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So now we know..

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

So we know power armour of all colours and spikes is getting 2 wounds. It seems 1W on a T4 3+ model is worth a bout 3pts so we can begin to speculate.
Obviously we don't have the full picture and the new marine codex is about to drop but we can sort of see how this particularly is crumbling lets not kid ourselves. (The disparity between necron and SM indomitus level of power is pretty cringy and this is very likely a theme we will see in the codexes.. sadly)

Does this solve a lot of the problems for the various chaos players?
Personally I find the idea of 2W berserkers, death-guard plague marines terrifying currently. No idea what my army would need in order to fight against that.

What would your faction need in order to compete in the world of a 18pt 2W tac marine?

As a CWE player I have absolutely no idea how we could compete without getting something obnoxious in the realms of re-roling saves left right and centre(maybe if advancing plus psychic power?)
2W T3 aspects are unlikely going to save us unless we literally get all of our gear and other stats turned up to 20. Its no good being 2W if you hit like a wet tissue.. Could happen if new models, but if banshees are anything to go by its likely going to be an indirect nerf.. I don't have any feesable ideas that wouldn't wreck the game personally so I really hope the pendulum does not come around coz I'm really not a fan of seeing obviously broken stuff and making games unfun for opponents. Perosnaly I would like to see more synergy between wraiths and spirit seers/wraith-seers but honestly Im out of ideas.

Its seems the king for 9th so far seems to be the ability to cap objectives/remove objective holders while being able to move and spread out for the secondaries (engage on all fronts).

Shuriken Catapults need a drastic improvement.

Deathspitters should go to D2, Tyranid Warriors maybe T5 and at least 4 wounds. Boneswords with increased Strength. Genestealers 2D or D3D in combat with increased Strength.

God this thread is useless

 Insectum7 wrote:
Shuriken Catapults need a drastic improvement.

Deathspitters should go to D2, Tyranid Warriors maybe T5 and at least 4 wounds. Boneswords with increased Strength. Genestealers 2D or D3D in combat with increased Strength.

I've always felt tyrnaids having like no access to re-rolls in the re roll meta really hurt them.

Maybe the venom-cannon and old skool weapons will get a significant boost.
Gaunts would need to drop as well to be a true horde I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
God this thread is useless

And your post is useful how ?

Tyranids need alot.

All the big bugs need +1-2 wounds and 6+ fnp, carnifex need +1T or armor, Heirodules need a major point reduction (i dont mind them being weaker than knights, but they shouldnt cost more than 2 lemon russ battletanks).

Genestealers and broodlord need a 4++ instead of a 5++ and toxin sacs should let them wound all non vehicles on a 4+ like poison works with all other factions. The toxin sac change would fix hormagaunts too.

Lictors need a rule saying you can only hit them on a 5+ at range.

More psychic powers too.



Custodes just need flat 2 damage on their melee weapons and +1 wound. the vehicles need all 2+ armor saves with no points increase.

What would your faction need in order to compete in the world of a 18pt 2W tac marine?

Not much more than it needed to compete in the world of the 20pt 2W Intercessor.

I'll talk about Sisters since they're what I'm most interested in running currently.

With 2D Heavy Bolters, match-ups against Primaris-heavy Marines may actually get easier.

2-shot Multi-Meltas make Retributors deadly and Zephyrim get a solid boost from +1S Power Swords.

They're honestly mostly there already. Having spent the last year and a half playing against a 2W Marine-meta, I think most players are prepared for it.

There are a lot of buffs that I can think of that have been expressed for Tyranids already in this thread.....

But I will wait and see what the first two codexes really do. I'll take any buffs to get on par with whatever they get.

GSC, haven't played them this edition yet. Was really disheartened with them late into 8th and the transition to 9th felt like a kick in the nards for them. But we will see... probably be one of the last codexes again.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
God this thread is useless

In the top right hand corner of your screen, the big X marks the door.

So, for Eldar.
Where to begin.
I'm OK with Farseers, warlocks etc. They should be buffing, supporting characters, nothing more.
Autarchs need a little more punch, but this can be handled mostly by better Warlord Traits and relics. Power sword going +1S is OK here, although I'd prefer to switch to a better relic sword.
Avatar needs to be immune to flame and melta weapons again.
Phoenix Lords need models and become literal badasses. I won't go into each individual one, take too long. Lots of room for improvement. jain Zar is a fantastic model with crappy rules, needs to change.
Shuriken catapults need range boosted to 24"
Guardians don't need to be changed stat wise, although I would allow a squad to add a warlock character again that can only cast Runes of Battle powers (maybe only allow 3 choices..Conceal, Protect, Quicken) onto his own unit (and these powers can be recast by other warlocks in the army in same phase).
Remove Storm Guardians (sorry, not sorry)
Dire Avengers (and other aspects) go to 2W, and +1 Attack to both warriors and exarch. Improve Exarch powers that were added in Phoenix Rising so that choice is better.
Rangers. -1Ap to sniper rifle. Cloaks add to saves as normal, -1 to hit, or if already in cover, can only be targeted if within 24" range (or less). (would need to be more specific with cover rules being what the are, but too long to write out here)
Banshees...+1 W, +1S on power sword, +1 attack to basic and Exarch.
Scorps, +1W, Scorpion chainsword +1S and -1AP. +1A to both again.
Fire Dragons. +1W, new melta rules, +1A, 5+++ vs flame and melta weapons.
Wraith constructs mostly the same. Ghost swords should yield +2 Attacks since currently no reason to not take axe and shield. Wraith cannon has minimum D3. D-scythe to 12".
Windriders..fine really, just improve shuriken catapult and make cannon D2.
Vypers..same, just improve weapons.
Swooping hawks. +1W, +1A, +1S to guns. Exarch weapon is -1AP and D2. +1s power sword. Grenades inflict MW on 5+, not 6.
Warp spiders. +1W, +1A, Deathspinner D2. Powerblades +1S
Shining Spears. +1W, +1A, Mostly a decent unit as is.
War Walkers. Improve weapons.
Wraithlord...Gjostglaive min D3. Oh, and add a Wraithlord character that is not Forgeworld.
Support Weapons. D-Cannon min Dam 3, Vibro needs a new rule to replace the cumulative +1 to wound rolls.
Reapers. +1W, +1A, Otherwise, well equipped if priced appropriately.
Falcon...good tank already.
Spinner....likewise
prism...likewise
serpent...solid
Crimson Hunter and Exarch...solid
Hemlock...solid
Wraithknight (how much time we have?). Honestly, this needs a separate thread.

As for weapons, increase range on catapults, increase cannon to D2, Scatter laser to Heavy 8. brightlance to be similar to whatever they choose to do for lascannon.

Better Craftworld traits.
Alaitoc be similar to Ravenguard rules (lazy, but haven't really thought about this one much)
Biel Tan +1Ld Aspects, Aspects may choose 2 Exarch powers from list (similar to Phoenix Rising) without using CP.
Iyanden...6+++, Reroll 1s to wound for wraith constructs (basically wrath of dead attribute in Phoenix Rising)
Saim-Hann..additional -1AP on shuriken weaponry for bikes, vypers, vehicles. reroll failed charges for bikes.
Ulthwe...+1 to cast for psykers, Guardian keyword +1 to hit in shooting phase.

Then just better warlord traits and relics.

That's just off the top of my head.

I just want DE to get back some of its old heroes and unit special rules. Reavers with Impact hits along with its normal melee would double its damage (actually moreso) but in a good fun way for the game, and rework traits/HQ's

Drukhari

- Subfactions can mix and share buffs again
- HQ's auras work in and out of vehicles
- HQ on Bike, the Baron, Vect, etc..
- Special added rules like Tides, Sacred Rite, etc.. Example: "All poison weapons for X datasheets gain +1 to the wound roles", "Heavy weapons are treated as assault" etc.. a set for 6 different ones you can pick from to further specialize your army
- Bring back many of the special rules for DE units, Reavers impact hits, Beasts as 1 unit and cheaper horde type, Court as real body guards (Allows LoS! only for Archons)
- Make some gear more useful and unique, Example Shock Prows "If a vehicles with this charges an enemy Vehicle, that vehicle can not move the next turn"
- Make poison better in general, Splinter cannons SHOULD have at least -1ap as well

The army over all should be able to specialize better and hit harder but remain glass, they are the masters of Raiding, they should act like it.

At this stage I'd just like them to be reintroduced w new models!!!









BTW, its SQUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTSSSSSSS!

 Argive wrote:
And your post is useful how ?

 bullyboy wrote:
In the top right hand corner of your screen, the big X marks the door.

I think he means that there's already a thread for this.

Racerguy180 wrote:
At this stage I'd just like them to be reintroduced w new models!!!









BTW, its SQUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTSSSSSSS!

Well yes, existing is where it has to start....

2W tacticals at 18 points are not an issue. 20 point intercessors are bigger problems for my nids due to the additional attack.

What really creates a problem for nids is that we don't have access to multidamage melee weapons on our infantry, so we have to rely on the bigger guys to take care of those marines in melee, and this is currently hindered by eradicators and the new multimelta. If it weren't for those weapons, I wouldn't honestly see a big issue.

Since those 2 weapons exist though, what I think that nids really need in an increase in durability on some of our beasts, possibly by increasing the thoughness.

Tau:
Durability outside of Shield Drones - a pile of drones is no fun for anyone but Tau have little durability for points cost without them. I'd prefer a drones-as-wargear solution, kinda like a cherub. Besides that their obsec troops are flimsy. The only other infantry option is the stealthsuit, which is very expensive.
Something done about their accuracy. Revised Markerlights - they're just entirely too expensive now. Even simply making MLs themselves more accurate would be a big boost. Or just give BS3+ and let markerlights be basically vestigial.
Some way to contest objectives in your turn - Without any units that can actually do a charge and be successful they don't really have the ability to get on an objective in time for your next turn. Perhaps even just strats to let Breachers or Crisis shoot in lieu of melee attacks when they've made charge or something.

Competitive PL and pts costs, what every faction needs to compete, a Brimstone Horror despite its diminutive stature can be amazing at 2 pts and useless at 5, a mighty Warhound titan can be amazing at 400 pts and useless at 2000.

Rules should only be changed to further a narrative, not to increase balance (with the exception where options cost 0 pts then the rules have to be changed because changing pts is not an option).

I could wishlist all day for restoring stuff that Drukhari have lost, but I think one of the most fundemental needs is to decide what Poison weapons are supposed to do, and rework them to function appropriately.

Tyranids need a big boost in T if they're going to keep their garbage armour saves.

Ynnari needs mixed detachments.

As a CWE player, what do you have to fear since you're already focused around killing Primaris type models anyway? You can easily construct a list with D2-3 weapons absolutely everywhere in it that will MURDER 2W Marines no problem.

I keep saying this, over and over again, but not much actually changes because of this, especially because all of these units are seeing points increases. You were never fighting 1W Oldmarines to begin with, it was always 2+ Primaris. NOTHING CHANGES. In fact, if people start bringing Oldmarines, they're doing LESS damage to you in return while also seeing an increase in points. This is not the unbalanced buff in power that people seem to think it is, especially as we have multiple indications and statements from playtesters that Doctrines and Angels of Death are getting nerfed/changed heavily.

So as it is currently when playing vs Marine armies..... you take the exact same Mechdar units that murder Primaris marines no problem. However now you're taking piddly little bolter fire in return, rather than Stalker Bolt Rifles or mass ABR spam.

I mean gak, I want Eldar re-designs too, but in terms of actually killing Marines the army is fully stocked and well equipped to do it. Where things fall down is survivability, but with Oldmarines being less lethal on average and changes to Doctrines and AoD.... in terms of actual gameplay balance right now the army has little to fear from 2W Tacticals. I welcome it in fact.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Argive wrote:
And your post is useful how ?

 bullyboy wrote:
In the top right hand corner of your screen, the big X marks the door.

I think he means that there's already a thread for this.

Exactly and it was literally top thread at time of posting. And it’s all basically a remix of this thread anyway https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791046.page can we like chill on these?

Daemons need a better shooting phase-even Tzeentch.

Daemons also need more multi-damage stuff. Reliably multi-damage. I know my Plaguebearers can do multiple damage with psychic powers, the Locus, and rolling 6+, but that's not reliable.

"What would your faction need In order to compete in 9th?"

Inquisition: Units. A codex that isn't a reprint of a reprint of a reprint of the index list. A troops choice perhaps...

Sisters: More opponents getting substantive price hikes to go their their new 2 damage weapons, and no (sadly inevitable) chapter approve price changes wiping the difference out again.


As has been said, a combination of +wounds and +cost have made regular marines... poor primaris marines? I would guess the thing everyone should be watching out for is if one of the off-brand marines (GK, rubrics, whatever) get away with a marginal rather than meaningful price hike.

Increase in tyranid survivability could be accomplished in several different ways:

Increase toughness across the board
Increase armor saves across the board
Synapse gives 6+++ to all units in range
Increase wounds across the board
Synapse gives - 1 to hit with ranged weapons to all units in range
Synapse reduces damage done by weapons by half, rounded up

Other options would be to decrease points cost 20%+ of every unit in the codex.

Currently the army is short range shooting-melee focused but bad in melee and has no survivability against either. The majority of their guns are also trash for killing anything tougher than guardsmen.