What demographic do you know of that would want to hide their nicotine habit?

 cuda1179 wrote:

LOL, it is 21 in all the US now. As of March 20th.

One proposed Law I can get behind: Outlaw vaping Machines that look like anything other than a vaping machine. They make them so they look like pens, USB drives, erasers, charm bracelets, etc. What demographic do you know of that would want to hide their nicotine habit?

Well I don't have kids and I am well above the age, so it really never caught my attention.

Outlawing a vape pen that looks like a household object is ridiculous.
I don't vape and have no intention to start, I just want to point out that thats a pretty overkill approach and I don't see the average politician being a big enough wackjob to try passing that sort of law.

Also, many of them look like pens by default. Thats why people call them vape pens. I've never heard anybody call a vape pen a "vaping machine" in any sort of normal conversation.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'm totally behind this and salute the Australian government even if I couldn't name their PM if my life depended on it.

That's ok, neither could most of us. We've had 7 in the last 20 years. It got so bad that trauma doctors no longer used " Who is the current prime minister?" as a memory test because even they couldn't keep up.