Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is it just me?
Or the new Stonehart cow units are lame...

I think the mountains with trees growing out of the shoulders is an odd choice... but other than that It's a fantasy miniature.

If I were to buy one... and I wouldn't... but if I were, I'd probably try to do something different with the mountains growing out of the shoulders and be ok with it otherwise.

Yeah, mountains are an obviously cheezy one.
-"Stone themed units, what shall we do"
-"Dont know sir, this is a hard one"
-"Hmmm lets put... rocks and mountains in the design!"
-"Brilliant sir! what school did you go to to learn such depths of character design?!"

For me bigger problem is that I just do not understand a thematic connection of a Beatmen upright cow with the "High-Elfs" I know they are not HighElfs, yet they LOOK like they are kin.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think the mountains with trees growing out of the shoulders is an odd choice... but other than that It's a fantasy miniature.

If I were to buy one... and I wouldn't... but if I were, I'd probably try to do something different with the mountains growing out of the shoulders and be ok with it otherwise.

Nothing's "growing" out of it.

These are constructs shaped for a Spirit of the Mountain to inhabit them. The rocks and even the shrubs on them are meant to reflect the mountains themselves.

The fluff for them was actually fascinating to read about. The Alarith(Mountain) Temples are devoted to specific mountains, with the Stonemages creating these constructs where the mountain can inhabit the construct if it feels the battle in question necessitates it. Avalenor, the Stoneheart King is the exception to the rule having just shown up at some point much like Teclis' companion Luna Sphinx. Each of the major Temples(Wind, River, and Mountain respectively) are described as having some kind of construct/Spirit deal. The final Temple(Zenith) seems to be less attainable and so there's no Spirit mentioned for them yet.

Wind has a 'fox-faced spirit, with streamers trailing behind' and 'wielding a massive bow'.
River's Spirit was not really well described, other than being a massive water elemental that crushed an Orruk horde within its mass. Since then though, the river whose spirit it was has become more violent and its currents turbulent because of the rusting Orruk armor in its riverbed.

Plus if you look at the 3D you can see that the mountain sticks out to the back its not a flat "hill" formed right on the shoulders.

Personally Luminoth are not for me at this stage. I don't like them enough to want to buy into them and I've got enough armies as-is that even if I really liked them I wouldn't have room to collect them.

That said I don't dislike the models. I also think that some units, like the elite horn-helmed infantry won't look as bad as people think when they see the actual models. Sometimes close up photos can make some details look different or wrong compared to when you see them in reality.


That said that cow model would make a great base for a converted Keeper of Secrets.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think the mountains with trees growing out of the shoulders is an odd choice... but other than that It's a fantasy miniature.

If I were to buy one... and I wouldn't... but if I were, I'd probably try to do something different with the mountains growing out of the shoulders and be ok with it otherwise.

Nothing's "growing" out of it.

These are constructs shaped for a Spirit of the Mountain to inhabit them. The rocks and even the shrubs on them are meant to reflect the mountains themselves.

I am sorry, And? Miniature mountains and trees on shoulder pads still look lame.
There are many many ways to draw a character with (Spirit of the Mountain) without actually drawing an actual mountain. That is just bad design imho



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Plus if you look at the 3D you can see that the mountain sticks out to the back its not a flat "hill" formed right on the shoulders.

Personally Luminoth are not for me at this stage. I don't like them enough to want to buy into them and I've got enough armies as-is that even if I really liked them I wouldn't have room to collect them.

That said I don't dislike the models. I also think that some units, like the elite horn-helmed infantry won't look as bad as people think when they see the actual models. Sometimes close up photos can make some details look different or wrong compared to when you see them in reality.


That said that cow model would make a great base for a converted Keeper of Secrets.

Yeah, some of the units might look pretty cool for sure.
I was talking about the overall bad design for the faction

Think of it this way - its a very classic fantasy design and GW's designs are very born in the 70-80s era of fantasy.

 Overread wrote:
Think of it this way - its a very classic fantasy design and GW's designs are very born in the 70-80s era of fantasy.

Fair enough
That works.
Still, bad design is a bad design, classic or new.
70-80s era had some great designs and some bad designs why bring bad the... nm

Nevermind the mountains
I was talking about Thematic connection of a Cygor draped in Elven armor.
Is that an also classic GW 70 design? Taking a chaos unit, putting "good" armor on it? Or taking a noble knight and putting ork armor on it?

I saw the unit and was like,,, Are Elfs and beast men are now allies on this new unit?

 Overread wrote:
I also think that some units, like the elite horn-helmed infantry won't look as bad as people think when they see the actual models. Sometimes close up photos can make some details look different or wrong compared to when you see them in reality.

And I'm pretty sure that unit will look just as dumb if I ever see it in person.
I don't mind the hammers one way or another, but those stupid looking helmets....
A) Will definitely prevent me from buying the unit,
B) And if i were buying the unit? Then I'd have to do a head swap (with spearmen? archers? cav?).

Or you could just clip off the horns, clean up the helm and use the helmet as is. Chances are that works pretty well

I quite like the big cows. I seriously dislike the cow-warrior elves, but that's because they retain the worst elements of the lame wfb High Elves more than the basic spear and bow boys somehow.

 Overread wrote:
Or you could just clip off the horns, clean up the helm and use the helmet as is. Chances are that works pretty well

I looked at the sprue. I think that'll be more effort than it'd be worth.
I'll wait & see if the other luminith player gets any before I make a final decision though.

Kind of like them. They do something new and bold, with a strong mythological flavour. They feel like they really belong in a high fantasy, realm-spanning game of conflict like AoS.

Will I buy them? Dunno, if I'm honest. Lovely figures, rather expensive.

New and bold, sure. As the "new High Elves" I was hoping for something...I don't know...more graceful? If you were going to pick one place to put hammers and giant goat creatures in Sigmar the new elves are probably the last place I'd look.

New? Well, obvs.

Bold? It's certainly a new direction, and a stronger break with the past than orruks or fyreslayers. I'm ok with the Greek-style troops rather than yet another post-Tolkien vibe.

The bull theme is a callout to Minoan culture, although I would have gone with axes (Labyrinthos means "the place of the axe" according to the guide we had at Knossos, and axes seem to have had a strong symbolism from the Neolithic onwards).

Or maybe Slaanesh. Who knows right now?

I'm glad that GW doesn't feel bound by design choices it first made three decades ago, and if you thought that the "AoS version" just meant "the same but a little sharper" then you haven't been paying attention.

The bowmen are silly, and the cow-god think is very static, otherwise they're very nice. The Griffon thing that Teclis is attached to is lovely though. A homage to the Sphinx Mysterieux sculpture by Charles van der Stappen?

I mean really, if you don't like them, that's fine. I find them graceful - how would you change them? Maybe I just don't have any prior investment in what I think High Elves should look like?

The thing is that cows are good and miniatures that involve cows are good.

More cows, i say.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
New and bold, sure. As the "new High Elves" I was hoping for something...I don't know...more graceful? If you were going to pick one place to put hammers and giant goat creatures in Sigmar the new elves are probably the last place I'd look.

Thank you! lolz


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Momotaro wrote:
New? Well, obvs.

Bold? It's certainly a new direction, and a stronger break with the past than orruks or fyreslayers. I'm ok with the Greek-style troops rather than yet another post-Tolkien vibe.

The bull theme is a callout to Minoan culture, although I would have gone with axes (Labyrinthos means "the place of the axe" according to the guide we had at Knossos, and axes seem to have had a strong symbolism from the Neolithic onwards).

Or maybe Slaanesh. Who knows right now?

I'm glad that GW doesn't feel bound by design choices it first made three decades ago, and if you thought that the "AoS version" just meant "the same but a little sharper" then you haven't been paying attention.

The bowmen are silly, and the cow-god think is very static, otherwise they're very nice. The Griffon thing that Teclis is attached to is lovely though. A homage to the Sphinx Mysterieux sculpture by Charles van der Stappen?

I mean really, if you don't like them, that's fine. I find them graceful - how would you change them? Maybe I just don't have any prior investment in what I think High Elves should look like?

I was in the hobby for the art and the models after I read Malus Darkblade, never played warhammer fantasy but owned many models, then watched AoS endtimes end the fantasy community with broken hearts and book burnings on youtube. After AoS, got more models but never played the game, no time plus no one to play with. So A) I was never around the old warhammer B) I got Zero attachment to the original style and direction of warhammer C) I never played or followed the lore after AoS
My Whole point is purely about the character design!

What I would of done? Probably not used hoofs and horns in the character design because those make units look like beasts of chaos. With the right color scheme Lumineth will look like a transition faction between Demonets and DE.
At times I kinda get a glimpse of understanding of why the original fantasy community was in such distress about the endtimes/AoS direction.
Perhaps I would of been in a bit of a distress along with the old players if I knew that in future there will be a faction of Elfs who will look like Beastmen worshipers with their own bovine beast.

I couldn’t disagree more. The cow mountains are a beautiful design to me personally. Great shapes used and overall good sense of scale with very reserved but well constructed details for a model they could’ve gone ham on. And the interesting fluff for why they have the mountains on their back (which are very 3D in person) and why it’s cool.

I’m not saying people have to like it, but to say it’s a bad design I’d say is incorrect.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
New and bold, sure. As the "new High Elves" I was hoping for something...I don't know...more graceful? If you were going to pick one place to put hammers and giant goat creatures in Sigmar the new elves are probably the last place I'd look.

Mountains? Hammers? These aren't high elves - these are dwarf elves. They're wannabe dwarfs. If they could grow beards, they'd have them down to their knees.

Ah well, one Old World rivalry settled!

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I couldn’t disagree more. The cow mountains are a beautiful design to me personally. Great shapes used and overall good sense of scale with very reserved but well constructed details for a model they could’ve gone ham on. And the interesting fluff for why they have the mountains on their back (which are very 3D in person) and why it’s cool.

I’m not saying people have to like it, but to say it’s a bad design I’d say is incorrect.

Not a bad design...
Why is it good design?
"beautiful design to me personally"
"Great shapes"
"overall good sense of scale"
"well constructed details"
"interesting fluff"

I am sorry none of those are part of what is important in a good design.
Character however is very important (imo there are no character in these units because it mixes 3 different themes into one)
Difference in scale is important (Especially the Spirit units are equally proportionate in relationship between the feet torso head, that is a boring design, for a good design ratios pull up some character designs from Blizzard)
Rhythm is especially important (That is a relationship between the busy and the plain. The spirit units are absolutely festooned with dangly bits and pieces of detail equality spread all over the models, at least Alarith have plain robes to balance the design)
Composition is paramount important (That is the overall dynamic of the model, and I must say that GW always nailed composition spot on with all the sculpts)
And ultimately the Silhouette is extremely important (That is the cutout shape of the unit that is the most important element in any game completely fails in the Lumineth and especially with the Spirit units. For the importance of the readability of the silhouette find Valve's design direction for Leaf4Dead)
All of these are important for the design because they make sure the object reads well, especially at a distance! If the object does not read well then it is bad design no matter how cool the fluff is. Because the design deals with the "Impact" (impact is a term referring to the strong composition design, color, and tone that immediately catches the eye) Even though it can have all the "Payoff" (Payoff is a term referring to the richness of information and details present when the image is examined closer) it still fails as a good design. The bovine theme at a distance reads like chaos units, and the mountains the the trees on the should-pads do not even read as such at the distance. You know what reads well? the Horns the hoofs the hammers read well.

That is why I say these units have bad design. I am not convinced of a good design by "Great shapes" and "overall good sense of scale" when I see that the silhouette is failing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crispy78 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
New and bold, sure. As the "new High Elves" I was hoping for something...I don't know...more graceful? If you were going to pick one place to put hammers and giant goat creatures in Sigmar the new elves are probably the last place I'd look.

Mountains? Hammers? These aren't high elves - these are dwarf elves. They're wannabe dwarfs. If they could grow beards, they'd have them down to their knees.

Ah well, one Old World rivalry settled!

I though same lolz
Is't Bovine mountain spirit thing a Native American Mythos?
Or Wołogór, Mountain Spirit’s helper Polish inspiration?

 Momotaro wrote:
- how would you change them?

Style their helms more like either the spearmen/archers/cav. I'd keep the cow horns on banner poles/banners/maybe as designs on breatplates/shields.
I just don't like the tall spindly helms with antlers sticking out from them. Looks cool enough on their mage, but not so cool on infantry units.

And Mothsniper can go on all they like concerning why a design is/isn't bad. But at the end of the day I still won't like these helmets....

ccs wrote:

 Momotaro wrote:
- how would you change them?

Style their helms more like either the spearmen/archers/cav. I'd keep the cow horns on banner poles/banners/maybe as designs on breatplates/shields.
I just don't like the tall spindly helms with antlers sticking out from them. Looks cool enough on their mage, but not so cool on infantry units.

And Mothsniper can go on all they like concerning why a design is/isn't bad. But at the end of the day I still won't like these helmets....

I agree with horns on banners.

I only go on when called out
My purpose is never to change opinions for it is a monumentally a useless task, but instead find folk alike of mind.

Crispy78 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
New and bold, sure. As the "new High Elves" I was hoping for something...I don't know...more graceful? If you were going to pick one place to put hammers and giant goat creatures in Sigmar the new elves are probably the last place I'd look.

Mountains? Hammers? These aren't high elves - these are dwarf elves. They're wannabe dwarfs. If they could grow beards, they'd have them down to their knees.

Ah well, one Old World rivalry settled!

But dwarves are either on fire or flying in the sky now. Or losers that need to hang out around humans and elves to do anything

I happen to like really like the Alarith a.k.a. Lumineth mountain aspect elements. So much so that the Lumineth went from a faction that was kinda nice and looked to be a nice Order counterpart to a more classically based (infantry, cavalry, archers) army to my S2D warriors and knights to a faction I actually wanted to collect. Just today, I picked up my pre-order of 4 boxes of Stone Guard and 2 boxes of Avalenor/Spirit of the Mountain.

I think the models are rather well designed with a number of Earth based cultures nicely balanced with traditional (read: Tolkien/Gygax) fantasy yet wholly original. The faction so far very much leans on classical Greek befitting such a Apollonian faction of arrogant intellectuals. At least as much my limited knowledge of Greek mythology knows. The Stone Guard and whole mountain aspect in general does have a sort of Hindi/Tibetanvibe lending them a very monk/holy man impression made more concrete with their flowing robes and capes. Which further presses the idea they people are smart son-of-a-guns yet seeking humility and self-reflection. All told through the hinted choices of the models. I even like the 3-stinged bows which as a sort of 'This is Spinal Tap' impression of regular bows just go to 1. Our bows go to 3. Ya know, because they are thrice the archer.

Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain have a serene, tranquil sort of power to them that belies the grace of their lithe forms. Despite all the banners and ribbons whipping in the wind which could symbolize the chaos and Chaos of the Mortal Realms that surround them. About the only element I don't like is the reds used for the Mountain diorama up on the broad shoulders and back of Avalenor which I think betray an otherwise calmness to the model. Although, this fury of the included warm colors make sense given the hero aspect of the lands of Hysh given form. Not necessarily as apparent without some knowledge of the AoS setting, but an sort of subtle indicator none the less.

On a more personal note, I have grown extremely weary Fantasy always leaning heavy on dwarves for anything earth aspect. Well that or lumpy/crusty poo-men called elementals. I see no reason my elves would attune themselves to mountainous nature as if forest/woodlands nature is the only sort of nature elves are allowed to. On that note, I doubly appreciate that the GW attempting to circumvent at least a little bit of the standard earth, fire, water and air elements going with mountain, zenith, river and wind. It isn't much, but I do think the distinction is important.

This thread and countless discussions on the internet here and elsewhere have divided opinions on the Lumineth and especially the Alarith. I believe Age of Sigmar is a sort of crossroads between traditional Fantasy (WHFB very much included), the kitsch and somewhat daring setting that heavily mixes myth and deities into the active sequences of consequential events. The Alarith being a sort of vegemite is kinda fine by me as all three of my 40k armies also has someone playing the same army down to the subfaction. It will be nice to have an army that even if their are 4-5 other Lumineth players (and I think there are), mine will stand part as the only Ymetrica one. After all, if we all liked the same thing we'd all be playing Ultramarines.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I happen to like really like the Alarith a.k.a. Lumineth mountain aspect elements. So much so that the Lumineth went from a faction that was kinda nice and looked to be a nice Order counterpart to a more classically based (infantry, cavalry, archers) army to my S2D warriors and knights to a faction I actually wanted to collect. Just today, I picked up my pre-order of 4 boxes of Stone Guard and 2 boxes of Avalenor/Spirit of the Mountain.

I think the models are rather well designed with a number of Earth based cultures nicely balanced with traditional (read: Tolkien/Gygax) fantasy yet wholly original. The faction so far very much leans on classical Greek befitting such a Apollonian faction of arrogant intellectuals. At least as much my limited knowledge of Greek mythology knows. The Stone Guard and whole mountain aspect in general does have a sort of Hindi/Tibetanvibe lending them a very monk/holy man impression made more concrete with their flowing robes and capes. Which further presses the idea they people are smart son-of-a-guns yet seeking humility and self-reflection. All told through the hinted choices of the models. I even like the 3-stinged bows which as a sort of 'This is Spinal Tap' impression of regular bows just go to 1. Our bows go to 3. Ya know, because they are thrice the archer.

Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain have a serene, tranquil sort of power to them that belies the grace of their lithe forms. Despite all the banners and ribbons whipping in the wind which could symbolize the chaos and Chaos of the Mortal Realms that surround them. About the only element I don't like is the reds used for the Mountain diorama up on the broad shoulders and back of Avalenor which I think betray an otherwise calmness to the model. Although, this fury of the included warm colors make sense given the hero aspect of the lands of Hysh given form. Not necessarily as apparent without some knowledge of the AoS setting, but an sort of subtle indicator none the less.

On a more personal note, I have grown extremely weary Fantasy always leaning heavy on dwarves for anything earth aspect. Well that or lumpy/crusty poo-men called elementals. I see no reason my elves would attune themselves to mountainous nature as if forest/woodlands nature is the only sort of nature elves are allowed to. On that note, I doubly appreciate that the GW attempting to circumvent at least a little bit of the standard earth, fire, water and air elements going with mountain, zenith, river and wind. It isn't much, but I do think the distinction is important.

This thread and countless discussions on the internet here and elsewhere have divided opinions on the Lumineth and especially the Alarith. I believe Age of Sigmar is a sort of crossroads between traditional Fantasy (WHFB very much included), the kitsch and somewhat daring setting that heavily mixes myth and deities into the active sequences of consequential events. The Alarith being a sort of vegemite is kinda fine by me as all three of my 40k armies also has someone playing the same army down to the subfaction. It will be nice to have an army that even if their are 4-5 other Lumineth players (and I think there are), mine will stand part as the only Ymetrica one. After all, if we all liked the same thing we'd all be playing Ultramarines.

I am all for spreading Elves into other elements other than forests, and dwarfs into something else but mountains, infact one of the most enjoyable experience for me was to run scenarios of random variations of factions, classes, and elements in AgeofWonders3 like a (Ice sea Dwarfs that mount small ice wyvrens, or mechanized gunpowder subterranean Elf spider riders) But! AoW3 is well designed... I agree with you of everything but the well design part.

Last thing I will say on the matter of design
There are 2 types of artist who use multitude of colors on their palette! The ones who know exactly what they are doing and the ones who don't have a clue.
Same for designers, There are 2 types of designers who mix many many themes and styles and concepts into one character, the ones who know exactly what they are doing, and the ones who aint.

We get it, you don't like it.

It's pretty clear that no matter how many times the full concept is explained to you? You're more interested in "LULZ COW ELFS IS DUM!" and memes than actual discussion or understanding why things are.

I'm personally a big fan of the Alarith. I'm ready for the other three Temples now.

While the cow elves are not my cup of tea, I find it very hard to define objective criteria to determine what is a good design in terms of looks and what is not (functionality is a different story designwise). I think it mostly comes down to personal taste. Some people at GW seemed to like them and quite some hobbyists also do.

there's a lot of people around here who have real trouble with telling the difference between their opinion and objective reality.

i think bits of the new elves are amazing and like the cow monster very much but am not going to buy one because i don't have the money to spend on any more projects.

 Max Moray wrote:
While the cow elves are not my cup of tea, I find it very hard to define objective criteria to determine what is a good design in terms of looks and what is not (functionality is a different story designwise). I think it mostly comes down to personal taste. Some people at GW seemed to like them and quite some hobbyists also do.

Exactly, that is the thing man, there is an objective criteria. Readability is one of many for example
It is hard to separate objective part form personal preference.
Composition, Impact/Payoff, Silhouette, Rhythm, Dynamic, Repetition, Scale Ratio, Contrast Just like in painting, or sculpting, or music


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daddyorchips wrote:
there's a lot of people around here who have real trouble with telling the difference between their opinion and objective reality.

i think bits of the new elves are amazing and like the cow monster very much but am not going to buy one because i don't have the money to spend on any more projects.

Don't people have trouble telling the difference in general.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We get it, you don't like it.

It's pretty clear that no matter how many times the full concept is explained to you? You're more interested in "LULZ COW ELFS IS DUM!" and memes than actual discussion or understanding why things are.

I'm personally a big fan of the Alarith. I'm ready for the other three Temples now.

"I'm personally a big fan of the Alarith"
And that is your subjective personal opinion, and good for you!
I just do not have the need to attack you personally for it liking them.

What concept? So far it has been (great shapes) (I'm personally a big fan) ( bits of the new elves are amazing)
Those are not design concepts.

Interestingly when there is nothing of substance to add one must misrepresent my position to make a point.
If my explanation of why things really are in a design starting from composition to readability is not clear then I I will try to communicate it in a different way.

I get it, you like it no matter how many times good design is broken down for you. And that is fine
As if people do not go to school and get real degrees in design to tell the difference between good and bad design, otherwise there would be no need to go to school for it!

But what do I know about good design, its not like studied it or anything.

As much as you talk about good and bad design, this does come off more as a whine/troll thread. You haven't posted anything worth discussing as of yet.